I have been living extremely happy with my TW Raven 2 TT for over 6 years. For me, this is a "go to the grave" piece of audio gear. Love it. Then I started some upgrades:
TW AC Motor Controller - It should make a difference, but it is huge. It should be standard.
Next was the TW Raven 10.5 arm - Had a great arm. TW's arm is stellar! My only fear s this is TW's first arm, I know he is going to figure out away to take the Raven to a Black Knight level.
Last was the TW Mat- My general thought on mats is why? I don't want to say I was forced to buy this mat, but I was! $500...Really? How many record could I get for $500? The thought was that when it arrived I would play some favorite albums with and without the TW mat and go back and forth. Then call Jeff and send the Mat back.
I listened to the group of albums without the mat. Then with the mat. Then I was supposed to go back and listen again without the mat...THE TW MAT WAS NEVER LEFT MY TT PLATTER! I am just not going back without it. I did make the call to Jeff at High Water Sound to tell him he was right...again!
For me, the mat helps to better create a live performance in my home. Love the way the TW mat connects the vinyl to the mat and the platter.
What don't I like about it? Dust likes it too! I am not quite ready to turn my listening room into a "clean room" but I have thought about it.
If you are shopping for mats go for this one. |
Genesis168, Have you got your mat set up yet? |
I've had one on my Raven One for a few weeks now. Really like what I hear, bit frustrating as it forced me through adjusting my XV-1s settings again. At first it was a shift in sound, darker richer but after adjusting my settings it was like a preamp upgrade, lower noise floor, more relaxed, blacker backgrounds, richer tones, same level of detail just presented more naturally. I figured it made sense because in theory the Raven One is the most compromised TT in the TW lineup so it potentially had the most to gain. The improvements are not subjective and are noticeable across even every record I have spun. |
I have a Raven one and I have one on order. I will post my findings as soon as I get the mat in my table. From feedback here I believe this mat will take things to the next level. |
Are there any Raven One users tried this matt? |
i have used a matt for 3 weeks and tried with both an ortofon per winfeld as well as a lyra skala and can report significant improvement in background silence,image stability and a small improvement in clarity across the frequency spectrumÂ…this is a worthwhile improvement to my ac-3 tw t/table |
I actually did it both ways for a trial. I stayed with the arm about 4mm on the set recommendation of 4-6mm and just used the VTA. The thickness of the matt is about 5 mm, so you have to elevate the VTA quite a bit to get the VTA/SRA back to where you want it. It's worth the trouble though! |
Thanks Philb7777
I am not using the millennium mat just the bare platter. Curious did you have to reset the arm or did you just use the VTA adjuster? |
Musichead, I have an XV-1s, TW 10.5 arm and a Raven AC. I my opinion, compared to the stock Millenium mat, the TW mat added a sense of ease and flow to the music, made the sound more musical without sacrificing detail, and added more bass impact. With the TW mat thickness, adjusting VTA and anti-skate was a must. All in all, I am very happy with the TW mat as an upgrade compared to the Millenium mat. |
Has anyone heard the mat with a Raven One? How does the mat impact the sound? I use the 10.5 arm and XV1s. |
Thuchan
Danke
Will do cheers
Pradeep |
Sunnyboy1956
oh, maybe I missed. pls. send again! |
Thuchan
Sent you a mail on the Wavacs many moons ago.
Apologies to the OP for digressing |
The appropriate mat can make a difference - to the good side. Don't forget to fix the mat on the platter as a kind of hard coupling. never leave it loose on the turntable - you will not hear an integrated system but two components. Don't use holy water for fixing... |
Syntax
TW told me retired Pope Benedict did him a favour and blessed a bunch of the mats for him. So no need to have to get any audiophile approved Holy Water. |
TW is wonderful the mat makes it even better. |
Syntax, your comments sometimes are not called for on these boards. We all
have things we like and value in regards to not only sound, but equipment.
Much of it is based on opinions and sonic preferences.
