i will take more -and hopefully better- pictures of the kit in which any Platine owner can get a better clue.
Hi Tuboo,
Yes you should take better photos and make a better presentation to the audiophile public of your mod.
I am reminded of the new Wilson Audio marketing compaign for its speaker. While you could hardly 'see' anything, and certainly hear nothing, the responses have been more woo's and ah's. Now that's marketing for you. |
Hello Ledoux,
thank you for your genuine interest in the matter.
The Platine is indeed very interesting from an mechanically / acoustically point of view. the idea is utter simple and so brilliant. the paperclip as an invention scores highest.
the levitated platter can be done via opposed magnets or an aircushion. there was an TT (can't remember which make) who achieved just that by having a bath of quicksilver in which the platter floated. it had three motors to centre the platter.
nice idea too, but living with a couple of litres quicksilver in your living room is a very bad idea! it is very toxic matter.
yes in theory all will be parallel, base and platter.
we have to count in the machining tolerances*. i level my own Platine with a very accurate digital leveller but thats more due to the Kuzma Airline which needs extremely precise levelling and need of beeing exactly parallel with the platter. (boy did i spend time here to get that)
yes indeed the thread (or any drive) will impose instability and will impose a very low frequency resonance at the springs suspension.
the TT iself by its big mass is a very non-resonant beeing.
as said any mass above a spring suspension is instable, and vice versa.
with any TT the resonance or any deviation in speed etc will be magnified at the needle, and again magnified by amplification and speakers. so we have a perfect laboratorium to listen to anything bad happening at the beginning.
that's why it is so obvious that when discarding the thread drive (with a 'better' motor or whatever) everybody reports on having much better performance.
as said the impression is so strong that the stock motor gets the full blame in some cases. "throw it away !"
any Platine owner using the stock thread can very easily try out the 'solid base' experiment. put three wooden blocks or whatever under the Platine base and listen to what happens before and after.
with such sensitive arms like the Schroder or even the Airline it get's even more magnified.
such an experiment will give great insight, and will inspire to further investigate and maybe put a reply here :-)
the stock motor with this setup (and preferably with the special rubber o-ring) will give a speed accuracy and evenness that is beyond remarkeable.
i remember the moment that the most important mods got together and i re-discovered my own Platine yet again.
that moment i knew i was onto something.
i will take more -and hopefully better- pictures of the kit in which any Platine owner can get a better clue.
* with the stock Platine bearing and spindle i've measured 7/100th to 1/10th of a millimetre axial play at the perimeter (unevenness) and with my new bearing and spindle i measured 5/100th to 7/100th. this is done by further minimising tolerances at the bearing. if the tolerances between spindle and platter could be minimised too that figure would maybe drop (guess) to a 4/100th mm. with these tolerances different oil comes into play, thats why the VDH oil.
exciting message: i scored another 28 pristine Vinyl ECM titles at Ebay.. sooo many records soo little time.
|
Hi Tuboo,
The concept of the magnetic platter is that it would float free from the plinth of the TT with the only point of contact at the spindle. A part of your mod kit addresses problems that arises at this point of contact. Correct?
The opposing magnets will always be parallel to each other. As long as the plinth is level, then the platter should be level. The thread/o-ring imposes a lateral force on the platter which will disrupt the stablity of the magnetic platter. And part of your mod addresses the o'ring and the spindle problems. Correct?
Excuse my non-technical discription. But I just want to get a general sense of what you are trying to do. Because as you have said the concept of the Platine is brilliant. So much so, that a non-techie like me could grasp, appriciate, and 'buy' the concept at once.
How did you experiment while coming up with all the mods? I can't imagine you taking a part several Platines.
