Ugraditus is calling....again. Phono stage?

Very happy with the gold note so far, may have gone with one of the earlier suggestions and possibly have been dissapointed if not for Al and his impedance matching observations.

@analogluvr, thank you kindly for the very nice words.

BTW, your comments about the Herron phono stage in past threads were prominent among those which led me to become yet another very happy owner of a VTPH-2 a couple of years ago.  Thanks for that as well!

Best regards,
-- Al
 

The Herron VTPH-2 certainly sounds like a great stage and along with Keith Herrons very honest upfront attitude even though it cost him a potential sale, if I ever changed my amp to something that had an impedance match I would consider the VTPH-2 very deeply.
Thank you all!

uberwaltz is there anything that you dont like about the goldnote? I'm waiting for my unit to ship.

@rsf507 

At this stage I have zero complaints.
I just love the total flexibility of being able to change settings like gain and loading etc right from front panel.
This makes for easy instantaneous comparison and much nicer than opening up and moving jumpers etc.
It is extremely well built, almost a work of art to boot.
Nice touch is outputs on both xlr and RCA.
Also two sets of inputs so you could set up for 2 different cartridge and only have to flip from input 1 to 2.

A lot to like so far!

Oh...and it sounds pretty darn sweet too. Lol

Now all I need do is find a buyer for the Dynavector P75, which is a darn fine phono stage but not in the Gold Note league.

Al I've been contemplating getting the ART nine and I've been wondering what you think of it? I've been running a lyra helicon  and I absolutely love it but I'm not sure how many hours it has on it. 
 Sorry for the brief off-topic, sounds like the OP is really enjoying his phonostage so that's great! 

No problem Analogluvr
I too have been thinking about the art9 so would welcome any comments on it right here

@analogluvr & @uberwaltz,

Like many others here I’ve been delighted with the ART9. Among its many excellent qualities I would say that the one which stands out the most is simply its neutrality, meaning that it doesn’t seem to overemphasize or underemphasize any part of the spectrum. Dynamics and resolution of detail are also excellent.

To provide context, for the better part of the previous 30+ years I was using various incarnations of the Grace F-9E and F-9E Ruby. Most recently an F-9 with Soundsmith’s $350 "Ruby Cantilever / Nude Contact Line Diamond" stylus/cantilever assembly. Which is a very nice cartridge, but I found it to be not quite as accurate or dynamic as the ART9.

My tonearm is a 1980’s Magnepan Unitrac I, which has a relatively low effective mass of 8 grams. The ART9 has a highish compliance, specified as 18 × 10-6 cm/dyne at 100Hz, which I suspect probably means something like 30 x 10-6 cm/dyne at the 10 Hz frequency that compliance specs provided by non-Japanese cartridge manufacturers are usually based on.

I see that the Lyra Helikon is spec’d at 12 x 10-6 cm/dyne at 100Hz, and has a weight that is very similar to the ART9. Given that as well as the fact that several members here have reported excellent results using the ART9 in medium mass arms I doubt that there would be any compatibility issues using the ART9 in an arm that is suitable for use with the Helikon.

I’m uncertain about compatibility in Uberwaltz’s case, though, as I’m not familiar with his arm and the compliance of his Shelter cartridge appears to be somewhat lower, at 9 x 10-6 cm/dyne, presumably at 100 Hz since it is made in Japan. Although it’s weight is again very similar to the weight of the ART9.

Best regards,
-- Al

Thanks Al for a very informative post as per usual
So in my case I may be taking a bit of a chance, my Spacedeck has a stock Spacearm ( as far as I know at least), do not think it will be anything special.
However at $860 new on eBay the ART9 is not what you would call high priced so it might be worth a try.

 Thanks Al. My go to arms are a 12 inch well tempered which has exceeded my expectations and an eminent technology ii. I suspected to have better luck with the well tempered. I also have an SME series 3 but that maybe too light? 

I also have an SME series 3 but that maybe too light?

@analogluvr, on paper a reasonable case could be made both for and against that combination, IMO, so it may very well be worth trying the ART9 in the SME III.

A case that could be made for it would be that if the ART9’s compliance at 10 Hz is in fact in the rough vicinity of 30 the 5 gram effective mass of the SME III (according to its listing at vinylengine.com), together with the 8.5 gram weight of the cartridge, would result in a resonant frequency of about 7.9 Hz. While an arm having higher effective mass would result in a resonant frequency somewhat lower than that, and therefore further from the 8 to 12 Hz region that is generally considered to be optimal.

