Wrm57 I can't say that the outperformance is night and day. The 300.1a was certainly beautiful sounding, the best I had heard till then. And I may not have had all the updates. I ran the amp in fixed mode and used the preamp's volume controls. I almost never had the volume knob past 9 o' clock with digital, only with vinyl.
Truemaineiac, thanks for the tip on the Genalex reissues. Might try them. |
Also, thanks Jmcgrogan2. Simplicity was a major factor for me too: fewer cables, less space, fewer connections to fuss with. Easier and cheaper to swap (and check tubes) as needed was another important factor. Lower power draw was a factor too. Originally I was thinking of the 160i which my guess is would have been the approximate sonic equal in my set-up of the separates I had before. BTW the VAC separates I had before were 2 and 3+ years old, and so probably did not include all the updates that Wrm57 just got on his set.
Wig, I am now using PSvane KT88 T-IIs as power tubes and these seem perhaps just a bit better than the VAC KT88SCs that the unit came with. I may eventually try some of the other Chinese tubes that you mentioned. Did you ever try the Shuguang Black Treasures? I hear they need 200-300 hours of burn-in? I would probably have them professionally tested and burned in if I ever tried them.
Kevin mentioned once in the context of my 300.1a that one needs to take particular care with power tubes in these applications. I had until recently been using some NOS-fitted KT88 socket savers which may have been the cause of some new stock tube failures as the fit was rather tight. I would love to get some NOS Genalex tubes but they seem extinct or available only as used and very expensive. |
Tboooe, don't know the Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution specifically, but I have heard some great SF speakers in shows and dealer rooms. Also superb for midrange and vocals particularly I recall and have read. So sounds like a good match with VAC. The Evolution's 86db sensitivity might permit the use of the 160iSE. I guess you would have to demo it. As I mentioned the NOLA Metros are rated for 87db. You might be able to borrow a 160i from a dealer or someone to test the power aspect and then order a 160iSE. Or of course do a home demo of the 160iSE if that is possible. Would be worth a try would be my thought. |
Thanks M-db. Hope a VAC is in your future.
And thanks for the follow up info Wig. |
Hi Rcprince:
Yes, firing straight out is how I have the NOLA Metros too. Mike had suggested that to me. That is how he had them set up and he does know these products well and is great to work with. They disappear quite effectively in my room tis way.
The new NOLAs will be interesting to hear as well in Brooklyn.
Kevin and the VAC team will have their 450IQ amps set up with Focals as well and that will be interesting to hear. Mike mentioned that was about the best sound he has heard.
Thanks |
Here is what I know about this in relation to the 160iSE. You will as always get the best advice from Kevin and Brent which is where I got mine. As you say your Ortofon will likely not have quite enough output for the 160iSE. But given the very low noise/EMI/RFI etc that at least I experience from the phono section of my 160iSE I could perhaps get away with keeping the volume dial at 11 am or 12 noon. The other option is to send the amp to VAC and have them double the step-up ratio. All of this may be possible for the 160i too. You should call them and see. I do know the SUT in the 160iSE is very good indeed. Don't know about the VAC160i. I used my old VAC separates with Bob's Blue Cinemag 1:20/40 SUT, but I now get much better sound from my records with the VAC MC input. Part of that is everything else about the 160iSE, but part of it is also surely the very high quality SUT built into the VAC160iSE. |
It is a fixed value as far as I know. |
John:
I am using VAC KT88 tubes too now. I plan on sticking with those.
Here's what I have liked for the rest. In place of 12AU7s for the three amp section driver tubes on the right front I am using three Philips E80CC SQ - a 12AU7 variant with a higher filament current requirement. I checked with VAC and this is fine to use in this spot. However, it is not OK to use the E80CC as a sub for the 12AU7 needed in the rear left preamp section. I don't know whether the E80CC will work for the 160i.
The preamp 12AU7 and 12AX7 tubes I am using are NOS Raytheon long blackplates, i.e., one of each.