Again, thank you for your commnets.
|
Mr. Carr,
thank you for your reaction, inspiring to meet you here in a virtual way :-)
i think we share the same sort of inspiration and motivation.
as said it was not my intention to directly compare your work with mine, but show my own interpretations.
are the Connoisseur amplifiers rather called 'Connoisseur Definitions' or Lyra Connoisseur? (i'm sorry to see i mis-spelled Connaisseur)
i have a burning question left after the midday of setting up a full Brinkmann Balance TT at my friends place where i met the 4,2 combo for the very first time.
the Brinkmann cartridge has an ideal impedance of around 600 ohms as recommended by the factory.
the 4.2 phono offers 10K in a fixed way it seems.
i'm personally a firm advocate of loading down any MC to an optimal value. i know there is a trend towards 'open' -47K- loading.
is there any way to alter the 10K load inside?
we experienced still a somewat hyped up high frequencies and the bass could use some control too.
a typical impedance loading as i see it but pls advise.
again thank you for meeting here, and i'm curious if any poweramp will be accomplished in the future by Connaisseur design team.
i'm very inspired by the DartZeel designers on my turn.
that is breaking concept technology.
sorry for offtopic.
cheers;
|
Hi Marco,
my story is surely not meant to compare my kit with the exquisite Connaiseur amplifiers. here as well many interpretations are possible.
the tenor of it was to show that the reaction of 'Dertonarm' is maybe imaginable but not based on any experience with my kit. (never seen it)
it is wise to base judgements and opinions on experience not just looking at a picture and make up things.
his reaction tells me more about him than it judges my kit.
maybe you can agree to some point with that, maybe not, it's a free country.
Yes most experience better performance with a different motor. no they are not fools. did i say that?
thank you for valueing my kit. it has taken years on thinking and labour to finally get it right and look good.
i will take space here to share my experiences.
sure hope it doesn't get controversial, as i love the Platine like any other Platine owner.
as my white papers have already told i think that the Platine is a miraculous concept. (remember it is from 1977 or around) that any TT can span such a lifetime in basically the same outfit is more than a class act by itself, not much TT around who can follow that.
the Platine has never been an ultimately luxury TT as others are and although it can be set up quite easily with some understanding, there is fair gains in performance to be made with some more research and understanding.
i find it a real pity to see enthusiast Platine buyers in the first place, and see them sell their Platine within reasonable short time to find 'better' TT elsewhere.
the more pity it is to find reviews at the WWW stating that the Platine does 'bad' bass, has 'bad' timing etc. some reviews make really funny claims.
i went through some time with my example, and had to think about the design and concept too. (btw i come from a background in aircraft mechanics and engineering) so thru the years many experiences came my way too just by spinning records in a levitated way that is:-)
the DC operation is great and this mod can be easily done by some DIY work, or you can buy a luxurious battery pack from GT audio or others. recommended.
the rubber grommets which keep the stock motor in it's housing will loosen up fairly quick and need a small modification with some Teflon washers.
if those grommets loose up the motor will start to wander and cause severe vibration. any vibration just there is disastrous to speed and PRAT.
then there is the stock linen thread which is a less bad choice opposed to the stock rubber o-ring.
i used any imaginable thread as well, but the behaviours are all more or less the same. they stretch with varying temperature / moisture and the knot alone causes speed bumps.
it collects dust quickly and the drive pinion starts to build up dirt in it's V.
any deviation at that point magnifies at the other side: the platter. and it magnifies again 1000x at the needle.
so is the thread a 'bad' thing? i think it is a less good choice to drive any TT.
BUT.
more happenings into play for the total experience.
the Platine is a spring suspended TT.
it has pneumatic damping too and that is a fine concept in itself.
the 16 Kg platter in itself lies above the spring suspension. here it get's interesting and at the same time unstable mechanically.
the thread has many disadvantages in first place, and together with the spring suspension and the 16Kg quite a distance above the suspension things get 'alive'.
any loosening up of the thread or any speed bumps or any devation here will be multiplied by the spring suspension coming into resonance because of this.
this resonance may be 5 hertz or less.
so it is two unlucky things adding up, and if using the thread one can find himself fiddling again and again and still notice unstability. (those piano notes !)
so when reading at the WWW that some owners have 'thrown away' their stock motors because they are 'bad' and cause bad things to happen many Platine owners go that route soon and report that now that they have a different motor all is good. and that is a fact indeed. (it is not that the motor is so much better than the stock one, it is the tape drive which has zero flex and gives waaay less room for resonance of the complete TT..)
if the Platine is fixed at it's base the hassle -ie resonance- with the thread is actually solved for the biggest part. the thread still is no good choice because of the aforementioned aspects which stay.
if any owner would experiment with a solid base (which is easy tweak to try out) it would give much better insight to what causes and what happens.
the stock Verdier 0-ring is industrial rubber not intended to drive TT platters.
