John, one more thing I wanted to mention to you is that i think that any mid-range sweetness you may have lost when you gave up your 35/35 will likely come back if and when you upgrade to the SE version. Just such a gain in mid-range sweetness is what I got when I moved from my old VAC separates to the 160iSE. |
You may be right, but I have my reservations. I believe the difference is inherent in the difference between the EL34 tube and the KT88 tube. The KT88 is known to be more powerful, dynamic, etc. While the EL34 tube is known as the closest push-pull tube to a SET 300B tube amp when it comes to midrange purity. I also had a quad of Mullard XF-2 EL34 tubes in that amp.
Don't get me wrong, the 160i is no slouch in the midrange, and will better many other amps in this area. I doubt it can best the better EL34 or 300B tube amps in this area though. One just can't have it all.
BTW, I've also lusted after that VAC 30/30 300B amp, but I don't have the speaker/room to do it justice. ;^) |
Agriculturist,
Those are Herbies SuperSonic Stabilizers that were used on top of my CD Player but moved them to the Vac after reading a review on the Vac PHI 200. I have not heard any improvements probably because they're too light and thought they would look good there. |
OK, John, perhaps you won't get all the way to the sweetness of the midrange you lost, but I am sure you will get at least some of the way there. Hope to hear the 30/30 somewhere.
And thanks Wig. Unless I am imagining things I am getting an advantage from my LPI sitting on the VAC. BTW I use Herbie's tube dampers on all tubes and like what they do. |
Agriculturist,
Congratulations on your purchase of the VAC 160i SE.
Looks sweet! And I'm sure it sounds great.
I find this thread very interesting.
Can anyone here tell me what the difference in sound would be comparing the 160i to the 160i SE?
Unfortunately, I have heard neither.
Best regards, |
Hi Lak. Unfortunately at least as far i know no one on this thread has heard both the 160iSE and the 160i. I used to have the VAC 300.1a amp and Renaissance Mark 3 preamp, which I think is probably sonically comparable to the 160i, although with more power 150 wpc versus 85 wpc for the 160iSE and 160i which of course are VAC 's integrated models. I found when moving to the new 160iSE from the separates a substantial increase in refinement across the whole spectrum. All VAC amps have a very high and deserved reputation for their mid range and while I was very enamored of my separates, I feel that the new 160iSE integrated betters the separates even in the midrange. The difference in build between the 160iSE and the 160i is better parts - transformers, etc. - similar to those in VAC 's very high end Statement products.
Interested to hear your view point and about your interests. |
I'm not really looking for sweetness in the midrange anyway Agriculturist. I had plenty of that with my Cary SLP-98P F1 and VAC PA 35/35 amp.
I'm looking more for a natural midrange, not really a sweet one. The 160i does do a very nice job in that regard. Perhaps the SE version does a better job, and one day I may look into that possibility, but not now. Besides, I'd hate to think about being without my amp for a few weeks of shipping/mods, etc.
I think there is about a $6K difference in price between regular and SE version? As far as I know, $2K of that is the upgraded MC phono stage and balanced inputs options that are availible for the 160i, but come standard on the 160i SE. Then the other $4K is in parts upgrade, of course adjusting all numbers for dealer markups.
I have not had the opportunity to hear a 160i SE in comparison with my 160i.
Cheers,
John |
Agriculturist,
I almost purchased a 160i in 2011 however at the time I could not afford it. I've always admired the VAC product line. From what I've read about the 160i SE, it just souinds amazing!
I ended up with an Allnic 1500 integrated 300B. |
I have read good things about that. I am sure you have a very good amp for your purposes Lak. 300Bs are said to be very special tubes and I am sure the Allnic design is great. |
Has anyone tried running 6550's in their 160i in place of the KT88's? A friend of mine sent me a new quad of ARC 6550 tubes. I e-mailed Kevin a couple weeks ago, but got no response. He was probably tied up with CES. I don't want to just plug them in and gamble. :^)
Also, anyone using upgraded fuses? I'm tempted to try one of Audio Horizons Platinum Reference fuses.
Cheers,
John |
I don't believe 6550 can be used in the Vac and the AH fuses are the real deal, I have them in all of my components and yes, they're better the SR. |
Thanks Wig. I didn't think the 6550's could be used in the VAC, which is why I haven't tried them yet. I don't think the VAC can use anything but KT88's. No 6550's, KT90's, KT120's, etc.
