I have a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 that I’ve owned for about 12 years. I think they’re fantastic. Just curious... have there been driver advancements that I might benefit from? Has anyone tried swapping out drivers and if so, were you pleased with the results?
21 years!!! You are a definite candidate for the tweeters ferro fluid clean out and replenish. "This will make your Thiels sing again, do not discount it as they are well over the date where the ferro fluid has dried out into glug and killing the performance of that great tweeter. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1898655 Your sound will open out more, become more dynamic, even the bass will have better leading edge to it’s snap.
Capacitors on the tweeter are all polypropylene (plastics) and don’t go bad like electros do, which would be on the bass.
Stereophile: Nearly all the capacitors are polypropylene
I've owned my 3.6s for about 21 years and am experiencing a similar issue. I had my amp (Naim NAP300DR) updated about 1 1/2 years ago and that's when I first noticed an upper-mid/lower-upper harshness and "hashy" sound. I'm still not sure if the issue is in the speakers or elsewhere. I'm waiting for the speaker upgrades to become available and am also looking into a possible component issue. But--the 3.6s are great speakers and worth the effort.
Feel free to join us over on the Thiel Owners thread. There are quite a few fans of the 3.6 loudspeaker. It appears that you have an extensive history w/ Thiel Audio- my kind of Audiophile.
@unsound thanks! Any idea what these pending upgrades are going to cost or what one could expect with respect to changes in sound quality from the CS-3.6.
The OEM cross-overs have components included to compensate for specific driver irregularities. Any substitute driver replacements will probably necessitate cross-over changes to maintain performance virtues.
A word of caution; even on some of the older models that might appear to use off the shelf drivers are actually made to order, modified for Thiel versions. Standard, over the counter drivers won’t work the same.
Hello - I just watched a short PS Audio YouTube video discussing the importance of replacing dried out capacitors in speaker crossover networks over 20 years old.
I was just wondering if there is a tutorial, or better yet if anyone has either a kit or upgrade service to renew whatever capacitors are in the Thiel CS 3.6 crossover.
Maybe be some of the veiling that I am getting with my system, most notably my difficulty discerning the meaning of lyrics/vocals without reading the lyrics on the album liner - could be brought up to modern levels of perfect focus/clarity.
I’m loving my Thiel CS 3.6’S that I purchased used about 7 or 8 years ago and paid $1150 for. They sit on the Sound Anchors stands. I do need a recommendation on what type of “hockey puck” to set in the space between the bottoms of the speakers and the tops of the Sound Anchors stands.
There is a drop-in replacement soft dome tweeter diaphragm available for the 3.6 tweeter.. The 2 user reviews are very positive. One reported an improvement after it broke in.
If you are interested in learning more than you ever wanted to know about Thiel speakers I recommend that you read the Thiel Owners thread on this forum. It takes several nights of reading but you will come away with a new appreciation for your speakers.
The main defining characteristic of Thiels is that Jim used first order crossovers on all of his later models. That means that each driver has to operate over an unusually broad frequency range which is a hard thing for a driver to do. By the time your speakers were produced Thiel was completely using custom drivers - many of them manufactured in house. This design decision was due to Jim's belief that phase and time coherence was critical to getting accurate sound.
For the reason above you will not be able to find non-Thiel drivers that will work in your speakers. They simply are not designed to work over the frequency range that Thiel designed his drivers for. The only company using first order crossovers that I know of is Vandersteen.
Regarding amplification I run a Krell KSA 300S which doubles power down into 2 ohms. You'll see in the Thiel thread that the company used high current amplifiers like the Krell to drive their speakers. Other users report good results with less robust amplifiers but I believe that one of the reason my CS6's sound so good is because my Krell can handle the difficult impedance curve with ease.
Rob Gillum, a former Thiel employee, has started a company called Coherent Source Service to repair and maintain Thiel speakers. I blew one of my woofers, for example, and Rob was able to rebuild it. He does have some hot rod crossover kits for various models but I don't know if the 3.6 is one of them. Before you email or call him you'll need to get the serial numbers of your speakers so you can let him know that info. I would ask him about the brightness you experience and see if he has any suggestions.
It's going to be really hard to improve on your 3.6's. I went to AXPONA and the Florida show a couple years ago and I came away amazed at how well my system compares to most of the megabuck systems. The one set of speakers that really impressed me (MBL 101E Mk II) were $70K. I won't be buying those anytime soon.
Finally, the brightness you are hearing may be an issue with room acoustics. It doesn't take much flutter echo to affect the sound. Also, you might be experiencing the effect of early reflections from the walls, ceiling, or floor. If you haven't done some serious work on your room I would work on that before messing with your speakers.
