I have been following this thread with interest- since a Steelhead was mentioned earlier, and I just switched from that to the Allnic h3000. It is far too early in the process to make any concrete judgments, but the Allnic seems to sound far less compressed than the Steelhead. It does need to break-in though, which is one of the reasons for my hestitation in providing a glowing review. The other variable in my system, my line stage, is temporarily in a holding pattern- a Lamm Reference line stage, which is making all sorts of nasty noise, and obviously needs to be fixed. I substituted a Joule LA 150mkII, which, frankly, is far too lush in combination with the ML2 amps (the Joule might be the ticket for someone with big solid state amps of the analytic variety).
The other interesting thing is that the Steelhead really only sounded great through the MM inputs, rather than the step up transformers- through the transformers, it exhibited some unevenness across the spectrum. The Allnic doesn't seem to behave that way at all.
Oh, and the Allnic is pretty gorgeous, if you are a gearhead. :) |
An Infomercial... Now why didn't I think of that? You see, Podeschi, that's why you were elected the club's Strategic Marketing Director (in a landslide victory I should add).
I also had a ground loop issue that I never fully solved, even after I installed two 20AMP dedicated circuits!
After much posting and consultation with my electrician and the technicians at PurePower in Canada, I just kinda gave up since I was able to tame it down to a dull, background whine that didn't regularly bring me to the point of psychosis anymore.
But in the first minutes of having the CINEMAG in the chain, I tried the Ground Lift toggle, turned up the volume way past what would be ear-melting level if I had something playing and whaddaya know, quiet.
The 1131 fixed it with a simple slip of a fwitch!
I am looking forward to meeting our humble hero Bob at THE SHOW in southern California in a few weeks. Anyone else on this thread going?
Alón |
Right on, Alonski. I would also add to our Cinemag Infomercial I had a funky ground loop hum issue with my Miyajima setup (something about my system). The 1131 fixed that. |
Podeschi,
Nice to have you in the "smitten-by-the-1131" club.
It's always interesting to share our impressions boldly and openly on these threads... but when your A'gon friends start spending money based on our impressions, one can certainly get a little concerned. What if they don't have the same experience? What if they hate it and resent me for being a tin-eared miscreant?
All I can say is, Alright! Glad you were impressed enough to want two of them. Loved the blender metaphor! Hey, now that there are two of us in this club, we can tell anyone that doesn't agree with us that they are obviously half-deaf cretins who don't have the sophistication to hear the magic this SUT brings! This, of course, will get them to buy it out of sheer embarrassment... Then we can hit Bob up for a commission, and also.... OK, wait, I shouldn't be posting this...
Anyone else ready to join the club? |
I now have Bob's Devices Cinemag 1131 mono (made for Miyajima mono)
in my system. So Miyajima is going into Herron's MM inputs. Magic. Meaty,
special, musical, engaging, powerful etc. It is like putting Shindo and Linn
and ARC into a blender. Much superior than without 1131. Now i want one
for my benz lp-s. it brings weight and drama that is captivating. |
In case anyone is still interested in the SUT audition... I've got over 25 hours on this puppy and it's rocking my world. Right now I'm listening to Shelby Lynne's tribute to Dusty Springfield and I'm lovin life. I've been thinking about how lucky we all are to be engaged in a hobby that offers endless potential to completely surprise us whether we're hearing sonic details we never knew were in the familiar grooves of our favorite performances, or hearing unfamiliar performances recomended by fellow audiophiles that render us speechless...
I had a musician friend over last night for some listening and I pulled out the big guns yes, the "Reference" LPs. While listening, he kept shaking his head in disbelief. I know that feeling, the sweet spot is deadly.
As for the upgrade, I consider this surprising outcome a complete success! At least for a while, I'm out of hardware search mode and I'm going deep into the music hunting mode.
And lastly, an admission, as required by my Audioholics Anonymous program. Here goes: just now, I've listened to side two of Shelby Lynne's album four times in a row already. I just can't help it... It just sounds so goooood. I'm not sure I can stop. My sponsor is gonna have a fit.
