Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?
@best-groove, if one uses threaded rod and a couple washers and nuts in each of the three mounting holes, you can lift the entire unit up a good 12", leaving room directly underneath. This is why the cables harnesses are so long - so the main board can be turned over with component side accessible, laying on the work surface below the suspended unit. Most DD's can be worked on this way. |
Hi guys @lewn I read many times this and other threads to understand the problems of TT-101 and I reported all the information possible to the repairman but the conclusion was a failure. Unfortunately, the TT-101 is a complicated and delicate turntable, each operation requires to mount everything and try, disassemble and reassemble disassemble and reassemble continuously with the risk of breaking a cable or other; all this is frustrating as well as increasing the hours for waste of time. I also read the comment of chackster for the cost of Audio-Reparatur.de 1000 € is madness ........ you can look for another TT101 running for that price and keep the other TT-101 dead for spare parts. Unfortunately the hourly costs of a repariman are high all over the world ..... it would be necessary to find a retired repairman who does it for passion at a flat rate. |
@lewm Tuchan’s technician in
Regensburg, Germany: www.Audio-Reparatur.de He stated the estimate cost at 1000 Euro for repair. thanks @halcro |
Sadly, Lew, a fair number of serviced units aren't in calibration either. Freeze spray helps, as does not being afraid to twist the board back and forth a good 30 degrees or so. This will likely cause more joint issues, but they were about to become issues anyway. This is why, when I was working on such things, I charged so much for the TT-101. It takes a lot of time when your goal is to try to ensure that particular unit never sees your bench again. BTW, I think the TT-101 service manual is excellent - far better than the SP-10MKII. Granted, there are no troubleshooting flow charts, but they do go through great pains to explain how the circuit works. The downside is you have to take the time to actually understand it. @chakster, you likely have a fractured joint or trace on your board that is opening after the unit warms up. The self-shutdown is due to an over-current condition in one or more of the drive amps. This protection is there to prevent things from burning up should the motor be stalled. |
Those of you who live in Europe might consult "Thuchan", who posts here from time to time. He evidently found a genius somewhere near where he lives (Bavaria?) who has a comprehensive understanding of this circuit and was able to repair Thuchan's TT101. Thuchan's real name is Eckard; I have no idea where he got the moniker he uses. He is a very nice guy. I sold him a chip to help in the repair of his TT101. If your TT101 needs a push start or a touch of the platter, it most likely is NOT running optimally, even if the tachometer reads out correctly. Sounds to me like it might at least need to be calibrated, because the symptom suggests that torque is suffering. This is JP's lament; most of us do not know the true potential of these DD turntables, because most un-serviced tables are out of calibration after 40 or more years. Best-groove, I got in trouble with Raul and Downunder for harping on the need to replace electrolytic capacitors, but in your case I would ask the repair guy why or how he has ruled out a leaky capacitor as the cause of or a factor in the repair of your unit. After all those hours of effort, it would take only one or two more hours to just do it. Other known issues: (1) micro-fracture cracks in the PCB that can cause short circuits if they cross traces in the PCB. (That was the problem in my unit, which you say had problems similar to yours.) You almost need a magnifying glass to see these defects. Your tech needs to know where to look for these, based on the nature of your problem. (2) the PCB itself absorbs moisture in a humid environment which can cause malfunction. I got these tips from JP, after he worked on mine. |
@best-groove I was lucky because my second TT-101 which i bought as a donor was better than first one! Actually it is working, but to start the platter i have to touch it by my hand, and then everything works just fine. Funny, i bought this turntable as a junk. My first TT-101 that i bought as working unit (not junk) and paid more for it, does not work correctly (as it was described earlier), i mean it works fine, but only for 30 minutes (more or less) and then turned to "stand by" mode when the platter stops energising. -The JVC Victor service in UK is one of the options, and communication is good. -German service is another option, but the communication is not that good. -JPjones is propably the best option, but he's in NYC -There is another person who can fix it, but too far away in Australia. |
