Yes...it will make the B&W's sound better. Adjusted properly, the mids and highs will sound better, but the subs shouldn't be obvious at all.
Waiting on 802D3 to arrive -- Will I need a sub?
It's a rainy gray Sunday afternoon here in Atlanta today. I probably have better things to do but I've spent hours reading and researching trying to ascertain if I will need a subwoofer(s) once my B&W 802D3 arrive here in another week or so.
I can't decide and so I've decided to try posting here and crowdsource an answer, ha ha!
My goal is to create a system that will allow me to listen to 2-channel music for hours on end without fatigue. The room is my living room and is a quasi open floorplan. It is around 24 feet long by 18 feet wide. There are 10ft ceilings with an open stairwell back behind the seating position and an opening to my dining room that adds another 400 square feet or so of floor space.
Previously I've had B&W 804D2 towers with two B&W ASWCM10 powered subs. I've sold the towers and the subs and am waiting on 802D3 to arrive as mentioned above. The 804D2 absolutely had to have the subs. The bass just wasn't there without them unless I really cranked the volume up.
So as I sit here I'm wondering if I made a mistake in selling my subs already. With the 802's will I miss them or will those guys have me covered for 2 channel listening?
If it's likely that I will still need a sub (or 2) what do you guys think would be a good match to the 802D3?
Here is the rest of my equipment in case its helpful in offering an opinion:
Thanks!
Bryce
I can't decide and so I've decided to try posting here and crowdsource an answer, ha ha!
My goal is to create a system that will allow me to listen to 2-channel music for hours on end without fatigue. The room is my living room and is a quasi open floorplan. It is around 24 feet long by 18 feet wide. There are 10ft ceilings with an open stairwell back behind the seating position and an opening to my dining room that adds another 400 square feet or so of floor space.
Previously I've had B&W 804D2 towers with two B&W ASWCM10 powered subs. I've sold the towers and the subs and am waiting on 802D3 to arrive as mentioned above. The 804D2 absolutely had to have the subs. The bass just wasn't there without them unless I really cranked the volume up.
So as I sit here I'm wondering if I made a mistake in selling my subs already. With the 802's will I miss them or will those guys have me covered for 2 channel listening?
If it's likely that I will still need a sub (or 2) what do you guys think would be a good match to the 802D3?
Here is the rest of my equipment in case its helpful in offering an opinion:
Preamp:
· PS Audio BHK Signature Preamplifier
Amplifiers:
· Qty. 2: PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblocks
Inputs:
· PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC)
· VPI Traveler 2
· Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge
· Apple TV 4K
Power:
· Qty. 2: PS Audio P5 Power Plant
Other:
· Pro-Ject Tube Box S Phono PreAmplifier
Speakers:
· Bowers-Wilkins 802D3
Thanks!
Bryce
83 responses Add your response
I’ve read through all 52 posts and I believe that there has not been a single mention or query of/regarding the type of music and the music genres the OP listens to. I don’t have a pro- nor a no- sub position. Asking for general educational information.......is type of music listened to, a factor? Thanks. |
Hi, You have had many people response to your question & I haven't read through them all so this may have been stated already, if anyone feels the same way I do. I don't think your 60.8's are up to the task of driving the 802's to anywhere near their potential. They are world class amp's, I own 100.5's but the the 802's are demanding. Maybe not at lower levels in a smaller space but that isn't what you have. Obviously see how they do first, you may be happy. But I really think that even if you are happy you'd be sold if you then hooked up a more powerful amp & made a comparison. As far as the subs...they will give the 60.8's an easier time if you use a crossover. I'd rather spend the money on bigger amps first. They take up less space & you won't spend forever, if you are like me, trying to blend the subs to the mains, no easy task. For me the subs would be secondary. But, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a sucker for big heavy monoblocks. As much as for looks as sound! Good luck |
@gcobb22 --> you just voiced by current biggest fear. I just purchased the two Pass Labs XA60.8 here on Audiogon two weeks back so they are brand new to me. That is actually what started this whole revamp of my system. I then ordered the 802D3's which are to be delivered this Tuesday. I've been somewhat concerned that I've gone and gotten too much speaker for the amps. If that turns out to be the case then it will have been a very expensive mistake to be sure. There's no undo on those amps though, so I need to find a way to live with them for a good long while. Thanks for the feedback! |