A case that could be made against it would be that many people have reported great results with the ART9 when used in medium mass arms.

In any event, best of luck if you decide to purchase one.

Best regards,
-- Al

What would be the real world difference between art9 and art7?
Art7 is a lot lower output at just 0.12mv.

What real benefit could one expect from that over the art9 ?

Please bear in mind I am no mc cartridge expert only experience is the shelter 501 that came with my tt.

Hi Uberwaltz,

By just about all accounts that I've seen the ART7, like the ART9, is an excellent cartridge.  However, its very low output will definitely be a problem for many phono stages, in terms of noise.  Specifically, its rated output of 0.12 mv is about 10.5 db less than the 0.4 mv rated output of your Shelter cartridge.

I don't know how the volume control on your 2170 is calibrated, but presuming it adjusts volume in discrete steps, and if you can determine how many db each step corresponds to (perhaps by contacting Lyngdorf) I would suggest the following experiment:  Set the gain on the PH-10 to max (65 + 6 = 71 db).  Listen to some music, preferably something that has wide dynamic range, and turn up the volume control to the loudest setting you would normally use.  Then stop playing the record, increase that volume setting by about 11 db, and see if the hiss level becomes bothersome.

It might also be worthwhile to perform the same experiment at 65 and/or 68 db settings of the overall gain.

Also, the following post by Pani dated 2-27-2015 in one of the major ART9 threads will be of interest: 

Dgarretson, I have not heard the ART7 so I cannot comment on its sound per se. Its heartening to know that it can be amplified without SUT. Here is an email that was sent to a friend of mine by Audio Technica:

Mr. Rodrigo Thomaz from Audio Technica send me follow reply to this question:

Hello,

If you prefer to listen to multiple orchestrate classical music, we recommend the Non-magnetic Core Moving Coil cartridge  AT-ART7. It can reproduce more sensitive sound of each instrument.

However if you prefer more dynamic music like jazz/pop music, we recommend you use the Magnetic Core Moving Coil cartridge AT-ART9. It will deliver much more presence with rich low mid frequencies.

Hope this can help. Kind Regards, Rodrigo Thomaz

Best regards,
-- Al

Thank you Al
For my tastes in music I truly think the art9 would be a better fit regardless after reading that reply from AT.

However that is a very useful test to see if at any future stage I could contemplate a true lomc in my present system and will perform it to satisfy my curiosity and increase my depth of knowledge on what is and what is not possible for me.

P.S: Although I doubt it would happen, it’s possible that running your Shelter cartridge with the PH-10’s gain set to 71 db might result in distortion on musical peaks, due to an overload condition in either its circuitry or in the circuitry in the 2170 that precedes its volume control mechanism. If that were to happen, though, the resulting distortion should be pretty obvious, and would be present even at relatively low settings of the volume control. As I said I doubt that would occur, but if it does you could perform the experiment just with the 65 and/or 68 db settings instead.

Best regards,
-- Al

May just put a new cartridge on hold for a while.
Just added a SR Blue fuse to the Gold Note and I definitely can hear a sq improvement, very tight and more focused.
Actually very very enjoyable so I am not in the mood to upset the apple cart right now.
I know there are a lot of fuse haters and doubters out there but I am not one of them!

Uberwaltz,

I’m with you on fuses. If the listener can hear a difference/improvement - that’s all that matters.

Still waiting for the PSU to be released, I will definitely purchase one when available.

Happy to hear you're enjoying the PH-10 too!

Robert
I was truly so enthralled by the SQ last night I was flipping vinyl until 1.30am...lol.

Another nice aspect of the lyngdorf 2170 and the goldnote, nottingham combo is I can reduce my listening level for these very late night sessions and not really lose anything much at all in dynamics or details.
Definitely not something that has always been the case with prior incarnations of gear in my setup.

Still pondering on a change of cartridge just because!

Looking at the ART9, various ZYX models and a Transfiguration Axia.

Choices, choices!

Uberwaltz,

About a week ago I installed the back-up to my back-up cart, an Ortofon 2M Bronze -- I fricken love it! I probably only have 50 hours tops on it, but the sound is so lush, detailed, & inviting! Dead quiet too. It’s staying on for the time being..

For reference, my main cart is a Sound Smith modded Ortofon Kontrapunkt B (Boron Cant, Ruby Fine Line) and the back-up is a Clearaudio Maestro V2. These are fantastic as well, but different sound signatures.

