I need some splicing tape............
I hate to order a 100 foot roll of splicing tape when
all I need is maybe 1 foot. (rediculous to Me)
I'm sure a bunch of You guys have a multi lifetime
supply. So here's my request...If I send You a Stamped Self adressed envelope & a few bucks, Could You slip
a couple of lengths of 1" splice tape inside
the envelope & drop it in a mail box at your leisure?
by the way USRecordingmedia was out of the tape when I last
checked.
THANKS. |
Socoaste, see my post of 11/30/08 above. This is all you need. |
Socoaste,
Re-read point #5 in my original post.
You've got a multi-thousand dollar vinyl rig and won't spend $5 for a roll of tape? Sorry, that's too cheap even for me.
FWIW, my experiences with the shipping tape Zargon uses were less successful. Every belt I made using such tape (both 3M brand and others) resulted in a splice that eventually spread, leaving glue residue on platter and motor spindle. Different climates maybe?
|
Doug Your killing Me,
First of all the 1" tape I seen at usrecordingmedia,com
was 25.97 not 5.00.
My main peeve is I did not want to waste all that tape,
1 foot would probably last Me a lifetime. How many guys
here purchased 100 foot rolls of tape, 10? that's a
thousand feet of tape in order to make a few belts?
I didn't realize It would be such a big stinking deal
to slip a piece of tape into an envelope in the effort
to save some natural resources in this throw away society.
I will order the 100 foot roll & toss the other 99 feet
into the garbage & just maybe, It will find It's way to
the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.
Thanks for the tip. |
Socoaste,
I have an extra roll that I've used for a splice or two. The only slight downside, to me anyway, is that it is white.
Your desire to conserve is appreciated, but I can't imagine anyone using this etched mylar belt that won't need to make at least two or three per year.
Yes! They do wear and it is audible when you put a fresh belt on. The splicing tape will still make it eventually to the GPGP, one belt at a time. :-) |
Socoaste,
Apologies for a spot of fun. No assault on the Pacific was intended or implied, and none is countenanced.
Apologies also for misquoting the tape price. We owe you the differential of $20.97, less the value of a single-user license for the amortized value of R&D costs for this and other tweaks we've made freely available rather than selling. (Your use thereof constitutes your consent to our licensing agreement, which remains unpublished but runs pretty much entirely in our favor.)
I've asked Accounting to complete a net value assessment of the transaction, after which I'll order a check cut or we'll invoice you, as the case may require.
Please respond in the affirmative confirming your understanding and mutual agreement, and forward your SSN/TIN so we can 1099 you.
|
I dont do 1099's! Just send cash in a non windowed
envelope as I would not want that plasticized window
material to make It's way to the GPGP!
Better yet....Why don't We just call It even as a way of My
saying Thanks for Your dedication & determination to the further advancement of platter motor interface.
Deal?
Incidentally, I Myself plan to do a little bit of
messing around & will be attempting to make a coccobolo
motor pulley for My Teres Ref. motor. |
Cool idea for the motor pulley. That would look nice.
If you can, I've always been curious about how a pulley with flat sides (rather than convex/bowed) would work. I've no objection to the top and bottom lips, to keep the belt sliding off, but a pulley with a flat cross-section in the working area would provide more surface area, so more grip and less slippage - or so it seems to me. It wouldn't provide the self-centering function of the bow, so the belt splice and the levelling of all components would have to be pretty accurate.
If you can make one and it works, I'll gladly trade you some made up belts or a length of splicing tape for one. |
Doug, do you mean a Galibier-like pulley? ;-) Socoaste, the wood pulley does sound like a cool idea and that's a great wood to machine. A good lathe is one tool I still don't have.
|
I only use straight profile non-convex/concave pulleys on my tape drive table. Anything else I tried didn't work anyway. I assumed that's what Teres used.
Yes, it is a PITA to get the belt running properly but once set up, it's fine. You really need a leveling mechanism (which I have) under the motor to make it easier to true up the tape rotation. |
Dan,
I'm unfamiliar with a Galibier-like pulley, but if yours is straight while mine isn't, I think I understand.