Wow, feels good to get that off my chest. Thanks for reading. If you have any questions, please post.
Cheers,
Alón |
you either have the magic or you don't. when i bought the Herron VTPH-2 phono preamp I knew my search was over. Don't settle for "ok" |
Alón,
Thanks for posting 1131 impressions - I surely understand your excitement (nothing better than improving a system you already love), and now you've really got me thinking about one! Geez, I guess I should also consider picking up a "beater" MC cart just for burning new phono electronics & tubes in ;)
Mike |
Gang: I have had the Steelhead for 5-6 years, bought it new, never liked it straight in, and with the Lamm Reference line stage, it made pretty good music, using NOS Teles and rolling the 7044 tubes as well. There is a noise in my Lamm Reference, and it has to go back to Vlad (no big deal, i am still in NYC area, so it is a drive, no shipping). But since Vlad is away (Munich, i gather, not the Motherland), I'm down to the Steelhead for a month or so, straight in again, and it sounds too 'high fi' for me. So, I'm looking for something that will give me purity and openness via the Lamm ML2/Avantgarde Duo combo.
Considering, among others, the Allnic stuff, as well as Veloce line stage with ? phono.
I'm vinyl only. And i don't need a bunch of other inputs on the linestage.
Spoke to Israel at Coincident as well-
Frankly, I trust my own ears, in my own system, not the flavor of the month or technical explanations (which are fine as far as they go). My take, living with the Steelhead, it is good, and very flexible, well built, but sounds too electronic (FET's?) for my taste, and without the linestage to buffer it, literally and figuratively, it will be offered for sale soon.
What say you?
TIA. |
Alonski, I love your description - spot on, "I love that this increased heft can be had without the usual compromises of darkened tonal colors and loss of inner detail. Weight, detail and sparkle coexisting in one system..." |
Al, thanks for the kind words. Yes, my VAC has both MM and LOMC built in. I'm using the low 1:20 ratio setting, which is what Bob recommended for my cartridge. That, I believe, translates to a load impedance of 118. I also use the Ground Lift switch, that in my system makes music emerge from a background so quiet and black that the first notes out of the speakers startles the cat! Bob actually researched my cartridge, and only then made his recommendations... considering the results, it sounds like he nailed it!
As for burn-in, I've experienced improvement over time in every component in my system. I dont think this any different. The delicate silver wires Bob uses in the 1131 took under three hours to show their magic. I think the SUT will get even better in the next 100 hours. I don't have a "cable cooker," so I'll just have to play a lot more vinyl... I know, poor me! |
Jfrech, I would love to do a blind A/B with the EAR and Bob's. At twice the price, I'm really curious about the MC-4.
Again, thank you so much for your original suggestion to try a SUT. I owe you one!
Alón |
Hey Podeschi, this little jewel box is blowing my socks off. I'm really looking forward to hearing your impressions of Bob's SUT in your system. Indeed, your description of more "meaty and weighty" music with your current SUT is valid in my experience as well. I love that this increased heft can be had without the usual compromises of darkened tonal colors and loss of inner detail. Weight, detail and sparkle coexisting in one system... ahhh, life is good! SUTs rock. |
Outstanding, Alon! And I must add that it's always a pleasure to read your witty posts. I take it that your preamp has both MM and LOMC phono stages. The manual seems to imply that the version of the preamp it is based on can optionally have one or the other, but not both, although it mentions the existence of an early version and a later version of the preamp. Also, I'm wondering what gain setting you are using on the transformer. As you no doubt realize, the gain of the transformer will be a key determinant of the loading seen by the cartridge. You might find this thread to be of interest. As you may realize, the load impedance that is optimal for a given cartridge can be expected to differ when a SUT is used, compared to when the cartridge is driving an active gain stage. As to why the apparent breakin phenomenon occurred, I haven't the slightest idea. My initial instinct would normally be to suspect that something unrelated was adversely affecting the sound during the first couple of hours, such as the warmup state of the equipment, or out of the ordinary AC line voltage or noise conditions. But the methodology you described would seem to have eliminated those kinds of possibilities. Best regards, -- Al |
Alonski, that was my experience with my EAR MC-4 SUT. My dealer says they don't like to be moved and just need bit to settle down with signal flowing through it. I suspect it's those little wires ...