Lots of good points above. I’ve got some 2 2’s, once I matched them up with the correct components, I never wanted to change them out. Had them since around 1993.
My epiphany came by not matching them with a high wattage amp(s) (oh, the watts), but gobs of current. This is probably why a lot of Thiel owners settled on Balanced Audio Technology back in the day. Matched with the optional bat paks and six paks (oil filled capacitors) I found an ease and sweetness I’d been lacking. And the soundstage, oh my.
I plan to check into the current components and upgrades being discussed on the Thiel group. The 3.6’s are a speaker you could keep for a long, long time given the room to breath and the right electronics.
unsound is correct...there are literally hundreds of posts in the Thiel Owners thread regarding all the work being done on mods & upgrades for legacy Thiels. Preliminary projects are offering replacement crossovers that feature top-level, modern components & construction, as well as sourcing modern driver components that will match the voicing of our existing speakers (I have CS 3.5's) as much as possible. These projects have former Thiel employees & leadership behind them, including Jim Thiel's brother, Tom. As unsound said, the resolution of the Thiel Audio bankruptcy has a lot of things in limbo, but in the meantime, Rob Gillum (who likely help build your 3.6's) has opened Coherent Source Service near the old Thiel factory & can help with repairs/parts/service should you need them.
This will make your Thiels sing again, do not discount it as they are well over the date where the ferro fluid has dried out into glug and killing the performance of that great tweeter. https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1898655 Your sound will open out more, become more dynamic, even the bass will have better leading edge to it's snap.
@unsound - When you say “upgrades pending” do you mean that you are working on some upgrades or that some kind of upgrades will be offered in the future?
@soix Thanks! I am a long-time Thiel fan. I fell in love with the CS 1.5 when I was in college, during the early 1990s. I bought a pair brand new and still have them!
The 1.6 was a big improvement on the 1.5 and, as you mentioned, the tweeter is a big part of that difference. Plus - what a beautiful cabinet design. If I could soften the tweet on the 3.6, I would. I don’t mean that I would make it quieter, but just a bit less bright. This brightness isn’t always apparent, but if a recording has a lot of high frequency noise, like some rock recordings do, it gets really bright in a hurry. But then, to listen to Muse’s Absolution CD is a delight. It’s very particular to the recording.
@masi61 - I have an Anthem Pre2L Preamp and an Anthem Amp2 Power amp. This is a nice match, but I am certain, for a tremendous amount of money, I could probably do better. That’s the problem - a first world problem - I am very happy with what I have. It’s very good. But to get a notch better, I have to spend a fortune.
MikeyBc33 - I think you might well be right... I know there are some “known” upgrades for the CS 2.4 and was wondering if something similar was available for the 3.6.
@gpaulmg1: just curious what amp you are using with the 3.6’s?
My understanding is is that these are lower efficiency speakers that take some trial and error to get a proper impedance match for best sound. They only sound so-so when paired with a lower powered amp. There is a really lengthy Thiel thread that is ongoing and I’d swear I read something from Tom Thiel stating that there is a crossover upgrade being developed. There is also still a Thiel restoration shop (I believe) in Lexington. Not sure if it is just for the cabinet refinishing or if they also do driver/crossover upgrades and repair.
Another question about the 3.6’s: how do you have them attached to he floor? Are you using spikes, stands or some other tweak? Just curious which aberration you are seeking to suppress or which attribute you are trying to improve upon.
Great speakers! I think Thiel made big improvements to their drivers over the years, so yeah I think there are probably some benefits brought by the newer drivers. Whether YOU think they are an improvement is another matter. I’ll just say I had the CS 1.6es in my system, and I found the tweeter in that model to be very refined and one of the best I’ve heard, and I wouldn’t say that about the CS 1.5s (I’d guess the tweet in the 3.6es is better though). The midwoof was excellent as well and melded seamlessly with the tweeter. I wouldn’t mess with replacing drivers on the 3.6es as who knows how they’ll play with the older crossover, plus used Thiels can be had relatively cheaply so I’d go that route and just sell them if they’re not a marked improvement over your 3.6es. But you’d have to go with something like the CS6 to match the bass output of the 3.6, so even used you’re looking at $3500 or so to scratch any itches you may have. I think I’d just stay with the excellent 3.6es since you like them so much, but I’d also go listen to some Vandersteens just to see if their newer models offer anything you might like. FWIW.
One of Thiel’s better speakers. A lot of thought and care went into that crossover to make those particular drivers work very well together. Change one of them, even if it is more "advanced" and it will probably turn into a Sh!t show.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