Frank,
Glad to hear a second vote that non-convex works. Fully agree that very careful levelling is required. If one foot is off by even a few thousandths... there goes the tape. No problem normally, as you said.
|
Hey I just got through acid etching the metallic coating, or (prism)
on some new mylar that I just received from McCormicks,
(1/2" Halographic) now I am wondering If I even got the correct Mylar.
After the acid etching, I rinsed it off & the Mylar looks
like regular basic standard clear Mylar, I do not see
any hint of any embossing on the Mylar.
Did I get the wrong Mylar?
Also am trying out a new mod on the pulley & will report any improvements, & I have a custom one off belt I had a belt mfr make that didn't impress, but I think I came up
with an idea that will surely improve it. more later....
In the mean time.....I'll install the new modified mylar
belt (that looks like regular Mylar) on for some spinning, & splice it with scotch tape until I get some real splicing tape. |
The embossed pattern itself is too fine to see. The only visible evidence is a blurry prismatic/rainbow effect when the light catches it at just the right angle.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
|
There was a posting over at Audio Asylum that speaks to treating silk thread with an auto parts belt treatment spray, making it tackier and able to grip better with little slippage. Here's the content of the relevent information, including a good link and cheap source for 100% silk thread.
Enjoy,
Bob
------------------
It is Griffin Silk Bead Cord. Link below for online supply:
http://www.artbeads.com/stringing-materials-griffin-silk-bead-cord.html
The belt dressing is common. The stuff I'm using is called "Belt-Ease". It comes in a spray can and can be bought from the auto parts stores around here.
To apply:
I remove the silk "belt" from the TT and place in a small bowl or similar container. (a clean tin can)
Then spray the belt with enough "Belt-Ease" to fully saturate the belt with the product.
Soak.
Remove the belt from the bowl of "Belt-Ease" and place on a newspaper or similar disposable material and allow the silk to evaporate most of the "Belt-Ease" overnight.
Next day: wipe the silk belt with a clean paper towel. At this point the silk will still be damp but also showing some tackiness.
Use it like that. It will dry over several days but remain slightly tacky to the touch. That's How I use it on the silk bead cord.
-Steve |
Yes, Doug. Thom has the pulleys made with a flat surface with a small lip top and bottom. Much like a tape guide from R2R.
The easiest method I have found to locate the textured side is using a micro-fibre cloth. One side of the mylar will glide along, the other will grab the cloth.
I have gotten belt dressing on my hands plenty of times. I'm sure some folks are having good results, but I don't want that stuff on my table. The static is not an issue for me. |
Thanks, Dan. Wonder if Thom would drill me one to fit? (Hint!)
I considered auto belt dressing 4-5 years ago, and was advised not to for the reason Dan just mentioned. I don't want residue building up on my table either, I have enough trouble controlling cat hairs without glueing them to the platter.
I do understand why silk thread users are seeking improvement, since it's inferior to any mylar tape, but the AA fellow would save time if he did a little research before repeating failed experiments. Multiple Teres/Galibier owners tried and rejected silk thread back in 2002-2003. Even 1 mil mylar works better, and Teres/Galibier/Redpoint tables advanced beyond that years ago. The belt we're discussing here is at least four generations improved over silk thread/fishing line in my experience.
|
No doubt you are right, about both the silk vs mylar improvement and the stickiness and dust/hair collecting aspect. Unfortunately I have a VPI morot and spindle, so it's pinched and not flat. So I can't use the mylar solution for now.
Would that I could, unless you can point to a spindle I can use as a replacement (I've looked at earlier posts and see references to it but no specific recommendation or link - perhaps I missed it). Always up for a DIY challenge.
Bob |
Bob,
Forgot you had that style of spindle, sorry. Maybe Socoaste can make you a new one from cocobolo. :-)
The platter rim must be straight vertical and flat at belt height. The TT motor must be sufficiently quiet and non-cogging so that the sonic benefits of more linear coupling TO the motor outweigh the higher transmission of noise and cogging FROM the motor. Given all those conditions, it just needs someone with access to a lathe and a drill press to make a replacement spindle.
|
I've posted a question in a few places on where I can find an online site that sells spindles that I may be able to use for the mylar tape. I'll update here if I locate a source. My web search didn't uncover anything of use (a lot of hits on chair and railing spindles :-)
Bob |
Technically, what you're looking for isn't a "spindle", it's a "capstan".