I've heard a lot about Bob's devices, I might try one soon also to compare.
PS, I bought my SUT on trail also ... :) |
Excellent. I just ordered the Cinemag 1131 SUT made for my Miyajima Premium Mono BE cartridge. I have Robin Wyatt's SUT which is amazing - cant wait to hear Bob's magic in my chain. I plan on buying one of his cables too. What I am finding with an SUT in the chain is a new increased body and weighty meat to the sound. Very addictive. Taking it out makes the music more lean and less involving. |
Gentlemen,
I promised to follow up on my progress, so here's an update on the new twist in the road, SUTs. Thanks again to Jfrech for suggesting this alternative to an outboard Phono Stage.
Here's a letter I sent to Bob, of Bob's Devices, that will tell the story. Let me know if you have any questions on this development:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for the quick shipment of the 1131 Blue and the IC Cable (both of which are impressive in build-quality). As you know, my intention is to upgrade the MC phono stage in my beloved VAC Standard LE tube preamp.
I trust I didn't offend you with my skepticism as to whether this will be worth the money, since I believe my analogue set-up is pretty great sounding already. I asked how long the new SUT would take to burn in so I could make a good comparison, your instructions were clear: "If you don't hear a difference right away, just send it back to me and I'll refund your money." Fair enough.
So here's what I did the same day I received your SUT:
I prepared my system, warming up the amps for two hours, picking out tracks and sides of albums from my reference collection that I know very, very well, then playing some cuts to make sure the system was ready. As always, before any A/B comparisons, to fix in my aural memory the sound I'm starting with, I listened closely to the familiar tone, depth and speed of my system, which is my audio benchmark. And lastly, made sure I could move the new component in and out of the chain quickly and easily.
I did hear a difference right away, but I was not terribly impressed. The gain of your SUT was much higher than my preamp's built in MC stage, so I spent time equalizing the SPL for a more valid comparison, and listened again. Yes, the unit was much quieter than my VAC's built-in MC stage, which is somewhat important to me, but not worth the cost alone. Here's what I found in three hours of A/B testing:
1. The bass was definitely more pronounced, but loose and unfocused compared to my reference. On Ray Brown's solo on LA4's "Just Friends," I couldn't locate his instrument clearly in the soundstage... he was everywhere.
2. On Ennio Morricone's The Mission soundtrack, the upper mid-range sounded distorted, with some glare in the soprano choral voices. I paused here to clean the album and cartridge again because it sounded like a dirty stylus that caused some mis-tracking. I played it again... still there... took the SUT out of the chain and thankfully, I was relieved to be back to the familiar lush sound of my VAC (this amazing album is long out of print and I was concerned it was getting worn out).
3. After over two hours of A/B-ing, the little SUT did improve, but not enough to come close to my VAC. I was ready to pack it up and send it back to you, but it was getting late, so I figured I would do it in the morning and write you this letter of explanation. Before calling it quits, I decided to put on one of my favorite album sides, Dexter Gordon's Tanya from the LP "One Flight Up" on a wonderful Blue Note test pressing. OK, so something definitely happened about halfway through this remarkable 20 minute jam... It was startling. I got up to check, and yes, the SUT was in the chain and nothing had moved. I could barely believe my ears, and had to A/B this track three times to grasp the transformation.
Somehow, quite suddenly and without any really encouraging improvement that lead up to this, your SUT came to life! Everything was now better than my reference! The soundstage blew open and focused the instruments in space with so much air around them it felt like if I got too close to the tenor sax I might get sprayed with some spittle! Bass reproduction also took a quantum leap, getting richer, tighter and more musical. The mid-range glare not only disappeared, but left in its place an easy, natural sparkle that made my system without the SUT seem veiled and dull in comparison (this was hard to come to terms with since I love my VAC). I spent the next half hour doing more A/B and trying not to wake up my wife and dragging her into the listening room just so I could have someone, anyone to share this incredible experience with (would have been a serious infraction of the WAF code)!