my kit has a specially made o-ring which has behaviours that overcome just these problems.
with fixing the Platine base the rubber 0-ring is a superb way of driving the platter and has great results as to timing and stability.
as these are magnified x1000 at the point of the needle it is easy imagineable what this does to PRAT.
that's why i state and humbly claim that it sounds like a direct drive now.
if any tekst is asked on the ball and spindle thing i'm obliged to sharing my thoughts on this as well.
the same as for any highend rig it is all the components which make the result. we never listen to speakers or amplifiers alone. it is the sum of it all.
the same accounts for the Platine TT.
it is not just the thread or just the motor.
there is a mechanically and acoustically dance taking place which is quite complex.
with my kit i adress many things and offer solutions.
feel free to try out some solutions i offer, there is nothing sacred about my kit and the things it does.
and pls try to take nothing too personally :-)
i'm the last one who would call a fellow Platine owner OR any audiophile a fool.
will put my reaction to Mr Carr under this.
cheers;
|
Marco,
I still use the stock motor, but with a GT Audio Battery supply. The DC supply has made a very noticeable difference. I have considered going for a new motor unit, but I'm very happy as things stand.
Charlie |
Hi Tuboo,
sorry, but to justify the price of your upgrade kit comparing with JCarrs Connoisseur is a nice try but far out. What is the tenor of this short story?
"...the stock motor is very good and causes no single problem anywhere"
I know some guys running a Platine and no one is still using the stock motor. Everyone tells about improvements changing the motor. Why? They are all fool? It's no serious answer to say all these guys have problems with their set-up.
However; pls note I don't like to value your kit. I only talk and write about things I've personally listened to and tested.
Marco |
My God, Tuboo! That was _extremely_ kind of you.
I feel both honored and humbled by your post, and motivated to do even better work in the future.
kind regards, jonathan carr (Lyra and Lyra-Connoisseur designer) |
Wow! Tuboo, thank you for your post. You have said quite alot. I for one will give the mod kit a closer look. |
" The kit contains of simple mechanical parts which do not involve any significant labor or parts costs at all. "
ahumm.
have had exactly the same feeling about a phono and line stage amplifier made somewhere in Japan.
it seemed like a simple aluminum box with some nice wooden front to me.
it contained some simple parts and looked nice.
but hey the retail price of the phonobox is 28000 euro alone! and you need the linestage 'box' to get any music at all which set you back another 28000 euro. seemed ridiculous for a little box with some simple parts in it. *it's just not fair*.
it seemed to me looking at pictures on the internet these boxes contain maybe a few thousand dollars of parts. (but i'd never seen any in real live)
so it happens that just 3 days ago i was in the opportunity to listen to these nice little boxes in their latest incarnations.
they were even smaller size then i thought they were.
56000 euro of preamp. not counting interconnects and powercords.
the Lyra Connaiseur.
and then the music played..
it made me realise in a split second that the designer (Mr. Jonathan Carr) must have spent all his time and effort for the last decade and surely even long before that to create such an extalted experience.
now i'm in full admiration and even humbled by the Connaiseur amplifiers. the question is not: are these too expensive? the question is: can i afford these?
it's very easy to opinion or judge from behind your PC and put interpretations and hearsay on AudioGon. it is another thing to speak from first hand / longer experience. that makes some posts and some personal reviews worth gold here, others less valuable.
i could explain and so justify the years of time and effort creating the Platine modification kit. could tell about the months of labour on parts and supplies. the simple idea alone.
the most brilliant ideas always seem to be too simple isn't it?
some audiophile friends who have followed me spending my time and effort on this kit said i'm crazy.
call it crazy but i cannot stop beeing enthusiast about the inherent qualities of the Verdier Platine which i own for almost 14 years now.
in passing time many truly expensive TT reached my ears and i feel very privileged to have experienced the Goldmund Reference and the most expensive Continuum TT.
after those experiences the Verdier Platine still stands fier.
"anyone should throw away the poor original motor/motor control"
well i would not advise to do that.
if you need to throw away the stock motor you have surely experienced problems with either set-up or the linen tread. i cannot judge any situation from here, but after almost 14 years Platine ownership i say the stock motor is very good and causes no single problem anywhere.