@chakster News for your TT101? My TT 101 did not solve the problem of power loss with the slowing of the revolutions. I heard the repairman a few days ago and he seems to want to give up; too much time lost to solve the problems that have been solved at 99% (I entrusted him to him in July 2017) too many hours spent and an expense account that could rise dramatically even more if you had to keep looking where the defect is . So many welds are reworked and redone, but the problem remains, no capacitor replaced, his thought does not accuse the capacitors for this problem; 100 may be the reasons for this last flaw and from what I understood the problem could also be in the engine. Without a working TT101 to have on the side to make the measurements it becomes impossible for him to go on; even the service manual does not help him, he says it’s bad, there are no all indications for the measuring and calibration points, there are no indications to solve the problems such as the drop in laps; the service manual of the simplest Technics SP 10II is much better. I’m desperate to hope to bring it back to life before starting my restoration :( |
I think the point of this thread, most of all, is that we don't have to give up on our vintage DD turntables purely for reasons of their having aged into obsolescence and unrepairability. In general, they can be brought up to date functionally, and they can be repaired if malfunctioning. In other words, we are not living dangerously. Prudently, maybe, but not dangerously. |
Laying here on the couch listing to Alice Cooper muscle of love vinyl on my 1976 DD turntable and liking it a lot. Yes I'm the original owner, never had it serviced and had it in storage for a few years (controlled environment) It may be that I'm very fortunate or lucky. I do agree with Lewn that sooner or later something will go wrong. I think he thinks in preventative measures which is sensible. I don't take his thought as terrorizing at all. The only regret I have reading this thread is that now I'm actively looking at tables that may replace the vintage table when it's time has ended. In any case I will have benefitted greatly from it's many years of service and I can tell anyone here it will be very hard to replace. |
Conversely I've been in to a lot of units for various reasons that appeared to be working fine that weren't. The good DD circuits are great at compensating for all kinds of ills. I've seen grossly miss-calibrated drives where the motor was fighting itself, and the owners heard no audible ill-effects. Every SP-10MKII/2A/3 I've been in has had physically and electrically leaking caps. The ones that would still spin seemed to spin fine, even though upon measurement they were clearly unhealthy. Some fare better, some worse. The bottom line for me when doing a refurb is that the average life of electrolytics is well established, testing each one isn't worth the time, and there's no way to predict when a cap may become marginal or flat-out fail. Failed or failing caps don't always physically leak or vent. I've never been an advocate of shotgun parts replacements in place of fault-finding and repair, and do caution amateurs that doing so can cause issues as they may indeed cause other failures in the process. Once in a great while I do end up eating some hours when replacing known problematic parts due to other failures. It's rare and I don't charge for that time. This isn't my day job, and my primary motivators are to ensure pieces leave performing at least to factory new levels, and to do everything within reason to ensure I never see a unit come back. |
By the way also, unless one has owned the DD from new, one cannot be certain that the electrolytics in the circuit were not already replaced by a previous owner, thus making it seem as if the turntable is defying laws of nature. That's one more reason why anecdotal reports should be taken with a grain of salt, albeit the Sony in question apparently is in the possession of its original owner. Cool. |
Ok, boys. i really couldn't care less what anyone else does. My advice is sincerely offered, and that's all it is... advice. A more conservative approach with which I would also agree is to inspect all the existing electrolytics for swelling or leakage of fluids, and then to replace only those that exhibit such signs. Obviously , any work done by an incompetent person could create problems, rather than fix or prevent them. That's always a caveat. Anecdotal reports that this or that DD has run apparently well for decades with no servicing prove nothing. It's a fact that electrolytic capacitors have a finite life span, like it or not. I do agree as I wrote above that regular use and controlled temp and humidity could greatly prolong trouble free service. Do you still have a problem? |
@lewm I have also seen your blanket statement that all vintage DD’s need to have all electrolytic capacitors replaced. I have asked my tech (same as Halcro’s) a couple of times and he has stated - NO. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it unless its a known problem. Replacing caps for no reason on 30+ year old boards/wiring can cause other issues as well as cost the customer $$ for no sound quality benefit. If a cap leaks, its easy to replace/fix is his advise. My Exclusive P10 had speed issues and my tech replaced most of the caps, however it ended if a IC circuit was the issue - nothing to do with caps. My Exclusive P3 stopped - it ended up just being fuse - he did not want to replace any caps as the table works perfectly. My Technics SP10 mk3 famous speed chip failed - my tech fixed it per JP’s advise to bypass the IC circuit till he makes his new IC chips. I did not even ask him to replace the caps this time. I agree with Raul on this one - no need for replace all electrolytic capacitors imo :-) cheers |