Bob, when you said the 1131 Blue won't change much over time, you should know that least in my system, the SUT most definitely broke in very, very significantly over the course of 2-3 hours of continual use. And It's hard to imagine that it won't get even better as it ages in my analogue chain.
This test was a very moving experience of "You don't know what you don't know until you know it" when the joy of an audio upgrade reveals itself to us in one impossible musical epiphany that is so exciting, well, at least to us hopeless audiophiles (I'm certain had I interrupted my wife's beauty sleep, I would be getting that look right about now), that we want to shout "Yes! Yes! Yes!" in celebration of our obsession with sound and gear.
Anyway, it's now the morning after and I'm experimenting with albums that haven't gotten much airplay on my revealing rig, which trashes what I deemed "bad" recordings... one such album is Ekseption, the remarkable Dutch classical-jazz fusion LP from the 1970s. It has always been shrill and strident on all my previous systems. I'm listening to it as I write and I can't believe what I'm hearing. I won't bore you with audiophile expletives, just know that your humble device has put a wide smile on my face.
Thank you for helping me reclaim 100s of LPs from the "unlistenable on my system" file.
Alón |
Jfrech, I've got you to thank for opening this can of new possibilities... I just read the Art Dudley piece on the EAR MC4 and now I've got to hear it in my system. If it matches my cart and system well and can beat the VAC built in MC, I'd say it would be a simple and relatively inexpensive upgrade.
Podeschi, I've been keeping an eye out for a VAC Ren or Sig, but they rarely show up here. My first choice is to stay with VAC if I can. |
Hi. You dont replace your mc stage with a SUT you run the SUT into the MM input. Best strategy is to get a SUT that is known to work well with your exact cartridge parameters. Vac can change a mc input to a mm. |
Might also check out the E.A.R. MC4, this is the one I am demo'ing right now and will likely purchase...I'm sincerely impressed.
Here is another opinion: http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=197:ear-mc-4-step-up-transformer&catid=37:full-length-reviews&Itemid=2
I wish I could help you better how it works with your VAC...works great with my Nagra ;-) |
OK, I'm intrigued. I took Jfrech's advice and did some research on SUTs. I read about the EAR, Audionote, Ortofon, Bob's Devices, and K&K. This is a whole new animal.
There's some intimation that SUTs work best with tube MM phono stages, which leads me to the question:
Do any VAC preamp owners on this thread have experience replacing the built-in MC phono stage with an SUT?
Great, I just added another month to my research timeline... glad I love this stuff. |
Upgrade to better vac preamp with phono built in is the route i would go too |
Bill,
No worries, your post was very helpful to me, even if I extrapolated your explanation a bit beyond your intention. Of course, a 5-figure phono stage could very well be better, but it would still need a line stage, volume control etc. for it to work. So going direct is not really so direct. Either way, whether I consider a pure phono stage or one that has volume control, it's going to be the quality of the design and circuitry and its interaction with my system that will make the difference. That's what clicked when I read your post, so thank you for that.
Al,
Thank you as well for reinforcing that I'm at least asking the right questions in my exploration. I have thought much on the 2 Box vs. 1 Box issue (especially since room on my rack is limited), and if I could do it without the need for a very high WAF, I'd probably just upgrade my VAC Standard LE preamp to the Signature Mk IIa, which I'm sure sports a much better phono stage! But, as crazy as we are in this hobby, I love my wife more than I love new gear.
Cheers,
Alon |
Alon,
Thanks for the compliment. I was mainly just talking about the differences between running the Steelhead as a preamp vs. through my preamp. The latter sounds better, and my post tried to speculate as to why. I didn't mean to generalize beyond the two components. It may well be that some other phono stage (e.g. an IO Signature, as Jwm recommends) with a volume control would be much better than the Steelhead direct, or the Steelhead through VAC preamp, for that matter. No reason why it couldn't be, as Al says.