I used the proper term in my OP, but then we got lazy, hazy, crazy.... |
Somewhere around 1/2" diameter bar stock, drilled for the motor spindle size, a couple of thousandths by ~5/8" landing. |
The rsponse I got on DIY Audio was that these things are probably custome manufactured for the TT designers and not stocked somewhere.
There was also another interesting observation that I feel should be passed on. The mylar belt will definitely be tensioned more than a rubber O ring or thread. Therefore the motor has to be able to handle the additional strain due to this tension, meaning more torque will probably be needed. And there will also be the increased sideways pull on its bearings.
Bob |
Therefore the motor has to be able to handle the additional strain due to this tension, meaning more torque will probably be needed. I agree in general, however I don't find this to be entirely true with the Maxon motor that is supplied with my Galibier. I tension the mylar pretty high, probably more than most other Galibier\mylar users. The stock motor works just fine at speed where torque is not as much of an issue, but I always give the platter a push to start and I don't stop the motor anymore to change records. Starting the platter rotation is probably when the torque matters most with a belt drive. And there will also be the increased sideways pull on its bearings. True. However, the Maxon motor side load spec is much higher than I could ever get with the tension on the mylar. I've tried this and the motor pod tips before reaching the kind of strain that would approach the side load. I don't have a way to measure what the strain is at the tipping point but it does take a fair amount of force to deflect the belt. The motor/platter coupling one can achieve with the mylar is surprising. As Doug points out, the motor needs to be very quiet because this kind of coupling will transfer excess noise to a platter. |
Wow, I just acid etched a belt from the ones Thom made me for my Serac and there is a nice improvement in dynamics. Great tweak, I'll be making up extra belts in the next few weeks. |
Jp11801,
Glad another listener is enjoying the improvement from this little tweak.
***
Following up on the capstan topic, Palasr was kind enough to mail me four capstans he's used on his Gavia. This was so I could try one with straight vertical sides, rather than the mildly convex shape supplied by Teres.
Three of the four were too large in diameter for the range of my motor controller. The stock Galibier capstan worked however, so we A/B'd with our Teres capstan.
On our table, the Teres capstan was the winner, slightly less smearing and better micro-dynamics.
My hypothesis is that the brass Galibier capstan's smooth finish may allow more slippage than the slightly (intentionally) coarse finish of the Teres capstan, which is made of some non-metallic material that I can't identify.
Kudos to Chris for supplying a great performing material, and a suggestion to Thom and Galibier owners that a less polished capstan might further improve performance.
Best of all (I think) would be a straight-sided capstan with the set screw mounting used by Galibier, but made of the material used by Teres. Any takers?
|
Hello Doug was hopping you are others may have an answer to your long ago last post. My redpoints drive pulley has worn due to many hours of use. The brass make up has worn in to the friction and sliping of the mylar belt. Im still able to enjoy the TT but sure would like to have something on hand ready when the time comes. The pulley is super glued on so getting the original off will be a task in its self. Hopping all is going well Mike |
Hi Mike. Acetone will dissolve cyanoacrylate adhesives (aka 'Super Glue'). Work with the motor upside-down to keep residue from flowing down the shaft into the bearings. I use Lok-tite. Super Glue seems like overkill to me.
I haven't found anyone to make a replacement capstan but perhaps that's because I haven't looked. ;) I presume any machine shop could do it. AFAIK all they'd need would be a lathe, a drill press and a length of bar stock cut from the material of your choice. A local tech school or high school shop might enjoy a little project.
|
While I don't use mylar belts I was googling and found this link regarding ultrasonically sealed mylar belts. Maybe it will be of interest. mylar belts |
Hey Doug always a pleasure hearing from ya. Many thanks for the info. Btw there's still nothing out there that out preforms your mylar engineered tape. Mike |
George a,
Thanks for that link. Splicing the belt cleanly and with the two ends precisely aligned is certainly the most difficult aspect of this. Mylar tape has no forgiveness so close doesn't count, the splice has to be perfect. I've ruined more than one...