Dear @lewm : Normally in this and other threads but in the same subject your advise is the same : replace electrolytic caps and you terrorice the DD vintage owners with that not very good founded advise. If you take 10K vintage DD TT maybe you can find out 10 of them that could be with some kind of problems and I'm not saying in specific that those problems came from the caps but from anywhere. I own sevfal vintage DD TT from Denon, Technics, JVC and Pioneer and no single one even that were out of play for " hundreds " of years when I put to spin everything is fine. Many of my audio friends here what own are vintage DD TT and no one and I mean it never had a single problem with. I respect you as as I respect other gentlemans in the thread but I think that we don't have to be worried about especially with units as that @gillatgh 's Sony. Don't need to terrorice because of that. I own other vintage electronics and never never failed because electrolytic caps ! ! ! Things are that from some years now the refurbished vintage TT ( as after market analog " improvements " items .) is the best audio bus$sines of the last two centurys thank's to that " terrorice " with no clear foundations that as always only: " I like it more than before. ". Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Lewm, of course it was in jest as I'm more than well aware of problems that occur with vintage equipment. I can honestly say this piece is a lone survivor and I pray it stays with me. Other vintage from the era has gone to equipment heaven. I sympathize with all who lost a piece of equipment that they loved. It's almost impossible to have it repaired and cost prohibitive. I cannot see myself forking out big $$$ for a new table. Please don't take offense. |
Your Sony is probably still working because it has had one owner since new, who used it regularly, which is good for the longevity of the electrolytic capacitors inside. But they won't last forever. i hope your glee to read of other people's problems is a put on for fun. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that score. |
HI, Mouser, RS components or Ebay......there are a lot of online retailers! You can search the Panasonic series FC 85 ° range or rather the 105 ° range. From what I’ve found, Panasonic produces capacitors of all values, alternatively Nichicon, Sanyo, Elna .... but you have to check if these brands offer a large catalog of choice from the manufacturer you will choose. Unfortunately the present capacitors will be much smaller in size than those on the turntable; in 40 years technology has made giant steps for miniaturization. You will need to adapt them. Cheers |
You can buy all of them at sources like Digikey or Mouser Electronics, both have reliable supply of quality brands like Nichicon for an example - buy the high reliability 105'C ones. Don't get too hyped up about what "brand" to use Nicihcon is a very high quality capacitor. It'll be impossible to make a list without a sample of the TT101 at hand as the LS (Lead Spacing) and physical size of the caps are needed to get the "right" capacitor to fit on the PCB Here is a link to 5806 choices of Nichicon Capacitors at Mouser https://www.mouser.com/Nichicon/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors/Alumi... Best of Luck Peter |
@jpjones3318 very interesting your repair, do you want to describe how you solved your problems? Did you take photos to document all the repair? It would be very interesting to see how you repaired the engine. I am very convinced that the pivot oil will need to be replaced if you want to have the turntable in full efficency...for my turntable I will do this. @rwwear beautiful ........ already seen those videos several days ago, much has been said on an Italian forum. I think the engine (engine only) can cost about 8000-9000 €, but they are just hypothesis; until next spring (when it will be marketed) all enthusiasts will know the exact price. @chakster have you abandoned your intention to ship it to Wilkinson labs? We will see if I can solve the problems and it is ok I will report here what the cause was. cheers |
Here's the other side of the board: http://fidelisanalog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/IMG_1633.jpg |
Wow wow wow, great !!! All of you have both given great hope to get my TT running. Photography is very useful to understand a few things, on the internet there is no image of the TT-101’s engine content even on Japanese forums. This is the first picture of the inside of the engine I see. If it does work, it’s my wish to check and clean the pivot and bearing assembly to get some new oil, but I prefer to take a step at a time. Many many many thanks to all the advice, I will keep you up to date on developments. |
Three hall elements = hall effect sensors. They control the commutation. If the display blanks and the motor coasts to a stop, the over-current protection circuit is being tripped. This is a picture of the sensors - the windings are on the other side of the board. This should show enough detail that you can trace the wires connected to the sensors to allow you to test them without opening the motor. http://fidelisanalog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/09/IMG_1634.jpg |