Bill |
03-25-12: Alonski
It seems clear and obvious (well, now) that "direct" is not possible because with any outboard or built in phono stage, one would need a volume control and additional circuitry to control the downstream amp, in essence, you need a line stage for this to work whether it's part of the Steelhead or VAC is irrelevant. FWIW, and I have no familiarity with the Steelhead, my take on this is that it is not irrelevant. The functionality of a line stage is needed, somewhere, but if that functionality is implemented to a high standard within the same component that provides the phono stage functionality, investment of a given number of $ can potentially provide better results, since those $ are only paying for one component instead of two (plus an extra pair of interconnect cables). Also, while a pure phono stage (lacking line stage functionality) will not incorporate a volume control mechanism, it still has to include circuitry to drive the line stage and the interconnect cable between the two components. The requirements for that circuitry will not differ greatly, if at all, from the circuitry that would be required to drive the power amp, and the corresponding interconnect cable. So the two-box approach means having an additional buffer/driver stage in the signal path, compared to the one-box approach. Obviously, those potential advantages of the one-box approach may or may not be realized depending on the specific components that are involved, system synergy, listener preferences, etc. In your particular case, my feeling is that what you previously proposed is likely to be well worth exploring: Replacing an amazing preamp that has a really good built-in phono stage, with an OUTSTANDING phono stage that allows me to go direct to my VAC amp for best LP sound (which is what I care about most) and would accommodate my CD player with what would probably be a very decent line stage input. So in essence, it's a preamp with its main focus on vinyl.
One more benefit to this is that I could sell my VAC pre to offset some of the cost of the new phono stage. Best regards, -- Al |
I vote that we honor Bill (Wrm57) with an Audiophile Eloquence Award for perfectly and concisely describing what we all love about our VAC gear. It just doesn't get better than "illuminating music from within." I'm going to send that over to Kevin and suggest he uses it as a tagline!
So, Bill... thanks for the explanation about what "direct to amps" really means. It seems clear and obvious (well, now) that "direct" is not possible because with any outboard or built in phono stage, one would need a volume control and additional circuitry to control the downstream amp, in essence, you need a line stage for this to work whether it's part of the Steelhead or VAC is irrelevant. Did I understand you correctly (please correct me if I haven't)?
So, I'll risk continuing (if I misunderstood, my foot's already in my mouth, a little deeper won't be too bad): Since this would be exactly like getting ANY outboard phono stage and utilizing my current line stage, I can go back to my original focus on simple phono stages like the Zesto, Herron and Chinook, hook the winner up to my beloved VAC's line stage, and I'm good to go! |
Totally agree with wrm57's comments about vac linestage causing music to be lit within and increasing soundstage in all directions..more body and dimensionality. Perfect description. Plus it delivers alot of resolution but detail from the inside-out (lit within) so it isnt analytical resolution but harmonic detail. |
Well, to use the Steelhead as a linestage through its variable outputs sends the signal through additional internal circuitry, volume control, a series of other switches, and different outputs. So it's not as direct as you might think. And it does not add gain, according to the manual, so that's quite different than running the phono stage through fixed outputs into a preamp that provides pure class A gain executed to an extremely high standard. The VAC does not add coloration, at least I don't hear any in mine; it's very neutral. But it does provide far more body and dimensionality, power and extension to the sound, filling out soundstage in all directions. The sound blooms. My first impression upon hearing the VAC was that a light had been turned on inside the music, illuminating it from within like a magic lantern, casting the illusion of live music into the room. That was going from the Steelhead as a line stage--which was quite good itself. The VAC is just better than the Steelhead as a linestage in all the ways you look for, so much better that an additional set of good ICs doesn't reduce the performance gap. |
Alonski,
Eager to hear how things progress with your journey...fun to read about your impressions and comparisons! |
Bill,
I believe you and others who have experienced the same, even Jeff I think it was, who reviewed the Steelhead for 6 Moons and said the same: going direct did not sound as good! I don't understand how can the VAC pre being in the signal path sound better than not having it there and going direct? Is the VAC adding a pleasant coloration to the overall sound, or is it just Kevin's quiet magic? Your thoughts?