This combo works well for me. What have you liked? |
And I am mostly using two Raytheon 12AX7s for the phono section as well. |
Wig, good to know. Thanks for the update. I have stuck to the stock VAC power tubes, but have been having a lot of fun recently experimenting with various 1950s blackplate Tung Sol 12AU7s and 12AX7s in the preamp section. I also really like NOS Philips longplate 12AX7s there. The Philips E80CC tubes as drivers in the amp section are really great as they add authority, punch and separation very impressively. Also, I am using Herbies O-Ring dampers on all tubes to good effect. The sound I now enjoy is great. |
John:
I don't believe you can use any of those, except possibly the 6550, but I would
check with VAC first as it could be problematic due to slightly different specs from the KT88. |
Hi Wig, I am using the VAC supplied 12ax7s. But I have liked Raytheon blackplates there as well as as Philips. |
Wig, will definitely do that. Thanks for the tip. |
I should mention that Kevin is not 100% sure about the use of E80CC as a replacement for 12AU7 as the three amp driver tubes. Brent said that the higher filament current draw of the E80CC is not a concern, but Kevin did once say to me that there might be other issues that I didn't quite understand when he mentioned them. I do get enough of an improvement in performance from these tubes that I really like using them and plan to continue doing so. This weekend I did have a VAC supplied KT88SC tube fail which I had been using continuously for 16-17 months or so, first in my old VAC 300.1a and then in the VAC160iSE for the last five months. I don't think it has to do with my use of the E80CC as drivers. But I mention all of this as a caution to others who may be considering doing so. |
John, just curious, did you sell your VAC 35/35? It looked kind of interesting, although of course I have no use for it myself as I have my 160iSE. Anyway, after a few months of listening, how does the VAC 35/35's sound compare to your VAC 160i?
Thanks |
By the way, separately Wig mentioned he might look at the new Pass INT-60. |
Wig:
Looking at your VAC 160i ad photo, I have become curious what those two flat discs are for that you have placed on the front chassis surface of your VAC 160i? Are they to dampen vibrations? Do they work well? And who makes them?
Thanks. |
Interesting auction I saw yesterday on EBay for these supposedly very special "pinched waist" version of the E80cc tubes I use as drivers for my 160iSE.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291346306614?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I don't have the pinched waist version myself, just the regular Philips E80CC gold pin version which cost me between $30 and $50 apiece. But these NOS Valvo pinched waist E80CC tubes must be something else, at least judging from the price they sold at! |
Thanks for the update John. Good to know about the VAC 35/35. One of the vintage VACs that has always been interesting to me has been the VAC 30/30 which runs on the 300B. Would not work with my NOLAs which I wouldn't part with anyway, but perhaps with DeVores or something like that the 30/30 or perhaps the 35/35 could be interesting.
Wig, seeing your ad photo gave me the idea of sticking a Stillpoints LPI that I happen to have just as you have in your photo. That is I put it on the front left of the 160iSE chassis just in front of the two 12ax7s for the phono stage. I was quite surprised by the impact. So far I am listening to piano and finding a meaningful elimination of grain that of course I did not know was there before. Vocals seem slightly cleaner too. Makes me curious about your experience, what it is that you use there, and where else you have tried placing them. The Stillpoints LPI I am using is meant either for placing on top of records in turntables or on top of DACs, preamps etc. It is supposed to supposed to dampen resonance by sucking it up somehow and converting it to heat energy. Certainly seems to be working here. Thanks. |
John, one more thing I wanted to mention to you is that i think that any mid-range sweetness you may have lost when you gave up your 35/35 will likely come back if and when you upgrade to the SE version. Just such a gain in mid-range sweetness is what I got when I moved from my old VAC separates to the 160iSE. |
OK, John, perhaps you won't get all the way to the sweetness of the midrange you lost, but I am sure you will get at least some of the way there. Hope to hear the 30/30 somewhere.
And thanks Wig. Unless I am imagining things I am getting an advantage from my LPI sitting on the VAC. BTW I use Herbie's tube dampers on all tubes and like what they do. |
Hi Lak. Unfortunately at least as far i know no one on this thread has heard both the 160iSE and the 160i. I used to have the VAC 300.1a amp and Renaissance Mark 3 preamp, which I think is probably sonically comparable to the 160i, although with more power 150 wpc versus 85 wpc for the 160iSE and 160i which of course are VAC 's integrated models. I found when moving to the new 160iSE from the separates a substantial increase in refinement across the whole spectrum. All VAC amps have a very high and deserved reputation for their mid range and while I was very enamored of my separates, I feel that the new 160iSE integrated betters the separates even in the midrange. The difference in build between the 160iSE and the 160i is better parts - transformers, etc. - similar to those in VAC 's very high end Statement products.
