I used to sell both Vandersteen and Thiel but own Magneplanar 1.6 QR's. They are all very good speakers and I agree with most of the comments noted above. The Vandersteen's are easiest to drive, the Maggies and Thiels are less efficient, with the Thiel being the most difficult load on an amp. All three benefit from proper room placement but the Maggies are most critical being a dipole. I personally prefer the sound of the 2ce over the Thiel 2.3. You'll have to hear a set of 1.6 Q/R properly set up to believe how good they can sound. |
The advise your getting on this thread is very good. The Thiels are way better then the Vandies. There is no comparison. Unfortunately the amp you have will make the Thiels sound like wounded rinos. The Thiels require amps that give predigious amounts of current at 3 ohms. If you look at the specs on your amplifier you will note that the power at 8 ohms is not doubled at 4 ohms. This means its current limited. That current limitation will be heard on the Thiels. Unless you are willing to purchase a Krell or other super amp don't go to Thiels. |
I have listened to Vandersteen 2ce and Theil 2 2. The Vandersteens are definately more laid back sounding, I have always thought that they sound their best with classical as opposed to jazz and rock. The Thiels on the other hand have a lot more get up and go, the music jumps off of them much quicker that the Vandersteens. The Thiels don't have the relaxed sound that the Vandersteens do. I think that it boils down to your personal opinion on listening to music. I you like to kick back and just let the music wash over you with out thinking about it to much then the Vandersteens are probably better. If you like to get analytical and extract every detail that the music has to offer then I think the Thiels are better. Personally I would choose the Thiels, but my friend would go with the Vandersteens. |
Bennett-I don't have much experience with Theil speakers,but currently have a set of Maggie MGlll A's in my main system and Vandersteen 2Ci's in my second system. I think your electronics will be a big factor in your decision. I've used a variety of tubed and solid state electronics with the Vandersteens,and have had fine results with all of them. These speakers ALWAYS manage to honor the music(all types)and might just be the most tonally balanced(top to bottom) of your three choices. I think the styles of music you listen to will also be a critical factor. If you listen to a wide variety of music,again, I can't help but think the Vandersteens would be a great choice. Consider this,too: when you get the itch to upgrade, the Vandersteens can be converted to 2Ce SIGNATURES by replacing the drivers,and I understand you can do this yourself. I love the MG lll's but haven't heard the 1.6's. They are probably more sensitive to the gear in front of them,and optimal placement will be more finicky,if my experience with my own Maggies is any indication. My gut feeling is to go with the Vandersteens-my old 2Ci's never cease to amaze or SATISFY me with all kinds of music. Good luck,good listening! Bob LaBarca |
While everyone is suggestion an in-home demo or bringing your equipment to a dealer, those have never been viable options as far as anyone I know. Lets face it, most dealers do NOT let you bring your stuff in and DO NOT let you try the stuff at home. They are mostly arrogant jerks and if not, probably they are not selling the type of equipment you are looking for. While some audiophiles get all buddy-buddy with their dealers I just can't suck up to them like that, so what I do is give the equipment a quick listen and bring it home. Return it if you don't like it. That said, I have the Vandersteen 2Ce's and they are excellent, musical, speakers. I don't think you could go wrong. I have not heard the other speakers but heard that they were excellent as well. |
Thiel speakers are very good. I have never hear Vandersteens, but I did own a pair of Magnepans for many years. After I heard the Thiel 2 2 I gave away my Maggies. The Maggies had a huge (dare I say unnaturally huge) soundstage - Leonard Cohen sounded like a huge mouth on the front wall. Maggies have "no" low bass. You can maybe live with that, but the most problematic aspect is the back-radiation (they are bipolar). This can muddy up the sound if you do not position them carefully - which could mean well into the room - which may not be possible. Martin-Logans are also dipolar. I refer you to Wes Phillips review in Stereophile a couple of months back where he found that a pair of MLs sounded best with a wall of acoustic absorbers behind them. These results may be extendable to Maggies. If I had to buy without auditioning I'd go with the Thiels - the 2.3s look interesting. |
