Your situation would seem to be crying out for a sub or two.
|
Guess I should have been a little clearer, not really looking to obtain subterranean bass levels down in the 25hz range or such, just more to flesh out the bass I have, maybe more punch and drive maybe better description?
Would like to not add subs, preamp does not have a sub out so would have to do with speaker wiring.
|
Subs help out with much more than low bass and could very well help do exactly what you're looking for along with possibly improving upper frequencies and overall soundstaging and imaging. You don't need (or even want) a sub out -- that's more of a home theater thing. Most subs will work with any line out from your preamp as well as at speaker level. There are good companies that sell subs direct (i.e. SVS, Hsu among others) that offer generous in-home, low/no-risk trial periods and great customer support. If you haven't heard what a good sub properly set up in a system can do, especially in your particular situation, I'd strongly suggest considering this. Best of luck. |
Thank you Soix!
I honestly must say I had never considered a sub for my music rig. Guess I figured a well matched setup just did not need or want a sub?
And I do know just how well a good sub can work on the ht system, my ht rig cost even more than my music (have to keep the wife happy!) and it includes a REL Stentor 2 sub which will literally loosen your bowels on certain action movies...just as it is intended too.
But I had considered this to be a little unnatural and more a consequence of todays age where we expect action movies to involve us so deeply we "feel" the explosions as much as hear them.
Maybe I need to "borrow" it for a few days and see what effect it has.... |
How best would I connect a sub to my system?
I use balanced interconnects between preamp and power amp
could i just use the regular rca outs from my preamp that are unused right now? |
Uber, I found out that my room has what is called a "bass null" at pretty much the only place I can put the sofa. When I stand at the back or sides of the room, the bass goes really deep and strong, but not when seated on the sofa. It has to do with the geometry of the room, and there is not much I can do about it, as, like you, I'm not really wanting to do the sub thing.
|
Hey MTROT, that is very interesting as I thought that if I stood in the middle of the room that bass was slightly improved but as you say the rooms are what they are.
As I have a rel stentor 2 sub in my ht rig, I am going to give it a try, when I can summon up the enthusiasm to move 110lb of dead weight from there to my music room that is.......... |
Make sure the guy with the sub has a good return policy. Heh heh.
I'm no sub expert, but REL seems to favor speaker level output to their subs if you can do it. I read a review of your sub where the reviewer preferred it that way for music duties. Anyway, you'll want to experiment with the crossover and volume to get it to disappear and blend seamlessly with your speakers. Great speakers BTW. Always liked Ushers. Best of luck and keep us posted. Remember, lift with your legs.
|
uberwaltz however the lower bass is not, what is there is nice and tight but does not seem to go overly low. Just a thought I remember reading. Your problem may be the AR LS2’s coupling cap, there has been quite a bit of talk about changing it on the net. As if it is too small in uF value, it may roll off the bass signal into the Krell’s too early, then giving less low bass. to the speakers. Cheers George |
Thank you George
I will research that as well.... |
I owned these ushers for years and they had plenty of bass. I think it's your krell amp. IMO a lot of the krell amps that I have heard don't have a good bottom end, similar to carver amps, a lot of power but no lower end.
i did add bags of sand in that compartment below the speaker terminals on the back to tighten up the bass |
" I owned these ushers for years and they had plenty of bass. I think it's your krell amp. IMO a lot of the krell amps that I have heard don't have a good bottom end, similar to carver amps, a lot of power but no lower end."
For bass, his Krell is the strongest component. I had 2 of them. I can't be 100% sure, but I would say the preamp is the weak component. |
Now I am confused...lol
Some say the Krell is the problem, others say the preamp
Going to perform some tests today swapping components out of my ht rig like front speakers, power amp etc
Results soon...... |
Alright, have performed a couple of tests this morning using 2 reference cd,s . Pat Benatar, best shots and Nonzamo by IQ, both have some really good tight punch bass lines in them and soaring vocals( for rock anyway!)
First I pulled the ht fronts and swapped them in, these are sonus faber concerto grand piano and they gel perfectly in the ht rig but here with no other changes....a complete disaster!
Really muffled bass of miniscule proportions, nasal vocals and soundstage all but gone, could just be equipment matchs but also possible that in the ht rig I have the sub crossed over at 70hz so just maybe I do not even know the letdown as it is not apparent there, or maybe they just work much better with the components in the ht rig?
Whatever hooked the Ushers back up and back to near bliss.
Next I swapped out the Krell poweramp for the ht 2 channel poweramp( i have Emotiva xpa2 and xpa5 for ht duty). Different......
Not bad just ...different.....
I would say the bass was maybe a little deeper but not as tight, vocals seemed strong and sweet but the soundstage was possibly a little more compressed. Overall I think the Krell did a better job but the difference was nowhere near as drastic as the speaker swap.
I know Emotiva does not have the best rep but seriously the bang for the buck at 1300 for both amps used off eBay was not to be missed and they work extremely well in the ht rig.