JFrech,
I know some very high end phono stages are quietly using SUTs (why they went out of favor in the industry I don't know). I looked at the very reasonable K&K, all the way to the Audio Note S8, a tiny box of silver wire for $10,000. But I still have not heard any of them in a system.
Podeschi, JWM, Almarg,
Nagra, EAR, Aesthetix, Coincident... added to the research list. Thanks. The way this process seems to be doing the opposite of shortening my list, I'll probably by able to make my decision at THE Show in Newport Beach in June. Maybe Kevin will surprise us there with a debut phono stage he's been secretly building! (I can dream, can't I?)
Coincidentally, today I received two new phono tubes tested by Brent. I'll report back soon.
Thank you all for your input. I've got a lot to work with, but I'm certainly open to more. |
Alonski,
One final idea based on what you are trying to accomplish. I recently heard the EAR 912. My dealer uses it as his reference phono/linestage preamp in his megabuck system (Magico speakers, $150k Clearaudio table, top of line synergistic research cabling, etc.). It was stunning. Clear as a crystal brook and very very dynamic. Probably the most dynamic punchy sound I've heard through a preamp. I'm sure the Magico speakers, the reference table etc had something to do with it, but the 912 sounded amazing. If I hadn't just purchased TWO reference preamps (need to unload one of them), I would have bought the 912 having heard it. I was afraid to buy it before because I read some reviews that said the top end was rolled off. Couldn't be further from the truth. |
Alonski,
Jeff Dorgay at TONEAudio I think wrote some reviews on the NAGRA preamp which has a phono pre built in if I'm not mistaken. That's one I would look at if you are seeking a stand alone unit. You may want to play around with the tubes in the VAC phono section too,....I'm curious if that raises the level of the VAC phono section part of preamp. |
I agree the VAC adds something special, raising the sound to the level as if everything was in a $100,000 reference system. The best description I can add to the sound that VAC preamps give is the phrase used before "lit within"....there is a sense of something being alive and vibrant....nothing "flat" about the sound. Not sure if it is the silver wiring, the tubes, or what, but the VAC preamp (I have the lower priced one...the Ren Mk III) is special as a linestage. If they built a phono stage at a reasonable cost that had that same magic....wow, get in line. |
Alon, re the question you posed just above, I think that the Coincident Statement Phono Preamp, with the apparently optional line-level input, is one to consider. I have no experience with it, but I have seen its sonics praised highly by other members. It meets all of the requirements you specified in your post with the exception that it does not have a fixed output. Obviously, though, you could determine a setting of its volume controls that would be optimal for use with your headphone amp, perhaps even the max setting that would essentially remove its volume controls from the signal path. It does provide two sets of output jacks, btw. There is no remote, though, and the separate dual mono volume controls may or may not be to your liking. Its 66 db overall gain seems to me to be a good match for your 0.4 mv cartridge and the relatively high 36 db gain of your amplifier. Good luck on your quest! -- Al |
The Aesthetix IO phono stage can have volume controls and inputs added. This will kill the Manley. |
Hi, so have you ever though about keeping your VAC pre/phono and trying a high quality step up transformer? depending on the cartridge you are using which is the best match.
I am running a E.A.R. MC4 into my Nagra VPS, it's pretty impressive. My issue started when I bought a 2nd cartridge with .18mv output vs my regular cartridge with .5mv output..
This might be a different, but rewarding path... |
Alsonski, I found the Steelhead RC to sound better through my VAC preamp than directly into the amps. It's good but the VAC adds something special. |
Allot of different opinions as the norm, I see mention of different models etc.
Doshi pre-amp, it's a fine pre but in my opinion the line stage is not in the same league as the Sig. MK2a, phono really did not do allot of comparisons so I can't comment.