Hi Bennett, I've been following the responses to your query with interest. I didn't need to be convinced that the Vand. 2Ces are great, but Steve440 made a very articulate and convincing statement-- well said. |
Thiel speakers are very good. I have never hear Vandersteens, but I did own a pair of Magnepans for many years. After I heard the Thiel 2 2 I gave away my Maggies. The Maggies had a huge (dare I say unnaturally huge) soundstage - Leonard Cohen sounded like a huge mouth on the front wall. Maggies have "no" low bass. You can maybe live with that, but the most problematic aspect is the back-radiation (they are bipolar). This can muddy up the sound if you do not position them carefully - which could mean well into the room - which may not be possible. Martin-Logans are also dipolar. I refer you to Wes Phillips review in Stereophile a couple of months back where he found that a pair of MLs sounded best with a wall of acoustic absorbers behind them. These results may be extendable to Maggies. If I had to buy without auditioning I'd go with the Thiels - the 2.3s look interesting. |
If you wish to keep your midrange electronics, I think you should buy the vandersteens. Check out the 2ce signatures. Until recently, I used a high quality denon dra-1025 receiver with my vandersteen 2c's. Surprisingly good. One nice thing I have noticed about the vandersteens is their cosmetic durability. There is no cabinet to scratch nor drivers to puncture. After 10 years, and probably 12 moves, they still look close to new. If you have to mail order, I recommend a dealer we have in Lake Oswego OR called The Audio Gallery. Gary and Cindi Kerr run it. Very nice people who really know their audio. I personally find the sound of theil's very annoying. They are way too bright for my tastes. They are more accurate, but I just don't care for them. I thought the mg 1.6's were excellent speakers, however I have heard they require tremendous power to sound good. If you want great accuracy, but with less bass, they would be the way to go. I would not try to drive them with a receiver. BTW, the 2ce signatures are quite a bargain upgrade. They are only 1620. |
Sounds like you are getting more advice than any one man should to confuse you even more. Save a little more money and buy a used pair of Thiel 3.6 (2300 or less). These will definitely beat all the ones you were considering. So will the Legacy classics, the Martin Logan SL3/REquests ..... sorry. |
Bennett As stated above in some of the other responses there is no substitution to listening in your own room with your current electronics. If that is not possible, try to bring your electronics to the stores where you can then audition in a familiar system. Good luck and enjoy the journey! |
I have lived with the Vandersteen 10 years from 1988-1998 and I loved them until I moved and I could never get them to sound right in my new room. I have heard the Thiels and they are certainly less forgiving than the Vandy's.Great detail 3-D imaging. The Steens reproduce music accurately but really don't provide all the detail that the Thiels reveal. Another excellent speaker in this price range that in my estimation is a MUST audition is the NHT 2.5i. These speakers will reveal what is on the recording and with excellent electronics is a competitor with any of the 3 on your list. I currently own these speakers (2 years now) and I am absolutely thrilled with their sound. They are accurate, they have excellent base response and most importantly for me is that they are balanced across the board as are the Vandy's. I hate to through you this curve but add them to the list otherwise if you want to stick with your 3 choices I would go with the VANDERSTEEN. I ultimately picked the Vandy's over Magnapan 2.6 speakers after long deliberation and was never sorry for the choice. |
Is your room treated correctly with acoustic traps? If you haven't damped first reflection points, you won't be hearing what your speakers sound like, NO MATTER WHAT SPEAKER YOU CHOOSE. As for Thiels/Vandersteens, audition each in your home before you buy. And get a couple of ASC "Frescoes" before you do that... |