Hi lewn, I have read many old papers and found the problems of your TT-101 written a couple of years ago. The result of my labors was to make an intermittent problem into a permanent one! Here is the failure mode: The tt comes up to speed based on the tach reading "33.33", but very shortly thereafter, within less than a minute, you will see readings suggesting the speed is off, 33.32 then 33.34, etc, typically. At that point, the motor shudders significantly and shuts itself down; the platter coasts to a stop with no brake action. The tach goes blank, except for the decimal point. This problem is what happens to my turntable. Did you find the cause of this, Mr .Thalmann told you what is the problem? Or better chance you can ask Mr. Thalmann how he repaired your turntable from this defect, what components had to be replaced? Cheers |
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Hi Lewn, the problem is that the cold engine has no power ...... the disch turns for a 50-60 seconds then slows down until it stops. To start it again, you need to help with my hand, keep the 33 laps for a 50-60 seconds and then stop coming back. The capacitors are ok, the power supplies are ok, the power transistors inside the turntable work ..... all the electronics have been repaired. I just want to know what electronic component is that marked on the service manual called "3 hole elements" and that it is inside the engine .... i do not want to open the engine unless it is needed. |
I still don't understand what you are observing. Let me guess: the turntable comes up to speed and works normally for "2-3-5-7 hours" and then... Here is where I lose you; does the motor stop driving the platter and then does the platter coast to a halt, or what? In failure mode, do all the lights go out, or not? In your second one-sentence paragraph, are you now saying that the problem was solved by re-soldering some joints? I will say this: If you acquire a vintage DD turntable that has not been serviced in a decade or more, the FIRST thing to do is to replace all the electrolytic capacitors. I say this, because leaky capacitors can cause damage to other vital active components that are not so easy to replace, and this can happen the moment you apply AC power. The term "leaky" refers not only to the fact that old electrolytics can leak fluids but also to the fact that old electrolytics can "leak" DC voltage. A functioning capacitor often is used to block DC from entering parts of a circuit where DC can otherwise damage associated components. Replacing the electrolytics as a last resort is, as we say in English idiom, locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. |
Hi guys Has anyone ever opened the TT-101 engine? I read on the service manual that inside the engine there are components called "3 hole elements" but you do not see any electronic components at the holes of the engine, and the service manual in several steps is very rough and is not as good as that of the Technics SP 10II Does any of you know what it is, what electronic components are in the engine or do you have any pictures to let me see? I think the problem of the low engine power is caused by some element "inside" the engine but if I open the whole engine then it is not possible to proceed with the moving motor in order to find the defective component. Cheers |
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Hi Lewn, The defect is that the engine rotates well and adjusts for a long time (2-3-5-7 hours) then inexplicably the motor loses its rotation and slowly rotates. I preferred to leave the electorolytic capacitors to be replaced last after having managed to solve all the problems. The problems were resolved brilliantly (there were just a lot of welds to be tapped) I had read in this 3ad that one or a couple of members had the same problem but did not have the time to search and understand in 30 pages as members has or had my own problem and know if they solved. |
I didn't mention potential problems with ANY old turntable, such as issues with the bearing and spindle shaft. Also, best-groove, it is probable that your turntable needs calibration. As I understand it, calibration involves equalizing the impulses derived in each of the 3 phases of the motor cycle. JP can elaborate if he is around. |
Dear best-groove, What do you mean when you say the "engine started to lose laps inexorably"? It would help if you can make the problem more understandable. However, I also think that it would be impossible for any of us to say categorically what is your problem, because the TT101 is such a complex beast. You need the services of a good technician who can assess the unit on his own bench top. There are known issues to be aware of: leaky, old capacitors (replace all electrolytic capacitors with new), bad control chip (possible but appears to be rare in actual experience), bad solder joints, especially around the eyelets (very high on the list), fractures in the PCB (mine and at least one other, but maybe not so common). |
Little news. I’ve solved all the problems of my TT-101, rotation, running led's, display, engine brake, speed adjustment and more. After 7 hours of proper operation, the engine started to lose laps inexorably. To start it now I have to push the plate manually, rotate regularly for some time then go back and lose speeds and slow down. The engine looks very tired and has no strength to restart. I read that another forumer here has the same problem but I can not locate her nick. Fractured this pcb as well as Lewn’s pcb? Ideas to solve the my problem? Cheers |
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