As for the fuses, thanks again. Do you happen to know the size/value of the VAC fuse? |
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Thanks, 5x20mm or 6x30mm? |
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I am using the new SR Red fuse. Very happy with that. |
Experiment with fuse direction, it makes a difference |
Thanks Wig for the idea. I'll try it. |
I just ordered a AH fuse for the VAC. I can't believe that I'm going to have to experiment with fuse direction though......man, does the madness never end??? |
Jmcgrogan2,
You and I know that the madness NEVER ends ;-)! |
Give the AH fuse a week to settle in, definitely more palpable and organic sounding than the SR.
Know of anyone looking for a Vac 160i? |
01-28-15: Wig
Give the AH fuse a week to settle in, definitely more palpable and organic sounding than the SR. How will I know if I'm burning it in the right direction? Know of anyone looking for a Vac 160i?
Sorry, no I do not. |
Experiment with direction the second day, I like Cannon D or something with good high end extension and you'll hear the right direction has more clarity/focused soundstage. |
Experiment with fuse direction, it makes a difference Just ask Kevin Hayes for the correct direction. In my VAC SigMKIIa pre, incorrect direction is easily audible. Sounds like out of phase. Big fat image with no impact and weight. Compared notes with several VAC owners and all hear the same. |
I liked the red fuse synergistic for my CD player made the sound more palpable
I noticed less change on my amp.
What was the change like on the VAC 160i?
Thanks
Michael |
I must admit that I haven't been able to try reversing direction as the fuse is very tightly stuck in its socket. Not the spare outer fuse which comes out fine, but the active fuse which is on the inside and very tight. Do you have to use a fair amount of pressure for that one, more so than the spare, to bring it out? |
You can slide the fuse tray out with a golf tee or a small screw driver and pop the fuse out of the clip which takes me about 5 seconds. |
I've used as much force as I dare in trying to remove the fuse from its clip. Seems that the silver cap on the lower end of the inside fuse can't make it through the clip - it just jams. I did put it in there originally so you would think it would come out too. Will check with VAC and SR if there is anything I should try. Don't want to break the clip and have to send the amp back to replace it. |
I pull from the bottom of the fuse and it slips right out of the clip. |
Still jammed. Must be doing something wrong. Can't be that the caps on both ends of the fuse are too thick to go through the clip. Will check further with VAC and SR. Thanks for the help though. |
By the way, I have to tell you that the Stillpoints LPI is the real deal for taming resonance in the VAC chassis. The place to put it is in the space between V8 (leftmost KT88), V2 (right phono 12ax7) and V6 (leftmost driver 12au7). I think you will be blown away by the difference. Even better than where I had it first which was up front left in front of the two phono 12ax7s. |
Did not compare it to anything but the stock fuse. Certainly improved but at the time I had made so many changes it is hard for me to pinpoint the exact difference. I don't recall it was like the difference when I swap tubes. But I do want to try this directional thing with the fuses. |
Just make sure the fuse is centered in the tray and it should slide right in. |
Thanks Wig. I got it to work after a quick chat with Brent. Didn't realize the active fuse moved out sideways, that is to say left-right and not up-down. The spare fuse comes out up-down but not the active one. From my crouching position behind the amp I could not see the fuse holder properly otherwise I might have figured this out. But in the end I couldn't tell much difference from switching direction. Perhaps the SR fuses are not directional unlike the AH fuses. Anyway I will try it again after some time as I am still getting used to the change in sound from the latest changes, including the use of the LPI on the VAC chassis which as I said above was quite meaningful. |
FWIW, in a VAC SigMKIIa pre and 300.1a amp, the correct direction is looking at the back of the unit (fuse holder) the arrow should point left-to right. I assume it's the same for 160i I'm using SR RED fuses. |
I think I got it. For the 160i I believe the SR Red arrow should point downwards. That does sound better than the other way around. Actually that is the way I had it originally too by accident. Thanks for the help Wig and Knghifi. |
That's great and enjoy :) |
I have heard a friend's 160i prior to upgrade as well as after a full upgrade to the 160SE. What I heard was basically more of everything, with better detail and depth of soundstage. It is a noticeable step up from the 160i, for the better, and worth the money, IMO, especially if you spin vinyl. My friend is quite pleased. At some point down the line I may consider one for my office system. |
FPlanner2000, I checked out your very impressive main system at your Audiogon link. We heard much the same IQ setup with Focals in VAC's main room at the Brooklyn show last year and it was just great. I do think the 160iSE probably gets close to the sound of the Statement level gear in terms of refinement, although not power of course. And then your IQ gear is at yet a higher level than that. I do hope that eventually the IQ technology is trickled down to the 160i level too. I believe some version of it can be trickled down to the integrated level, but I could be wrong on this. VAC will probably tell us at some point what is going to be possible in the future. By the way, I understand that Brent uses the 160iSE for his personal use, and Kevin does or has done so at some point too. |
A-
Thank you for your kind words about my system. It has truly been a labor of love.