I looked into companies like that one but none had the right material (holographically textured mylar tape but WITHOUT the silver reflective layer). So we end up buying the finished tape and stripping off the silver layer before splicing. What we do for love... :)
***
Thanks, Mike. Paul's not only a science/engineering wiz, he's a mean chef too. Am I livin' lucky or what? :)
|
Hi Doug,
Thank you so very much for your upgraded mylar belt. I have a heavily tweaked VPI Scout (which I love), but there was a recording which gave me fits. Joseph Haydn Streichquartette on Telefunken, which I am convinced was recorded to drive me insane, was easily sorted after using the belt as you've described. You and Paul are to be commended. Thanks a thousand times.
Don |
Hi Don,
Thanks for reviving this thread from the depths of time... well, 2011. You must have tweaked your Scout quite a bit to use a belt like this... impressive.
Like you, we've always used natural instrument recordings to test any system or component. The pre-19th C. instruments one typically gets on labels like Telefunken are the sternest tests of all. Classical and Baroque instruments favored complex harmonic overtones more than their modern counterparts, which emphasize the fundamental in order to fill large, modern concert halls. The timbre of a Baroque oboe is more complex than its modern counterpart and that complexity is difficult to reproduce accurately.
Complex harmonics challenge every aspect of a system but none more so than a TT, which can so easily generate distortions in the time domain. Even if a TT maintains perfect average speed, variations lasting mere thousandths of a second (which fall below the resolution of strobe discs, laser pointers and such) will distort complex harmonics enough to drive sensitive listeners out of the room.
Original instrument recordings sound ghastly in many systems. Some listeners just blame the recording and move on, happily unaware of just how weak their systems actually are. Great job persevering, glad you found a way to enjoy Mr. Haydn.
|
Hi Doug, for the past few months I am desperately looking to upgrade the drive system of my Verdier. It was originally supplied with a silk thread which was okay but a friend of mine suggested I try 1/4 inch reel to reel tape. The tape immediately gave me the immediacy and dynamics that was somewhat lacking with the thread but the tape also increased the noise floor and reduced instrument seperation, also took away some of the body from the instruments. So, I had to go back to the thread. However it gave me the confidence that the thing to improve with the Verdier is the drive system. I would like to try out your recipe but I dont know where to source the silver holographic mylar tape from. I am at Singapore. I will be really grateful if you could share your email ID with me or drop me a test mail at dr.basss@gmail.com so that I could take some guidance from you to settle my TT drive system. |
>>The timbre of a Baroque oboe is more complex than its modern counterpart and that complexity is difficult to reproduce accurately.<<
I wholeheartedly concur about the challenges in reproducing complex harmonics and the importance of proper platter speed yet remain doubtful about the above claim. Yes, between Baroque and modern oboes there are different woods, different keys, different reed constructions, different impositions on the musician, consistency of instrument construction, etc. etc. yet timeline would seem to have little impact on musician's note bending abilities. Doesn't the modern instrument also have a broader range? Not being an oboist I cannot speak with authority, but having sat next to enough of them I've heard no lack of harmonic complexity from modern instruments, live or recorded. Nonetheless, your point is quite make-able without the appeal to specific musical preferences. A system that sounds ghastly on hip is likely as ghastly on (heaven forfend) hip-hop. Cheers. |
Hi Pani,
R2R tape provides a less elastic, less slippage-prone coupling than silk thread. The drive belt described in this thread simply goes further in that same direction... much further. Therefore, whatever you heard from R2R tape you'd hear even more of with the modded holo belt... much more.
Your experiment provided data. Let's think about what you learned and its implications. Improving your motor-platter linkage raised the noise floor. Ask yourself, where did this additional noise come from? The overwhelming likelihood is that it comes from the motor and that the improved coupling provided by the R2R tape transferred more of it into the platter (which is a good drive belt's job).