Interested to hear your view point and about your interests. |
I have read good things about that. I am sure you have a very good amp for your purposes Lak. 300Bs are said to be very special tubes and I am sure the Allnic design is great. |
I am using the new SR Red fuse. Very happy with that. |
Thanks Wig for the idea. I'll try it. |
I must admit that I haven't been able to try reversing direction as the fuse is very tightly stuck in its socket. Not the spare outer fuse which comes out fine, but the active fuse which is on the inside and very tight. Do you have to use a fair amount of pressure for that one, more so than the spare, to bring it out? |
I've used as much force as I dare in trying to remove the fuse from its clip. Seems that the silver cap on the lower end of the inside fuse can't make it through the clip - it just jams. I did put it in there originally so you would think it would come out too. Will check with VAC and SR if there is anything I should try. Don't want to break the clip and have to send the amp back to replace it. |
Still jammed. Must be doing something wrong. Can't be that the caps on both ends of the fuse are too thick to go through the clip. Will check further with VAC and SR. Thanks for the help though. |
By the way, I have to tell you that the Stillpoints LPI is the real deal for taming resonance in the VAC chassis. The place to put it is in the space between V8 (leftmost KT88), V2 (right phono 12ax7) and V6 (leftmost driver 12au7). I think you will be blown away by the difference. Even better than where I had it first which was up front left in front of the two phono 12ax7s. |
Did not compare it to anything but the stock fuse. Certainly improved but at the time I had made so many changes it is hard for me to pinpoint the exact difference. I don't recall it was like the difference when I swap tubes. But I do want to try this directional thing with the fuses. |
Thanks Wig. I got it to work after a quick chat with Brent. Didn't realize the active fuse moved out sideways, that is to say left-right and not up-down. The spare fuse comes out up-down but not the active one. From my crouching position behind the amp I could not see the fuse holder properly otherwise I might have figured this out. But in the end I couldn't tell much difference from switching direction. Perhaps the SR fuses are not directional unlike the AH fuses. Anyway I will try it again after some time as I am still getting used to the change in sound from the latest changes, including the use of the LPI on the VAC chassis which as I said above was quite meaningful. |
I think I got it. For the 160i I believe the SR Red arrow should point downwards. That does sound better than the other way around. Actually that is the way I had it originally too by accident. Thanks for the help Wig and Knghifi. |
FPlanner2000, I checked out your very impressive main system at your Audiogon link. We heard much the same IQ setup with Focals in VAC's main room at the Brooklyn show last year and it was just great. I do think the 160iSE probably gets close to the sound of the Statement level gear in terms of refinement, although not power of course. And then your IQ gear is at yet a higher level than that. I do hope that eventually the IQ technology is trickled down to the 160i level too. I believe some version of it can be trickled down to the integrated level, but I could be wrong on this. VAC will probably tell us at some point what is going to be possible in the future. By the way, I understand that Brent uses the 160iSE for his personal use, and Kevin does or has done so at some point too. |
An update on my continued success with resonance control experiments.
First, as I mentioned earlier above, I had excellent luck with one Stillpoints LPI which I just happened to have lying around that I placed between V8, V6 and V2. With this knowledge I tried adding a second LPI, this new one now perched on the right edge of the VAC's chassis, just on the right of and slightly above V7 (rightmost driver 12AU7) and below V11 (rightmost KT88). This second LPI also had a very positive effect, moving the sound further along the path that the first LPI took - i.e., more smoothness/sweetness in vocals, elimination of edge, even more coherent and deep soundstage.
Second, I switched from the old version of Tubemonger's 9-pin socket savers for all of the 12AU7s and 12AX7s in the 160iSE to his new ones based on the McMurdo sockets. The new ones are much better. These things allow you to swap tubes without wear and tear on the VAC sockets, but importantly they have distinct sonic benefits too. The sound thickens in a good way, filling out with more body and color. Also definitely recommended.
And BTW as I mentioned before I also use Herbie's tube dampers on all tubes. I really like the effect of those too.