@joey_v -> Sorry about that. Your posts have been very valuable. I'm sorry I didn't respond directly, but I was definitely listening to your posts and hanging on to every word. The fact that you own the 802d3 plus have the additional experience of the 800's is really a great testament to my expectations. I don't have space in my room the way that it's oriented to accommodate the 800D3. I may be pushing it with the 802's even. I'm going to try to link to a photo I just took to illustrate. I think the 802's are going to fill that space to each side of the cabinet with nary any room to spare. If I ever did need subs then I think I'd have to think about installing them sidewall. In the photo, if this works.. there are the 804D2's I have now. I have an appointment window on Tuesday for the 802D3's. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd7waxvxb3sgews/IMG_0643.JPG?dl=0 Thanks for all your feedback. I'm also glad to hear that you feel like I won't have any issues with the 60.8 driving them! Thanks, Bryce |
Bryce @brycethompsonYou have a very nice room, I see a lot of DWR pieces including the Eames chair and I believe that couch. We have similar couch/sectional in my game room. I've been wanting the Eames as my listening chair but I feel like it's just 3 inches too short. Anyway, I see the room, you will not need a sub with the 802D3 in the room. And yes, the 800D3 would be too much for the space. I think you will be fine, and the XA60.8 is fine. I run the 802D3 with a Boulder 2060 600w amplifier, class A. And yes, it is a superb piece of art. You will be fine. |
I believe your concern about subwoofer in addition to the 802D3 is unwarranted. You will be a-ok. Just be aware that the 802D3 bass is clean and quick. I had the 802D2 in my room and the bass was rudimentary by comparison. Also, I own the Olympica 3 and the bass is also lumbering by comparison. I believe the 802D3 bass is similar to those that you get out of a comparable Magico. Quick, fast, textured. |
System is pretty good at this time, still a few bits and pieces and the room to complete with regards to acoustic treatments up front. The Boulder 2060 is superb. But so is the source being Emm Labs Dac2x + TSDx transport. The cabling is fantastic, I run Audioquest Wel Signature speaker wire with Wel Signature power cords and about to have AQ complete my 3 sets of AQ Wind XLR interconnects. I used to run a PS Audio P5, but after a little bit of testing, I found it stifled the sound. I am now trying out a Torus RM15 next week. Good luck with your system, I am sure you will enjoy it. Keep us posted. |
I’m with @mr_m on the preference for a sub or two, regardless almost of whatever main-speakers may be used. And I wouldn’t skimp on the size of the sub(s) either as I feel you really can’t overdo capacity, but any sub capacity can be dialed wrongly. The bigger the displacement area the less cone movement is required, and the more effortless and enveloping the overall sound will potentially be. The bigger issue, apart from proper implementation with the mains, may also concern how to high-pass the main speakers the best way possible (if one even chooses to high-pass them to begin with), so not to let the filtering here impede on the qualities of theirs. I’ve only heard the smaller sibling, the 803D3’s, and for what they are (my preference in "sound-type" lies elsewhere) they’re rather extraordinary. I gather the 802D3’s could add to this sensation and be very capable as standalones as well, but a pair of large, quality subs (preferably sealed) - with proper care invested in their implementation - could really lift the presentation substantially, and make for an enveloping, versatile, scaled and dynamic sound. A pair of Funk Audio 18.0C’s, for example, would cost you from close to $5,500, but would be very worthwhile. Myself I use SVS SB16-Ultra’s, and a pair of those would set you back $3,800, but they’re massively capable as well (the SVS SB4000’s would also fit the bill here). In light of the investments thrown about for cables and other accessories - (de)coupling, room treatments and what not - subwoofers and their cost could be the lesser issue in light of their sonic impact, certainly if one were to ease back on the expense of named accessories instead, effectively totaling for a macro-change and -improvement of an altogether different magnitude. Spent your money where it really matters and involves physics; conversely accessories can set you back with crazy amounts of money that oftentimes only involves change (if they’re not detrimental) rather than betterment. |
Nice room... after seeing it, I think the low end will be more than adequate in your space - especially after seeing where the left speaker is placed in the corner. You will likely have tremendous bass build up there. If you’re not listening extremely loud with extremely heavy bass content, Your amplifiers will be just fine. Could you get more from the 802’s with more power? ... absolutely! But I think you’ll be thrilled. Some tasteful room treatments and proper bass trapping would be of more benefit than anything else I’d venture to guess. |
