VPI Classic hum

I agree, it should be. I've contacted VPI and also have spent over $1000.00 for various fixes and things. The thing is, that, if you had never heard what I'm hearing with my table, you wouldn't notice it, even now( with all the fixes). The problem comes from having heard it and now I'm locked in on it. I was able to make dead quiet recordings from using my LP12 with any cartridge that I had (Grado's , Shures, etc). This is not possible with the Classic. During my trouble shooting of the Classic, I was able to borrow an outboard motor assembly. With it connected to the Classic, all of my recordings were dead quiet. As a result of that and using a stethoscope on the plinth to check for motor noise I was able to confirm the source of my problem and come to a conclusion. Again, don't get me wrong, with the Soundsmith, and 300RPM motor the table is very quiet but not dead quiet in my listening environment, it's very enjoyable to listen to. However, I want and need to make dead quiet recordings, so I will be moving up to an Aries 3 like the gentleman did earlier in this thread. I've learned a lot on how to mitigate the noise to an acceptable level without spending a lot of money like I did and if someone wants to know they can email me.

I have the same vintage Classic TT and have been using a Benz Glider without any hum. Suggest you send your table into VPI and have Mike take a look at it.

I am, it will be in exchange for an Aries 3.

M~

Wow, almost 18 months since I started this thread and it's still going on.

I've read the replies since my last post. It appears the motor mounting is the culprit. I'm sure VPI would have rectified this issue on all the Classics since then.

Macster - You'll be glad to know I've stuck with the Aries 3. One change, though, I ordered a Classic all-metal platter for it. This takes the Aries 3's bass to Classic level.

An A-B I did last year before giving up the Classic (and using the same Clearaudio Maestro cartridge) showed the Aries 3 to have more air and detail, and a bigger stage. The Classic had deeper and weightier bass. I switched platters (just a case of drop-in) and then the Aries 3's bottom end clicked nicely into place, the way I like.

Funny thing is, I then ordered a Classic platter from VPI, and when the unit came, it wouldn't fit on the Aries' spindle! Anyway, they did send a whole set - spindle and mount, so I remove the ones on the Aries and fixed the whole platter set.

So far, I'm pretty chuffed with the Aries 3 - I have a Dynavector XX2 MkII on it.

Would be interested to know how far sonically the Classic 3 is from the original model. I spied a new Classic 1 at my dealers, with the new finish plinth, and was tempted to give it another shot... what's it about that bloody Classic, then, ay? Must be all that wood that's calling me!

Just thought you folks might want to know where I've reached in my VPI adventures.

Cheers!

Still no hum on my Classsic rig. The only thing I hear is my wife screamin' to turn the music down. LOL

Bifwynne: Mine didn't, too, at first. I think not every unit was plagued by this issue. If yours is working fine, I envy you, I still love the Classic's looks and sound.

Mine didn't at first, but it does now. Again, if you never ever heard what I'm talking about, you wouldn't know that it's there. For the most part, it's covered up by the music. It's only apparent when you are listening to the table through headphones. However once you've heard it, you can pick it out without fail.

Bassraptor, thanks for the info about the platter/bearing interface. I'll be keeping my platter, whole arm assembly, feet and transferring them to the Aries 3. Let me know If you come up with any additional info.

M~

For those of you who are suffering in silence. Get the following: Danco #36 O-Ring pn#96750 $3.00 and Surface guard felt washer kit pn#9425--- $1.96 from Home Depot or where ever.

1. Put the Danco washers under the motor around the mounting screw holes. The motor will rest on the washers.

2. Take the smallest felt pad and place them on top of the motor felt side up, midway between the mounting holes.

3. Tighten (just snug) everything down using a star pattern.

Why this?
Because it helps to isolate the motor.
It's cheaper than buying a 300RPM motor ($140+ shipping.
It works... to a point.

If it doesn't work, the washers and felt pads make nice Xmas gifts.

M~

Had a similar problem with a VPI Scoutmaster using a Dynavector 20XL along with a Cayin Phono One preamp. Replaced my Monster Cable interconnects with VPI shielded cables. Connected the ground wires to a water pipe. Hum problem disappeared.

Gvandyke2: You're lucky, then, that the hum was traced to the interconnects. I tried a number of shielded interconnects before tracing the actual cause of the hum in my (former) Classic ...

Bassraptor

You started a thread that just won't die. I just emailed Mike at VPI and told him that I would be exchanging tables next year. I don't want to risk any shipping disorders during this holiday season.