All motors are noise sources and I'm afraid yours is suspect. I've read reports over the years of PV owners who improved their motors and heard a major improvement. The unfortunate but inescapable conclusion is that PV uses silk thread because a slippy (or elastic) coupling helps isolate the platter from a noisy motor.
Your experiment certainly seems to confirm this. IMO it's likely that upgrading your motor will be necessary before you can enjoy the sonic benefits of a tighter motor-platter coupling without experiencing additional noise.
* As noted in my OP, sources for the holo tape can be found on the Teres and Galibier websites. I don't know of any others.
***
Tim,
Have you also sat next to baroque oboists? My distinction was meant only as a comparison between modern and baroque instruments. If you've only sat next to one type or the other then any observations would be in a vacuum and would neither affirm nor contradict the comparison.
For clarity, I didn't intend to suggest that a modern oboe lacks harmonics. Sorry if I was unclear. To my ears, more of its energy focuses on the fundamental COMPARED to a baroque oboe, which has a different balance between fundamental and overtones - one that favors the latter. Neither is better or worse, they were designed for different situations and respond accordingly.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the ability of different genres to reveal system characteristics, at least at the margins. I agree that a system which can reproduce very difficult acoustic music really well will do the same for (say) hip-hop, provided one is willing to tolerate any flaws and artifacts in the recording being revealed for what they are. The converse is not true. I've heard hundreds of systems that hip and hop really well but sound ghastly when asked to reproduce challenging acoustic instruments.
When the source music has been sent through dozens of electronic steps which distort the signal *by design*, a little playback distortion may go unnoticed. OTOH, when the source music has been sent through the minimally necessary electronic steps and each of those was chosen to distort the signal *as little as possible*, playback distortions are more likely to be audible... at least to my hip- and hop-less ears.
I have some LPs featuring solo counter-tenor and alto recorder performing in the hardest stone space imaginable. These records bring 99% of all systems to their knees. People literally leave the room holding their ears because it can sound like fingernails-on-slate. It's not the records' fault however, it's the inability of multiple components throughout the playback chain to cope with densely packed, high amplitude harmonics. I've heard these LPs produced "almost" right just once or twice. No recording of mixed, manipulated and amplified music is anywhere near so demanding.
|
Doug, Can you recommend a high quality motor/controller that is up to the task of the mylar-tape drive system? |
>>For clarity, I didn't intend to suggest that a modern oboe lacks harmonics. Sorry if I was unclear. To my ears, more of its energy focuses on the fundamental COMPARED to a baroque oboe, which has a different balance between fundamental and overtones - one that favors the latter.<<
So a guy with perfect pitch beams out of the future and walks into the Zimmerman cafe and asks the oboist: "what the heck are you playing?". Maybe that's why they started writing down the notes. (small humor)
As a physical object any individual instrument, regardless of historical period, will show differences in harmonics to some degree from other instruments. Given that, presumably both modern and baroque oboes can each be tune with one another. I had in mind that the largest determiner of the relative harmonic complexity thrown off for any given note was the performer rather than the instrument and that a modern oboe and oboist are no less capable of such than ones from some other period.
>>I have some LPs featuring solo counter-tenor and alto recorder performing in the hardest stone space imaginable. These records bring 99% of all systems to their knees.<<
Every good boy does fine and every good system loves a test. Would you kindly share a title or catalog number for a few of these? Thanks.
|
Tim,
I just noticed the question at the end of your last post. The LP I described above (which Paul calls my "la-dee-dah record") is this one:
‘Les Plaisirs de la Renaissance’ (Harmonia Mundi, HMU 963)
There are many such recordings on the (French) Harmonia Mundi label. Arthur Salvatore's LP lists include many such in the Early Music catagory. We get ours from ebay, including some from European ebay sites/sellers. Prices are usually low (not a big market) and vinyl condition is usually perfect or nearly so.
|
Hi Doug!!