Either pair of speakers would be a great choice; however, after owning two generations of models 2's and now the proud owner of the 3A Signatures, I prefer the sound of the Vandersteens over thiels. They are so musical and right, you can listen to them for hours on end without fatigue. The are detailed in a natural way that makes other speakers sound like, well, speakers. Being a former musician, I know what musical instruments sound like, and Vandersteen has got it right. The are not designed to WOW you in a stereo store like most will, they simply do one thing very well; repoduce music faithfully. Live with them, and you'll never live without them. Try them and you'll see why their repeat customer base is the highest in the industry. I'm not a salesman, just an educated long-time audiophile who's listened to hundreds of different pieces of equipment. The 2CE Signatures are fantastic and the 3A Signatures are undervalued by about $5,000.00. Buy Vandersteens and enjoy listening to music! |
Hi Bennett; I've owned 2 pairs of Vand. 2ces, and have Vand. 3Asigs now in my main system. The Vandersteens are all excellent. I've driven the 2Ces with everything from inexpensive receivers, good integrateds, and presently with an excellent quality McCormack DNA.5. Well, the 2Ces sounded very good with all of these different systems. As I upgraded electronics, the speakers sounded better too, ie they are sensitive to what is driving them. So if you go with Vandersteens, you can upgrade your electronics as desired and speaker quality will seem to improve too. Vandersteens are quite forgivig in this regard, and very musical. I recommend them highly. I have never heard Thiels, but have read that they are much more demanding of source, and tend to be somewhat analytical. |
I owned a pair of Thiel CS.5 for a while and also heard the 2.3's (they were not quite broken in yet). I have not heard Vandersteen. I will say that the theil was a nice speaker for the year and a half I had them and hated to see them go because they are a status speaker of sorts. If the Vandy's are where your heart is heading go with'em, If you've owned one pair of speakers for 25 years you don't seem to picky like alot of us. In complete opinion free from the speakers you listed above I think the Biro L/1's by avahifi.com would provide more musical sound and you would save money and space. And with the money you save you might even want to upgrade something else. The L/1 is a very special speaker. |
Bennett, it is a tuff question to answer when asked to compare one speaker w/ another. that's like me trying to guess what kind of shoe you would like best. I have been thru alot of speakers,Thiel CS7 to the Eggleston Andra and now back to a pr. of the Thiel CS6's and 3 Thiel MCs 1's. Some speakers have specific strong points, but I find that Thiel has no weakness in all the area's. They are either doing it all wrong or they are doing it all right. Vandy's are nice but to me you can not beat a Thiel speaker. The other gentleman was right though,you MUST have good equipment w/ Thiels or you will know it,but why throw good money after bad? Why have on a Tux and put on dirty shoes? My feelings? Buy Thiel and if you have to upgrade then go for it as you can afford to,in the long run you will be happy you did. Good Luck! |
Thank you for your very wise advice and guidance. Unfortunately, I live in a remote area that precludes me from in home demos and trials. I've been shopping some stores in my travels, and relying on catalogs, spec sheets and word-of-mouth recommendations. I'm leaning heavily towards Vandersteen..Please stay in touch - Bennett |
Vandy and Thiel are severely different. Thiels are extremely linear and accurate and require lots of very clean power and a very clean source to sound good, or even listenable. Given your current electronics, I would not commit to Thiels without first hearing the combination. There is a substantial possibility that you won't like the combination. Vandersteens are much more forgiving and naturally forgiving, at the expense of being less optimal with the best gear and source material. If you have to buy without trying it out on your home gear, AND if you have no near term plans to upgrade gear, I'd go with the Vandersteens. Maggies have a great reputation and I used to own SMGa's and have a fondness for them but have not heard recent models. They are planars which means that room positioning is critical, and they will tend to beam the high end more than dynamic speakers. I would again hesistate to commit to owning these without trying them out at home. Great potential and very worthwhile testing. Final thought: there is a trap that all of us fall into when testing gear - we evaluate and compare gear very analytically (which has better imaging, etc) but really the pleasure of music is less tangible. Sometimes a piece of gear just moves you emotionally even though objectively it might not be the best. When you test, listen for what you enjoy. Listen with your heart and not your head, as one rare female audiophile once told me. Art |