As Mike Oltz remarked to me recently, I have been learning that all sorts of vibrations are the enemy of good sound! |
I understand that Mike Oltz of Xtreme Fidelity has a fully loaded demo VAC 160iSE for sale with he moving coil and balanced output options. If anyone has an interest you might get in touch with him. |
Just to mention as a further update, that I now find that double damping all tubes in the VAC 160iSE - i.e., preamp, input, output sections - works better than single damping. That is I am now using two of Herbie's HAL-O III dampers on each tube in the VAC. Results are just better - more of the same good stuff. |
Yes, I do actually. I am using two on each output tube. |
I am sure you made a good decision JMcgrogan, I believe better parts, input transformers etc, many the same as the Statement amps. Here is what the VAC website says:
"The Sigma 160i SE (Special Edition) enhances performance by upgrading the input transformers and many passive parts to the types used in the premium Statement instruments. Greater size, detail, speed, and weight is the result."
This is also what Kevin and Brent had explained to me.
I think you will be very happy with your purchase. Enjoy it! |
Just an update about what I now find to be the best placement of the two Stillpoints LPIs I have. The first one remains in the triangle between V2, V6 and V8. The second one is in the very front left, in front of the two phono tubes V1 & V2. The preamp section seems to benefit from the resonance reducing action of the LPIs.
I continue to be amazed at the sound I get from the VAC 160iSE. |
Interesting interview with Kevin. Thanks for the link.
He was also interviewed in TAS. Did you see that? That was interesting too.
|
FWIW as an update I went back to using the stock VAC fuse from the SR Red fuse and now find myself actually liking those best.
|
Glad to hear that you like the SE John. I still love the sound of mine for sure. Recently I cleaned out all my power and signal cable connectors with Deoxit, then cleaned with 99% alcohol, and finally put some Furutech nano liquid on the signal cable connectors. Every thing sounds cleaner and more lively now. |
KngHifi, yes, I believe the transformers in the 160iSE are the same as in the Statement gear, so probably the Lundahl statement level ones.
Your 200IQ sounds like it must be great, perhaps better than my integrated I suppose. As I understood it, an advantage of the integrated is the direct coupling of the tubes to the transformers (?) - that is no use of capacitors. But I am no expert in these matters so I am not sure if I am describing this properly.
No, the KT120 and KT150s cannot be used in the 160iSE from what Kevin and Brent told me.
I have seen good benefits from using Stillpoints - LPIs above as weights on the chassis and ultra aluminums below in damping chassis resonance. I imagine this is one area that VAC probably had to make some compromises, at least relative to the Statement gear, given costs and available chassis space. I am going to try a couple of HRS DPX damping plates on top of the Transformer casings in the next week. I have the amp sitting on top of a SR Tranquility base which is very helpful too.
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JMCGrogan2:
I can vouch for the Furutech Nano Liquid. Don't know anything about the Stabilant treatment you used. I got the best impact from cleaning and treating my speaker posts which were dirty and the speaker cables, as well as all digital cable contacts between MacMini, USB converter and DAC. Where the cables/component connectors were newer I got less benefit, and where they were older and more muck and oxidation had collected I got correspondingly more benefit. The DeOxit on all IC and PC connectors was a big plus for sound initially. And later on I cleaned all the IC and speaker connectors again and applied the Nano liquid, and then I got another big bump up in sound. As I have learned, after cleaning with DeOxit, you must clean the muck off the connectors with 99% isopropyl alcohol. I actually even cleaned some easy to reach male AC receptacles and USB receptacles in various components. |
Knghifi, Kevin makes many interesting comments in it about the things they did to deliver the best sound - optimizing separation of various sections, special parts, the new IQ system, and internal bracing to minimize resonance, etc. Worth reading. |
Yes, worth finding out. I heard from Mike Oltz that IQ is a possibility for the 160iSE, but that it may not be available yet. Hopefully the size of the chassis is not a constraint.
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Rcprince, was Kevin talking about the 160iSE or the Phi200 upgrade to 200IQ? |
Does anyone have any advice/experience on the reliability of Shuguang Black Treasure KT-88Z vs. the competing premium Chinese made brands - PSVane, Sophia? |
FWIW I am switching back to VAC's KT88-SC going forward. Sound is just great I now find and the reliability factor is top class. They test their tubes thoroughly for use in their components. |