"using a 5$ motor"
to my knowledge the stock Philips cost about 100 euro and that is a figure i came by a decade ago.
the motor served me until now and i am very confident it will serve some more decades. (there is also a little modification concerning the 3 rubber grommets which hold the motor, no big thing but important nevertheless)
if anybody experienced problems concerning the stock motordrive it is good to ask themselves if these socalled 'problems' are due to a 'bad' motor or happen to lie elswhere. anybody report on motor failure yet? never heard about that happen.
with the tape drive one (the biggest) problem is indeed removed and that is the linen tread drive which is the cause of all negative experiences ie speed, stability, focus, tight bass and things concerning 'PRAT' in general.
it is not about the tread itself but the problems it creates and causes by it's nature, and opposed to the design of the Platine beeing spring suspended.
there are some claims of audiophiles who owned the Platine for a relatively short time and putting reviews on the www having had bad bass, bad PRAT and found much better TT elsewhere. these reports will feed the 'need' for a whole other design motordrive.
Let me state that the quality and design of those uprade motordrives are beyond question. the people behind those motordrives are great guys with a passion for anything Vinyl and having good expertise.
but ask youself the question: is it just another motordrive or is it the tapedrive which came as the solution to earlier problems?
and how and where did those problems occur in the first place?
'some say the magnets can cause cancer'.
'some say...' ;-)
any Platine owner is invited to read my papers (too little space here) on this matter and the modkit too.
http://www.callas-audio.nl/index.php?page=platinemodkit.htm
i'm open to any discussion / experiences of other owners concerning the beloved Verdier Platine and will eagerly try to help out any Platine owner anytime.
be it stock or modified :-)
keep those black discs spinning.
|
As first upgrade anyone should throw away the poor original motor/motor control. I can't understand why someone is using a 5$ motor in a 12.000$ tt. I've replaced last week by a TW-Acustic Raven AC motor/motor control. The improvement is unbelievable and I'm sure thats still not the limit of this tt. Marco |
Ledoux, I am 'shaken' to read that even Herr Dr. Dertoman
is not well informed. The Callas 'kit' is available on
the German (...Audio-markt.de);audio-markt;Plattenspieler
Zubehor. Price 2.320 Euro.
Regards,
Nandric |
I got the ball as an option with my Verdier, it is an expensive option now. I use the ball with the platter adjusted so it just touches the ball, I use a 4 pound Redpoint weight on the record. This is a noticable improvement. I have converted to battery operation with instructions from JC Verdier, he suggests splicing into the circuit just after the AC to DC converter, I use a 12V DC to DC converter to regulate the voltage from an automotive 12V power supply. These changes are inexpensive compared to the GT options. See pics in my system. |
Ledoux,
I use the thread drive and not the supplied rubber belt. Apparently that's what is recommended by Verdier.
The build quality of Graham Tricker's battery PSU is excellent. He also makes TRON amplifiers (www.tron-electric.co.uk). All his kit is built superbly and all of it by him and no-one else.
If you look at his website here
http://www.gtaudio.com/forsale.html
you'll see his demo PV fo sale with his battery PSU and custom solid alloy motor housing. If you email or call him (+44 1895 833099), he might be prepared to sell you the PSU ± housing separately.
Charlie |
Yes, from the face of it the upgrade kit looks really 'generic' considering the price!
The callas site is also providing a new 'belt'. On this point I would like your opinion. I have now switched to the rubber belt originally provided by Verdier and stopped using the thread. But I have read that using the thread is the way to go!?
Charlie,
How is the built quality of the power supply? Any practical use issues we should know about? I have thought of upgarding the power supply and/or motor for a while. What made you go with the Brit kit as opposed to several of the US motors? Never able to make up my mind. |
Ledoux,
The best upgrade on my Platine Verdier was a battery power supply. I bought one from Graham Tricker (GT Audio) who is the UK Verdier distributor (www.gtaudio.com). Increases dynaimic range with inky black silence on quiet passages.
Charlie |
Dear Ledoux, the kit is NOT available yet. However - the asking price is not really inexpensive..... to say the least. The kit contains of simple mechanical parts which do not involve any significant labor or parts costs at all. The principle is fairly simple. The idea is good (if you really WANT the ball under the platter) and it does give you precise alignment of current production Platine Verdiers (that is - all manufactured and sold after 1992). |