I was really disapointed at the price point of the Doshi and when I got mine, garage type fit and finish left me scratching my head.
As the norm there are going to be preferences and what one likes and or prefers, the rest of the set-up is very important also.
Vac will be coming out with a Reference phono, only time will tell. There are lots of great phono's out there to try but again it's all relative and subjective. |
ERRATA:
I was mistaken, the Steelhead remote only adjusts volume, not cartridge loading. Damn. Instantly A/B-ing different setting options from my sweet spot with my eyes closed would have been so useful. |
Podeschi, et al,
I had a thought... and naturally, it throws another wrench into the works. Here goes:
What if I find a phono pre that is significantly better than the one built-in to my wonderful VAC pre (which seems possible from all the great feedback on this thread)... And what if that phono pre has a excellent volume control AND a line level input for my CD player, AND a Variable output from the phono stage DIRECTLY to my VAC Phi 200 amp that drives my main speakers, AND a Fixed output to feed my Ray Samuels Raptor headphone amp... Theoretically, I could (gasp!) replace my VAC pre completely!
I know, it's heresy, but it may make sense: Replacing an amazing preamp that has a really good built-in phono stage, with an OUTSTANDING phono stage that allows me to go direct to my VAC amp for best LP sound (which is what I care about most) and would accommodate my CD player with what would probably be a very decent line stage input. So in essence, it's a preamp with its main focus on vinyl.
One more benefit to this is that I could sell my VAC pre to offset some of the cost of the new phono stage.
So far, the only phono pre I've come across that meets these requirements is the Manley Steelhead at $8000. Do any of you know of other phono stages that have these features? If I go in this direction, it'll sure narrow down the list of candidates...
And, when Kevin does build an outboard phono stage, I'd probably get it.
Thoughts?
|
Alonski- One of the advantages (or not) of the ZYX units is that there are no buttons or dials or loading choices. I think it was A. Salvatore who first brought it to the attention of U.S. 'philes and called it a very zen kind of product. No flash, a small plain, exquisitely finished wooden box w 2 dip switches in back- one for mm/mc and one for charge or operate. Oh, yeah, that is an advantage it runs off batteries which I think is probably a real advantage when dealing w these very small signals. Likely outside of your price range, but I replaced my VAC w a Doshi Alaap. Nick does make separate phono stages but they are rarely seen for sale here. Lots of choices on loading and multiple phono inputs and he will gladly customize one for your choice of carts. I recently had my full-featured Alaap pre upgraded to nearly full monty status and I have been very very impressed. Not nearly the ergonomics, flexibility or fit;n;finish of the VAC Ren units, but the upgraded sound really is quite remarkable. |
Alonski, eager to hear your impressions as you audition different units. I also heard EAR units at my dealer and those were very musical. |
Podeschi,
I agree about the VAC line stage being amazing. I found your impressions of the phono stage helpful, especially the price point references, which align with the units I've chosen to compare to VAC's built in stage. I think I'm on the right track. Now it's just a matter of auditioning the units at home.
Maineiac,
Your recommendations are always good. I'll look into the K&K Maxed Out as well... |
Mulveling and Swampwalker,
Thank you both for sharing your experiences and impressions.
So many cartridge loading possibilities and tweaks... and, of course, all the sincere recommendations we get from fellow audiophiles are great but will ultimately be subject to the reality of hearing the difference in our own systems. Which once again, makes the Steelhead appealing because of the handy remote control which offers us immediate A/B comparisons from our sweet spot!
Alas, as we go up the ladder of phono stages (a ladder that seems covered in oil at times), some really cool features do emerge, making a remote control even more appealing. Like the new ARC that has a number of RIAA curves to choose from when listening to DG, Columbia and Decca classical recordings of yesteryear, before universal adherence to the RIAA standard was fully adopted. It seems like all the early DG albums I have that never sounded quite right just need the correct RIAA curve applied to them and they spring to life!