I’m always fidgeting with my system, but I love to have choices. When my mood changes, the cart changes.

Have you thought about trying a couple out, that are less expensive? You may be surprised how many great options there are without emptying your pocket. I really love Ortofon as you can tell, and I’ve had two Clearaudio MM, the other being a Virtuoso, very nice sound. I’ve had both Dynavector 10x5 and 20x2h. Equally impressive.

Received my Gold note PH10 this week and a bit hard and closed in sounding initially but now after 15 plus hours it's really opening up and singing. For $1300 it's well worth every cent IMO

Have faith, its gets better and better with 50 plus hours on it.
Also you may want to consider trying an aftermarket fuse and power cord, both made noticeable improvements to my ears.
Good luck and enjoy

Robert
I had a Clearaudio tt with a Clearaudio cart ( do not remember which the cart was about $550). I remember not being too impressed at the time.
However a lot of changes in my system since then.
I see you can get the Ortofon 2m Bronze for like $380 shipped on eBay, not a lot of cash for a trial for sure.

Uberwaltz,

Have you heard anything new regarding the PSU for the PH-10?

Last I heard from Toska, was end of April.

Best,
Robert

Robert
Nothing as yet
He did say would email me when in stock but may have to remind him...

Uberwaltz,

Just wanted to give you a quick update:  The Lyngdorf is gone, and now I'm using a MicroMega M100.  No more A/D conversion for my analog device, which is of course the PH-10.

I had a minor WOW moment right off the bat playing vinyl.  I always had concerns playing records through the 2170, even though this last time with the 2170 was very, very good.  But...now without any digital in the path, and switching from Class D to A/B in the amp, I've hit the sweet spot with the PH-10.  Everything sounds so alive and exciting.

I've tried to find the input specs for the M100's line/balanced inputs to see if they're a better match with the PH-10, but nothing yet..

I almost thought about selling the PH-10 too, because the M100 has it's own phono stage, but a quick A/B test, made the PH-10 the clear winner.  This preamp still amazes me.

Sounds good Robert
I am sure there are much better amps out than the 2170 but the wonders it revealed in my terrible acoustic room means it stays...for now...lol.

What I have done is buy two carts, ebay had 15% off today so used my account to buy one and the wifes to buy the second, $180 saved total.

ART-9 and ZYX RS30

Both coming from outside the usa so have a couple weeks to wait before I can so some serious comparao testing

Uberwaltz,

Very cool.  The Art 9 is on a lot of people's radar, mine included.  Should mate well with my Technics from what I hear, and I know you'll keep us updated on how it works with the PH-10.

It's next on my list of carts to try.

Best,
Robert

uberwaltz you were right the PH10 has taken another leap forward in resolution and musicality after 70 hrs of use. Just love this phono stage.

rsf507

Glad to hear it, it should just keep getting better!
Now take a leap of faith and try and aftermarket fuse in it too, there is even more to be had!

Uberwaltz - I also have the PH-10 and absolutely love it. I'm running mine with a Gold Note Mediterraneo with GN Donatello Gold, which is an amazing combo, BTW. I cannot get over how good this combination is. 

Your replacing the fuse intrigues me as I found that replacing the fuse in my PS Audio Directstream DAC significantly improved SQ. I initially replaced with SR Red, which I really likes, and then the Audio Magic Beeswax SHD fuse, which was even better and more liquid in it's sound. Many guys on the PS Audio site swear by the AM Beeswax fuses, for what it's worth. What made you try the SR Blue? Have you tried other fuses at all? Thanks!
Adam

Amgradmd
Nice to hear from fellow ph10 owners.
As far as the fuse I went with Sr blue because I had previously used SR black in a DAC with excellent results.
And the sr blue thread has very positive reviews on this fuse.
I can only concur and it is a superb improvement for just $150.

Thanks uberwaltz! I appreciate the into. Can I confirm that the fuse is the small 5x20mm slow (t) 1.6A fuse? 

No problem
And yes that is correct on fuse size

Toska just informed me that the PSU will not be available until after the Munich audio show, so they're thinking June 1st.

Price confirmed: $1,100.00, but if you bought your PH-10 through them, $100 off.

Now we keep waiting.