This Thread is invaluable. I hope you are still going to read this even though its an old thread. I used a single Mylar belt that Chris Brady sent to me 10 years ago until now! How crazy is that? I think its time for a new belt since my Teres 255 won't keep good timing and the motor is hunting for the proper speed on occasion. Only thing is, I can't for the life of me locate 1/2" Mylar streamers / tape...all the old links to buy this product has expired and Google brings up everything but the proper product. any advice on that? is there a place where i could buy ready "belts"? Best regards and thanks for this great informative thread. |
Try here:
http://fjminc.com/store/tapes-and-streamers/holographic-tape/
You might want to try cleaning the circumference of the platter as well as the belt itself. For the platter, distilled water with a microfiber cloth works well; for the belt, I use 95% isopropyl alcohol. Allow both to dry thoroughly. You'll get copious amounts of residue from both, especially if the pulley is brass which tends to shed material slowly over time. |
I just stumbled upon this thread last week after a bit of a hiatus from audio. I made a new etched belt this past weekend, cleaned platter and motor pulley with alcohol wipes and played around a bit with belt tension to find the highest speed.
The improvement this has made just blows me away, as others have said the detail and dynamics are greatly improved along with the pace and rhythm.
Huge thanks to Doug and Paul for discovering and sharing this tweak. |
Dave4u and Andirocks,
Just noticed your posts. Glad this tweak works well for you, as it does for most everyone who's tried it. Enjoy!
... and a belated thanks to Richard (Palasr) for posting that new source for holographic mylar tape.
|
Doug and Paul
Great post
Just thought I'd mention that Thom Mackris has refined the Galibier system. The motor pod has been refined and it now uses a cloth belt. Incredible performance |
Tom,
I've read about Thom's upgrades (I'm actually on his mailing list, lol). I know he worked hard to find a better belt material. It sounds like he succeeded, which is great!
Glad to see (at least) one of the three original Teres experiment spinoffs is still improving the product and making a go of it.
|
Doug
Thom is always striving to refine things. what a great guy.
Thom built a new arm board mount also this last year. He wanted me to take each upgrade separately to see what it was contributing sonically. The new board made the sound more focused and cut the noise floor on the tone arm down dramatically. wow. Each of the original three have done some great things and I thank this forum for leading me to the Galibier 7 years ago |
hi guys!
i got some holographic mylar from fjminc.com but it has one side of adhesive :( did i get the wrong one? i can't find proper mylar!!! please help! my "belt" has a million miles on it and already looks nasty and about to tear.. |
It appears that finding Mylar belts has become increasingly difficult. I've been using a spliceless Kapton belt (2 mil thickness, 1/2" width, 45" circumference). IMO, much better than a spliced Mylar belt - Kapton is utilized as the drive belt in flight data recorders. Thom Mackris at Galibier has posted a list of suppliers on his website:
http://www.galibierdesign.com/supt_belts.html
While slightly pricey (around $50 each), they will last a very long time. Good luck! |
Dave4u,
You don't want adhesive on either side of a TT belt.
Palasr,
Thanks for posting that link. I have an ample supply of mylar and splicing tape so have yet to try one of Thom's made-up Kapton belts. Other than convenience, can you expand on how it is better? |
Palasr, I just noticed that you have sent me a private message. You are very kind! thanks very much for the offer!
Can you share which supplier you used for your kapton belt? is it one of the three on http://www.galibierdesign.com ? I think that's the right way to go for me... 50 is a bit pricey but it solves me a headache so no brainer :) |
Doug,
I think the Kapton belts run truer around the pulley, resulting in better overall speed stability. In general, any splice will result in some small runout error causing the belt to slightly oscillate up and down the face of the pulley - the Kapton belts solve this nicely. And while I don't have a table in front of me with various moduli of elasticity, I think Kapton is more rigid than Mylar resulting in tighter coupling, less stretch, less loss. Also, remember that we use totally different controller architectures, as well as pulleys, so YMMV. Finally, they couldn't make spliceless Mylar belts, or I would have compared both materials.
Dave4u,
Since I'm the one who began exploring the Kapton alternative, I used this company: Blue Lake Products (http://www.bluelakeproducts.com/). While I haven't done any follow up business with them, I also don't know why Thom didn't include them in his list, however knowing Thom, I'm certain he vetted all the suppliers in his list. You can certainly give him a call and ask. |