I think you are correct - its probably just a matter of time before there is some trickle-down from the IQ technology. You are also right about Brent and Kevin using the SE - Brent does and I think Kevin did. I think the 160SE is probably the best value, by far, in VAC gear today. |
Any idea how much VAC charges for the SE upgrade of the 160i? |
Depending upon what you have done, last pricing I heard was between $4-6K. I would call VAC for the specifics. |
An update on my continued success with resonance control experiments.
First, as I mentioned earlier above, I had excellent luck with one Stillpoints LPI which I just happened to have lying around that I placed between V8, V6 and V2. With this knowledge I tried adding a second LPI, this new one now perched on the right edge of the VAC's chassis, just on the right of and slightly above V7 (rightmost driver 12AU7) and below V11 (rightmost KT88). This second LPI also had a very positive effect, moving the sound further along the path that the first LPI took - i.e., more smoothness/sweetness in vocals, elimination of edge, even more coherent and deep soundstage.
Second, I switched from the old version of Tubemonger's 9-pin socket savers for all of the 12AU7s and 12AX7s in the 160iSE to his new ones based on the McMurdo sockets. The new ones are much better. These things allow you to swap tubes without wear and tear on the VAC sockets, but importantly they have distinct sonic benefits too. The sound thickens in a good way, filling out with more body and color. Also definitely recommended.
And BTW as I mentioned before I also use Herbie's tube dampers on all tubes. I really like the effect of those too.
As Mike Oltz remarked to me recently, I have been learning that all sorts of vibrations are the enemy of good sound! |
I recently purchased the VAC Sigma 160i se prior to this I owned the Sigma 160i. What I hear is a much improved mid range, better pace and rhythm and also a much better and tighter bass. The overall sound is probably a good 30% better than the base 160i. In my opinion it was money well spent for the upgrade to the se version this time around. I use nos tubes all the way through also and that makes a pretty significant improvement to an already special amplifier. |
Dan (Ballhog), were you able to compare them side by side? It doesn't sound like you did.
Did you buy the SE new or used? I think I bought your old 160i Dan.
I'm considering the SE upgrade later this year, but I haven't decided whether to look for a used SE and sell my 160i, or send my 160i in for the upgrade. |
The SE's are very hard to find, as people don't really want to give then up after an upgrade. If it were me, when ready I would just have VAC do the upgrade to your 160i. That way they could also check it out and you could upgrade exactly what you wanted, thereby possibly keeping costs down if you didn't need the full upgrade. I have discovered that it never hurts to have them check out my VAC gear to make sure it is performing as it should. Good luck! |
Just an update about what I now find to be the best placement of the two Stillpoints LPIs I have. The first one remains in the triangle between V2, V6 and V8. The second one is in the very front left, in front of the two phono tubes V1 & V2. The preamp section seems to benefit from the resonance reducing action of the LPIs.
I continue to be amazed at the sound I get from the VAC 160iSE. |
Thanks Fplanner2000, I am probably going to go that route. Since I also like the black faceplate with gold knobs combo that I currently have. It would make it even harder to find a SE for sale that has that black/gold combination.
Also, as you mentioned, I don't need all of the upgrades. I don't use the phono stage, and I don't need balanced inputs since I am using High Fidelity cables. |
I understand that Mike Oltz of Xtreme Fidelity has a fully loaded demo VAC 160iSE for sale with he moving coil and balanced output options. If anyone has an interest you might get in touch with him. |