I have three of the 802 d3s across the front of my listening/theater room. They sound great. I also have a DB1 subwoofer that I ordered at the same time. Honestly, I am still fooling around with the DB1 settings and also the lower frequency settings on the MX160 to get punch from the sub. But as to your question, the 802s sound really great even without a sub. I have played them both ways, with and without subs and I can tell you I here subtle differences while playing them. I listen to many different types of music and movies through them and they do sound great without a sub. Everything from dave mathews to star wars has been played through them. I would just keep them from the back wall about a foot or so. Set them up and see for yourself if you need a sub. |
I just came into this conversation and would like to make a comment. I would highly caution against many statements that say the XA60.8 will not be enough to power the 802 D3 speakers. The XA amplifier is a full Class A amp, which means it is biasing the output stage to push a constant 60 watts at all times, even if the speaker is not using it (the un-used power in a Class A ends up being heat generated by the transistor through the heat-sink. Many conventional Class AB amps will be biased into Class A for a very small amount - typically anywhere from 1 watt to 8-10 watts. (Sometimes it can be biased as high as 20-30 watts). However, it will never require as much A/C power as a 60 Watt Class A monoblock. The power supply has to be significantly over built on a Class A amp to be able to provide 60 watts of current without any drop in voltage. On a conventional Class AB amp. the amplifier will draw a constant amount based on it's Class A bias (1 watt to 8 watts). Music transients can push into the 200-400 watt area for less than a second, but then the 60hz A/C voltage is still enough to bring the voltage back up in the power supply capacitor bank. It's a completely different requirement. If you look at the weight of the XA60.8 monoblock, it is 88 lbs, which is a very large monoblock amplifier. The Parasound JC1 is only 64 lbs, but it will output 400 watts and this is easily able to drive the 802 D3. If you compare weight (which really is a representation of transformer weight and heatsink), the weight of the XA60.8 Class A amplifier equals the weight of the X260.8 monoblock amplifier exactly (both are exactly 88 lbs). If you look at the common weight of a 100 watt amplifier, you will find that the weight is typically something like 20-40lbs per channel. I would say that a 100 watt amp may have problems driving the 802 D3. However, something like the XA60.8 would theoretically have no problems because of its significantly large power supply. If someone here has actually driven a set of B&W 802 speakers with a Pass XA60 amplifier, please comment on your opinions for the ability to drive the speakers. For all others who are speaking mostly from Class AB points-of-view, please hold your comments unless you have experience with a full Class A amplifier. In my own theory, I don't think the XA60 will have any problem at all driving the 802 D3 speakers. |
Just a quick follow up. Both the 804D2 and the 802D3 are 8 ohm speakers with a minimum impedance of 3 ohms. Both are 90db efficient. In my opinion, you will have absolutely no problem driving either speaker with the XA60.8 if you are listening in the 0-60 watts area. The problem arises if you want to play the speakers so loud that you require more than 60 watts. In this situation, the XA60 will run out of gas because the power supply is only able to push the 60 "constant" watts required for Class A operation. If you tend to turn up the volume very loud, you might find that you want a higher power amplifier. |
@auxinput, you and several others who told me not to worry were absolutely right in regards to the Pass Labs amp power. These XA60.8 monoblocks have no problem at all driving the B&W 802D3's. There is MORE than enough power to drive them. I've found that I've been sitting with the volume around 45-50 (out of 100) on the preamp for my listening sessions so far. If I get the volume above 65-70 then it's really too loud to listen to for any length of time. 75+ is enough to get the cops called on me, ha! For the first few hours after getting the 802's, I kept the dual B&W ascm10s subs in the room using the highlevel inputs. I would listen to music with them on and with them off. I tweaked and played with the levels, phase, extension, etc.. but I didn't feel that those particular subs added anything at all to the sound. The 802's frequency response is just as low as that of the subs, but I thought that it might help with pressurizing the room or giving some extra oomph to the low bass. I just didn't pick that up at all with my ears and thus removed the subs (and quickly sold here on Audiogon). These 802's have no problem handling musical bass in my space. They hit low enough to shake the room when I ask them to. In running bass sweeps, my neighbor (and best friend) who was inside his kitchen texted me saying that he could tell I was enjoying the new speakers. That all said.. I do also use the space for some television and movie watching (maybe 30%) and am currently somewhat infatuated with the Dolby vision content on my LG OLED also in the room. For movie watching, I am thinking about adding in an ultralow sub (maybe a B&W DB2D or a Funk Audio 21.0L) just for home theater but I'm pretty certain that no sub would ever be warranted in this space for discerning music listening. I'm always experimenting though so of course I would test that out, ha. Again.. let me say I have enjoyed all the feedback from the community here. This thread ended up making the popular conversations section! I'm kinda proud, lol. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice and contributed to this great discussion. Ps. I ended up with a different preamp. The PS Audio that I thought I was going to integrate ended up being on backorder. So after much research, I decided to go with a Mcintosh C1100. I couldn't be happier. It's a beauty and enhances the sound of my system. I tested going directly from the DAC into the amps and then putting the McIntosh between them and love what the C1100 adds to the overall sound. Pss. I'm going to post some photos for you guys to show how things turned out in my next post. |
Thanks bluesy41 and @joey_v -> as promised :) Here is a photo of how it all turned out: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9k440vblmme900/brycethomason.jpg Final (I think) equipment list: Preamp: McIntosh C1100 Amplifiers: PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock L PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock R Speakers: Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 L Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 R Inputs: PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC) Apple TV 4K VPI Traveler 2 Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge Power: PS Audio P5 Power Plant L PS Audio P5 Power Plant R Television: LG Oled 65" 4K - OLED65B7A Connects: Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (Preamps to Amps) Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (DAC to Preamp) Bluejeans Cable? (Turntable to Preamp) Audioquest Cinnamon 3M Optilink (Television to DAC) AudioQuest Vodka HDMI 2M (AppleTV to Television) Audioquest 6’ Rocket 33 (Amps to Speakers) Pwr Cables: Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator L) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator R) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator L to Amp L) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator R to Amp R) Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator L to DAC) Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator R to Preamp) Other: AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan L AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan R |
The bass response of an 802 is considerably better than an 804, no question. But whether you still might need a sub is another question. I have 803ds and use a HSU sub because I have the vent ports on my 803ds plugged to tighten the bass image, and the sub is set up for below 40 Hz and to supplement certain bass lean program material. My room is 30 ft by 30 ft and I have no problem filling this room. Look, you can always set up your new 802s without a sub and see if you like the sound. If you are a fanatic for 20 Hz organ notes or movie sound effects to shake you room, you may end up with a sub. |
I see this thread was revived, so let me just post a follow-up. I kept the system exactly as described above for 45 days and did some great listening. There were moments of pure nirvana for me. That said, I did end up adding a Bowers-Wilkins DV2D single sub to the system. I think it came down to personal taste and auditioning with and without the subwoofer in the mix, I always favored it with the sub. The DV2D blends perfectly with the 802D3 (as you would fully expect). It sounds great both with the music I listen to and with movies alike. I don't have anything on the shopping list now, which is amazing. I think I'm going to be happy with this for quite sometime. Final list of my quest: Preamp McIntosh C1100 Amplifiers PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock L PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock R Speakers Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 L Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 R Bowers-Wilkins DV2D Inputs PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC) Apple TV 4K VPI Traveler 2 Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge Sony Playstation 4 Pro Console Power PS Audio P5 Power Plant L PS Audio P5 Power Plant R |
brycethomason, I have a question, not an answer. Did you add a subwoofer to you 802d3's, and if so which one (or two), and via which connections...pre-amp or amp outputs ? Do you have a sense that the d3's require no bass amplification with high resolution sources, but might benefit from a bit of the 'reverb' (due I surmise to 'flabbiness' of the kevlar speaker cones) which the d2's brought to lesser recordings ? Thanks for any insights. seventies |