Anyway, I will be keeping my arm and the entire assy. Does the Aries 3 come with the phono junction box? I also intend to keep the feet and the platter. They will be getting my table and the upgraded motor assy. Is this similar to what you did? Also, I will be setting up my table on my own. I have it down to a science.

M~

Macster: Haha, so it seems, like the hum on my Classic!

I did a whole lock-stock-and-barrel change. The provided arms with each deck don't seem to be drop-in exchangeable units, unless, I suppose, one removes the arm base/mount as well. I ordered the metal platter later. Yes, the Aries 3 has a phono junction box.

There were some issues setting up the arm initially because I wanted to use the Dynavector D17MkIII cartridge, but it was just too light even with headshell weight! Anyway, to cut a long story short, I ended up with four different counterweights from VPI, and eventually still traded up to a heavier cartridge, the XX2 MkII ...

I'm not that much of an expert at setting up, I've got it down to a point where there seems to be no glaring discrepancies in the results... one day, when it's raining hard, I supposed I will get down to further fine tuning it ...

The Aries 3 in on order through my dealer. :-) I hate to see the Classic go, but the hmmmm is too aggravating. Even though it's really low I can still hear it. Thanks for all the help, but it's time to move on.

Happy holidays, and stay away from unhappy people.

M~

Update

My Aries 3 will be shipping at the end of next week. I'm having the feet from my Classic-1 install on it.

M~

Bassraptor

RE"I did a whole lock-stock-and-barrel change. The provided arms with each deck don't seem to be drop-in exchangeable units, unless, I suppose, one removes the arm base/mount as well."

I remove the entire arm and mounting assembly, this included the round mounting base and the phono junction box. Also, I had them to transfer the feet from my Classic to my Aries. I'm pretty good at setting up tables, hopefully this will go well. I'm thinking that I can have it set up in about 15 minutes or so, because everything should drop in. But as they say "stuff happens." Well, I'm looking forward to bringing this to a close.

M~

I received my Aries 3 yesterday and set it up today. The motor hum is G-O-N-E. It took a long time, but it was worth it. Thanks again to Bassraptor, Bifwynne and Macdadtexas for all your help.

M~

The Aries 3 has its motor separated from the plinth, so the Classic's earlier issues won't apply. I'm enjoying my Aries 3 with Classic platter and Dynavector XX2 MkII cartridge. Hoping to get a newer Classic some day.

Hope you're enjoying your system.

Meanwhile, let's hope this 31-month-old thread will finally stop cropping up!

It happened! I just got myself a new Classic 1 yesterday... again! It's the latest version, of course. I can't really explain what got into me! Yet to unbox it. Waiting for a cartridge. If the same issue crops up, I'm writing to Harry and Mat.... But I really hope not....Because, you know, you only live once...

Yeah, I know, that last part didn't make much sense to me, too... But what the heck!

No one would have any problem if you use balanced interconnect

Sigh...

Sorry Bassraptor, but not sure I understand your most recent posts. Does the new Classic also present the same hum problem? If so, I really find it hard to understand. I own a tricked-up Classic 1/2 plinth with a Classic 3 tone arm base and S-S wand. I've had two hum/bass ringing problems that were unrelated to the TT.

My first problem related to using a Grado cartridge, which is not news. A different cartridge fixed that problem.

The second problem related to a bass feedback loop relating to an "el-cheapo" IKEA kitchen table my wife gave me to put the TT on. The kitchen table is close to the speakers and transmitted a bass rumble into the TT. The "fix" was to mount the TT on a heavy maple butcher block board, which in turn was placed on two Styrofoam bricks. I have ideas for a better fix, which includes ditching the crummy kitchen table, but that's for later.

Bassraptor, I have no doubt that something is going on with your system. I just don't think it's a defect with the TT.

Hope you can sort it out.

Bifwynne... I've yet to set up and play the new Classic 1. My old Classic 1 had a problem. It's all explained in one of my posts following the original post. It was the TT itself. So I traded in that Classic for an Aries 3, which has been hum-free so far.

But I've still been lusting after a Classic. An opportunity emerged last week to get another one...the new version with the raised plinth... And I'm hoping it will be hum-free...

Glad to hear. Please let us know how you fare.

I'm a very occasional lurker at Audiogon, and I came upon this thread while looking into maybe upgrading from my VPI Scout Signature TT (with SDS speed control) to perhaps a Classic 3. As my handle suggests, I do studio quality LP to CD transfers and remasters, often for commercial release. The persistent, if very low level these days, 60 Hz hum I've gotten from the TT and cart (a Shure M97xE with a JICO SAS stylus; no better sound for anything like the money) is mostly what has driven my thoughts about an upgrade. (BTW, I can easily and precisely notch out any 60 Hz + harmonics hum with software so it's not in my finished product, but still...) While I haven't read every word of it, I've found this thread useful and edifying, and I thought I might add some different suggestions.