Well the ZYX RS30 showed up today so of course I had to fit it right away!
First thoughts, thank heaven for the ph10! Needed to scroll through various setting to get the sound as I preferred it, not something easily done when you have to keep opening a box up and moving jumpers around!.
So first impression of the cartridge.
Quite a bit brighter and detailed than the Shelter. So far I like it with 0db gain( it is 0.24mv) and loading of 470 and the America Columbia curve.But this may change as it breaks in and I cycle through a few more albums.

Uber,

Congrats on the new cart.  That is always fun and exciting, but the burning in part, not so much.

Do you have an ETA on the Art-9?

The ART is coming from Germany, it is in transit but that is all the tracking says.

Rookie mistake on the zyx yesterday.
Set the alignment, set the vtf and dropped the needle to play as excited.
Doh, did not set the vta! And the zyx is a lot shallower cart than the Shelter so needed a lot of change.
Then it sounded much better, nowhere near as bright as previous and a lot more tonal midrange really noticeable on male vocals and acoustic guitar.
Same settings on ph10 apart from curve to riaa now.

My PH-10 always stays on RIAA curve.  I don't think I own any records that are more than 20 years old, so no need (yet) to make curve adjustments.

I do have a number of 60,s and 70,s records and some of them need help....lol.
Tbh the America Columbia curve tames the brightness and harsnhess a fair bit.
Which is why the zyx sounded better but ONLY because the vta was way to steep.
Once this was corrected riaa regular sounded the best.
Certainly glad to have the flexibility of the ph10 and think it was a very good choice for my new phono stage.
All those changes in seconds with immediate confirmation from listening not 10 minutes memory.

PH-10 owners:

Do you ever turn your PH-10 off?  

I don't think I've turned mine off for at least three weeks, even though there has been a day or two during that span that I did not use it. 

Definitely sounds better after it's been on a few hours, but I'm curious if any of you believe it's good to give it a rest every now and again?

I do usually have the display turned off, as I do with all my components.  The PH-10's screen does get quite bright, and I feel I'm at the least saving some power, but can say there's any SQ improvement with it on or off.

I look forward to reading your opinions.

Robert

Robelvick

Have never turned mine off since buying it, apart from when I moved stuff round on the racks
Do not even turn the display off.
I also usually leave the 2170 on as well so it is instant high quality music

Don’t turn my PH10 off except every 7-10 days will shut down for 2-3 hrs then turn back on. I think it helps break-in better this based on how I’ve done other gear over the years. I’m also experimenting with AC cords my dealer is loaning me to try, yes they are making a nice improvement in SQ more to come.

Robert
Are you still using the balanced outs from the PH-10 to feed the Micromega?
I did try the balanced vs the single ended into the 2170 and tbh preferred the sound of the single ended.
Just curious

Uberwaltz,

I have tried singled ended with both the 2170 & Micromega, but prefer balanced outs feeding both.

The S/N ratio on the Micromega’s balanced inputs are about +3db quieter than the singled ended inputs, and the extra gain using balanced outputs allows me to set the PH-10 at -3db gain which has a much quieter noise floor. Using singled ended outputs, I have to set the PH-10 to 0db or +3db to get the same dynamics, but can’t stand the extra noise that goes with it.

The balanced combo has sounded the best everytime, no matter which cart I’m using.

Interesting.
I did a back to back on both and it was not noise floor or dynamics that were the issue.
The xlr just gave me a very bright brittle sound with loss of mid and bass. Very tipped up at the top. no manner of adjustment cured that at all.
I ran xlr at -3db and rca at present 0db.

Matched db levels with the 2170 input sensitivity but to no avail. Just sounded horrible on xlr in my system.
Very odd.
I wonder if I am missing something in 2170 setup as my OPPO was the same results although much more pronounced on the ph10
You do not have to change anything on the ph10 for the balanced output do you?

I have considered the possibility of something being wrong using balanced but this would mean 1 of 3 things.

1/ Goldnote wired their xlr plugs incorrectly direct at factory.
2/ Lyngdorf wired their xlr plugs incorrectly direct at factory.
3/ Wireworld wired their cables incorrectly direct at factory.

None of those seem likely but who knows and short of opening things up I am not sure how you can easily test for mistakes like that and how to nail down which would be the culprit if this is the case.

Could possibly be the cables being used.

@auxinput made the pair I've been using for the past 9 months, between a few different phono stages/DAC.   DH Lab BL-Ag with Furutech gold XLR connections.  They have always sounded superb in every integration.

What balanced cables did you try?