Looks like the next step has to be moving the behemoth 110lb REL sub in and giving that a whirl...I am working up to that one..... |
I would definitely connect the REL sub at speaker level, rather than to the RCA outputs of the preamp. For several reasons:
1)The input impedance of the line-level (RCA) inputs of the REL sub is very probably 10K (which is the line-level input impedance of the Stentor III and many other REL subs). That is too low for the LS2 to drive without significant deep bass rolloff. ARC recommends a minimum load of 20K for the LS2 and for many of their other line stages and preamps.
2)The LS2 drives its RCA outputs with the same signal that is provided to pin 2 of its XLR output connectors. Application of a 10K load to that signal but not to the other signal in the balanced signal pair (XLR pin 3) will to some degree unbalance the signals received by the Krell amp, and very possibly affect the sonics produced by the main speakers.
3)REL recommends using speaker-level inputs where possible, so that the sonic character of the main power amp is reflected in the signals received by the sub as well as by the main speakers.
4)On the Stentor III, at least, the two RCA inputs have sensitivities that differ by 12 db, which would have to be compensated for either with an attenuator that you may not have, or by using just one of the inputs and using a y-adapter to sum the two channels externally (which is generally undesirable, IMO, and in this case would almost certainly have major adverse effects on the signals received by both the Krell amp and the sub).
Also, the suggestion George made about the LS2’s coupling caps was the first thing that occurred to me when reading your initial post. But it appears that your Krell amp has an input impedance of 100K, which is high enough to make that a non-issue.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
|
Thank you Al!
Couple of thoughts here....how best to wire with speaker terminals? Can i just piggyback another speaker cable from one set of terminals on the Krell to the sub or?
Also bear in mind this is just a test as the REL belongs in the ht rig and from what I heard from the Sonus Faber speakers this morning needs to stay there...lol.
Thoughts on a reasonable priced sub if this test helps out?
Thank you |
Another option I could consider for a sub is to get a unpowered sub and a dedicated sub amp which I could feed with a line out direct out of the ls2?
Thoughts? |
Yes, assuming you have the Neutrik Speakon cable that is normally used to connect the unbalanced speaker-level input of REL subs to amp outputs, and assuming the amp is not being used in bridged mode, just piggy-back the wires from that cable onto the amp's output terminals. (Red and Yellow to right + and left + on the amp, respectively, although it wouldn't matter if those connections were interchanged, and Black to either right - or left - on the amp).
Regarding a recommendation for a new sub, the brands Soix mentioned earlier seem to generally garner favorable comments, although I have no experience with them or with other competitive models. My only suggestion, given my earlier comments and assuming that you would want to purchase one sub rather than two, is to be sure to choose a model that provides left and right speaker-level inputs. There are a lot of subs which don't meet those criteria.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
|
Another option I could consider for a sub is to get a unpowered sub and a dedicated sub amp which I could feed with a line out direct out of the ls2? There aren’t a great many choices of unpowered subs that are available these days, and you would have to choose an amp having very high input impedance to minimize the possibility of sonic issues resulting from item 2 in my first post above. So I suspect it would be best to go with a powered sub providing speaker-level inputs. Regards, -- Al |
Al, again many thanks for your time and information.
At present I do not have the speakon connector for the rel but that is easily resolved, just glad to know I can then just piggy back off the Krell.
a couple of the svs subs i quickly looked at did NOT have the speaker level inputs only line level so have to research thouroughly before i think about buying anything |
Yes, assuming you have the Neutrik Speakon cable that is normally used to connect the unbalanced speaker-level input of REL subs to amp outputs, and assuming the amp is not being used in bridged mode, just piggy-back the wires from that cable onto the amp's output terminals. (Red and Yellow to right + and left + on the amp, respectively, although it wouldn't matter if those connections were interchanged, and Black to either right - or left - on the amp).
Sorry to be a simpleton but I am now confused.
Your statement indicates three wires but the neutrik speakon connectors and cable i have been looking at just now only are 2 pole/conductor?
What am I missing? |
Not sure how to explain that. All of the Speakon cables for REL subs that I have knowledge of have three conductors, one for left channel +, one for right channel +, and one for ground. A two-conductor cable will not enable you to input both channels to the sub.
Regards,
-- Al
|
well I was just looking at the connectors in general on ebay and they all looked like two conductor, not quite sure what rel would be doing different but time to investigate! |
hah, a simple search using "rel neutrik speakon" brought up exactly what you described, yellow red and black!
So simple when you know...lol
thank yu |
Well, quick update
It does indeed appear that the addition of a sub gave me just what I looking for in my room with my equipment, sure it will not be everybodies solution but I am happy with the results.
I actually bought a PSB Subsonic 6i from craigslist yesterday at a very fair price in excellent shape and it was very easy to tune in to give me just what I was looking for.
Thank you everybody for your assistance! |
Well I fixed the bass response on my speakers big time
I changed the power amp to a BAT VK600SE
What a difference!
Not only has it filled out the bottom end and tightened it up no end it has also allowed MUCH higher overall volume levels without an edginess setting in as it did with the krell. I can now watch the windows bow in and out with the bass pressure waves...lol
However I would say that it does appear to have lost a small amount of soundstage, hard to judge but it does seem less spacious. Guess there never is a total win win situation.... |