Has anyone on this thread experienced that? |
I've not compared tons of phono stages but I will say that when I owned a Ren Mk2, the internal MC phono easily beat the Rhea and Rhea Sig and was very similar to the Steelhead. However, you may want to consider an active gain stage phono or head amp, instead of an SUT. IME, SUTs are VERY sensitive to loading and cables. I found that the ZYX Artisan phono stage was VERY close to a Doshi Alaap phono stage and that the ZYX head amp also did a fantastic job, both w ZYX carts. FWIW, I've always thought that loading was more an issue w MC carts, and that for MMs, 47K was a de-facto standard. I could be wrong; its happened once or twice ;-) |
Bill,
I've read a lot on the Miyajima and have been looking forward to hearing it somewhere... I'm a big fan of tiny well-shaped styli that track the grooves at a much deeper level than most and extract information from LPs very familiar to us that we never knew was there! My Carneigie One does that, as does the Cadenza Bronze, but the reports about the Kansui are so positive and compelling... This hobby of ours seems insane to others, and it's conversations like these that makes me think they may be right! What can I say? Does a 5% improvement in sound merit spending thousands of bucks? It does if it makes me happy... and it does. |
Another vote for K&K maxxed out. |
Mulveling and Alonski,
Have you guys checked out the Miyajima Kansui? Like the Bronze and Kontra C, it uses an aluminum cantilever with an advanced stylus shape, in this case Shibata. The Kansui has great slam and a liquid, dimensional midrange you can walk through.HF extension and is very good if not state of the art. It's extremely natural sounding and reminds me of a more refined version of the SPU Royal GMII, which also uses the Replicant 100 (very similar to the FG 80 of the C) on aluminum. Something about that combo is very satisfying. I actually prefer the Kansui to the A90, which is itself terrific but has a very different presentation. Might be up your allies.... |
Alonski,
I had the Ortofon Kontrapunkt c which was the predecessor to your Bronze. Agree with your assessments of its qualities. Such a beautifully clean midrange, with non-abrasive top end and lots of slam on the bottom! Lovely balance. Took me a while to find an appropriate upgrade from that cart - I ended up at the Koetsu Plantinums. I easily preferred the Kontra c to the Benz Ref 3, Benz Wood M2, and Ortofon Jubilee. The Jubilee was brighter and lacked that lovely slam you mention - plus, I didn't find it to be any more resolving (unless you're one of those that equates brightness with detail). That lineup of Benzes (1 series old) has a nice musical balance, but loses out badly versus the Ortofons on technical merits (noise floor, graininess, resolution). The treble & upper mids seemed splashy/grainy versus the Ortofons.
It's harder to pick sides versus the MC Windfeld; the latter is easily more resolving, has tighter/faster bass, and a better noise floor. Still, the Windfeld just had too much energy up top for me, and was harder sounding and less musical than the Kontra c (and presumably the Bronze). You could say "analytical". I ended up unsatisfied, and that's when a went to Koetsu - which I feel offers the best of both worlds. Still, I'm sorry that I ever sold my Kontra c - awesome cart, and I'm sure the Bronze is even better. Might be tempted to try one someday!
Also, I liked the Kontras loaded at around 50 ohms (this was in the days before my VAC Ren III; had the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1). 100 ohms will certainly sound great, but 50 worked better for me. |
I have the VAC phono stage in my VAC Ren III as mentioned -- super handing with variable loading, one MC and one MM input. It is well worth the price of admission for convenience (even as a back up to a stand alone pre). It has a meaty, substantial sound to it. Not as fast and transparent as $4-6+k stages like the Herron, but easily beats 1-3k stages. I will say the performance of the VAC linestage is incredible, but the phono section is not as incredible. No matter how you go (phono or no phono), I highly recommend the VAC preamp. In my system it EASILY competes with preamps that cost twice as much. It is holographic, open, detailed, extended, natural, harmonically accurate....a guitar sounds like a guitar....a voice sounds like a voice. Very round and dimensional presentation -- not flat at all. |