As implied, I don't use this TT for general listening. My system setup is such that the signal goes directly from the TT via unbalanced Monoprice ID#2680 RG-6/U 18AWG 75 Ohm Coaxial cable (I auditioned several interconnects up to $200/pair and none were as good, and for $7.50/pair!) to a Musical Fidelity M1ViNL phono stage directly connected with balanced cables to a Mytec Stereo96 ADC and then via Toslink to my DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). Thus I am able to very clearly SEE in real time with spectral analysis, as well as hear, exactly what I am getting and the effect of any change I make.

Cables, and their position, ARE important, and it's rather surprising how evident the microphonic effects can be when the cable from the TT is moved even slightly. Cabling is also a significant reason why I've been considering moving to a Classic 3, as that can be had with balanced outputs which have the potential to eliminate essentially all spurious RF and AC pickup.

But the other hum-killer that no one seems to have mentioned in this thread is balanced AC power. With balanced AC, instead of a 120v hot and 0v neutral leg as is normal, there is 60v 180º out-of-phase on BOTH AC legs, which will naturally cancel most AC noise. Converting one's system power to balanced AC is easy, but it requires a big, heavy, well-designed and expensive transformer, and prices start around $1500 and rapidly go up. Equi=Tech is hands down the best manufacturer of such equipment, and THEY AIN'T CHEAP at all, but boy is it worth it if AC hum is a problem. Their website is full of good and valuable information.

BTW, another often unnoticed source of AC hum are these damned compact fluorescent light bulbs. They'll generate a whole LOT of hash and can cause interference if they are anywhere near your equipment. Running them with balanced AC helps that tremendously as well.

A couple of things that no doubt go without saying around here, but I'll say them anyway. First, hum and RF pickup are completely separate and different issues from acoustic feedback problems. I don't have acoustic problems because I play my monitors at a very low level while transcribing an LP. Also, DO NOT LIFT GROUNDS, ever, which people sometimes do to fight hum. Proper grounding is important, including from the TT to the system, but it's especially important if balanced AC is being used. ALL modern electrical equipment is compatible with balanced AC, but if there is a fault, you could get hurt or worse if your grounding is improper.

Well, enough for now. Hope this helps.

RE" Meanwhile, let's hope this 31-month-old thread will finally stop cropping up!"

HA!

M~

Macster - No, it won't! Lol...

Lp2Cd - Interesting you should bring up the issue of balanced AC power. In fact, that's how I've been running my system for years. I've got a dedicated 32amp spur running from the mains to my room and the balanced transformer is plugged into this, from which my system is powered. So far, so good, no noise ... except from my first VPI Classic which appeared to be feeding motor hum into the cartridge via the LP surface. And I never lift grounds.

It's just physics. The motor is too close to the cartridge. They either need to shield the motor better or move the motor farther away. Sure certain carts will be more immune to the effects but you should not have to worry about this on a product this mature.

The latest versions of the Classic tables now have the motor mounted at the rear of the table and farther away from the cartridge. Perhaps this helps with some motor/cartridge hum interaction.

Harry has designed a new rear counterweight that eliminates the headaches that are expressed on these pages. I have replaced the simple dropped counterweight that first was shipped with my VPI 3D arm, and Harry has since shipped me his new weight. It took me less than 10 minutes to get the arm squared away with greater perfection than I ever could have done with the old weight. I am pretty sure this new counterweight would work with any VPI arm - not just the 3D. Get in touch with VPI.

Brf - Yes, I'm think replacement of the motor in the new version of the Classic 1 will counter that issue.

Stringreen - How much does that new counterweight cost?

Sarcher30, I quite agree. As far as I'm concerned, it is unconscionable that a product as mature and pricy as a VPI turntable should have a "hum" problem. That problem should have been fully addressed years ago. Just as much as any other fundamental design flaw, it significantly degrades the overall performance, and respectability IMHO, of an otherwise fine product. To perhaps make matters worse, both surprisingly and not the output of the VPI SDS is unbalanced even when it is plugged into balanced power. *Sigh*

The above complaint not withstanding, utilizing balanced AC for the whole studio, including all fluorescent lighting, reduced the overall phono system 60 Hz hum by about 15 dB. It's still there and I can see it and measure it, but it's now at a level that is essentially inaudible.

(BTW, my computer is not on balanced AC. It's unncessary. The computer is both physically remote and electrically isolated from the rest of the system by using Toslink connections which are, of course, non-conductive.)