For one, the TW-mat made a significant difference in sound. At first I wasn't sure
I liked it as it made my bass so robust that it thickened the sound. I this was
even after I reset the VTA to a comparable level from which the millennium mat
was set. Only after experimenting: lowering the VTF from 1.950 to 1.925g, and
decreasing the anti skate by around 30% from previous settings, did I find a
sound that was much improved over the Millennium mat.
The take home message is that the TW-mat definitely changes the sound
dramatically, and only when you re-calibrate your table do you find the sound
much improved over the Millennium (and yes, I did go back and use less anti-
skate and VTF with the Millennium prior to making these observations).
In closing, my non-solicited advice to you is be more open minded and objective
upon this hobby and what other people may see as improvements and quality
equipment. I think your system based on Micro-Seiki, Lamm and your custom
home-made loudspeakers are really cool and top notch. Not my cup of tea, but I
can certainly see why you would use it as a reference for yourself. |
Dip the mat into Holy Water...that is a cheap but tremendous upgrade...so much more controlled in the high frequency area with an endless soundstage ... Great Upgrade in Sound !! |
I agree 100% great upgrade in sound!! |
Mat Update:
After more than a week with the mat, I must say it definitely is a success and worth the investment. Depth and width of soundstage have improved. More rock solid imaging well beyond the speaker boundaries is occuring. Musicality has improved. Bass is definitely more robust.
If you have a TW table, the TW mat is definitely worth investigating. |
My TW Acustic mat arrived yesterday. Here is the info so far:
1. Mat is around 5mm thick and one must adjust VTA accordingly
2. Improvements: lower noise floor, less static, more air, more detail
3. Things that may have not improved or worsened: dynamics, PRAT
Not sure on complete decision as I have only quickly 'ball parked' the VTA adjustment. I will fine tune VTA as I had on the Millennium Mat and report back in about a week. So far, I like the improvements and I am betting that the dynamics and PRAT improve as I dial in VTA and VTF. |
You're most welcome Suteetat :)
Downunder...if I had a BN platter I probably wouldn't soil it with a mat either :) ;)
Milimetr...Experimenters place a lot of reliance on the mechanical impedance of vinyl/acryl mats being ideal but that doesn't mean the average listener will even like them. :)
FWIW, my personal preference, the Ringmat, effectively addresses your concerns about platter & LP veneer damage) :
The hybrid Ringmat not only offers good adhesion, grip & platter(rather than vinyl) damping i.e. if required on a metal surface, via the heavy, thin, latex Base Mat but virtually eliminates the risk of vinyl damage due to sharp dust or particulates (e.g. statically charged loose core from the spindle hole drilling) which is another benefit of the RingmatÂ’s decoupled nature.
Ringmats, whether 330XLR or "Gold Spot", seem to be uniformly successful with any platter – glass, metal, or plastic (although non-ringing split platters like the LP12 are quite happy without any underlay but it might help adhesion) and it renders clamps & weights redundant.
Please note, the Ringmat was intended to be used with the Latex underlay, with or without the remainder of the VTA adjustment system. Most Ringmat owners seem to be using the Ringmat on its own (I know I did onceÂ…) and are not getting the full benefit. The Latex Base Mat is comparatively cheap but offers more than an incremental performance increase.
Changes like this are so fundamental to the behaviour of your turntable that 20 quid for a Latex Base Mat could turn out to be money well spent while $500 could be the biggest risk ever undertaken, unless the Distributor is offering a free-trial? |
I have tried an original rubber mat from old Pioneer turntable, but results were unimpressive.
Quite interesting results and easy to check I got when I placed a second winyl record under the played one.
This brings me to idea of trying Clearaudio Harmonicer mat, which is not very expensive and made of winyl. |
Hmmm
I own the Raven AC-3 with BN platter. I currently use without any mat as it sounds better.
I have tried Boston audio mat - deadens the sound, so I guess OK if your system is bright.
Millennium mat that came with table - OK but seems slightly diffuse/blur detail in certain frequencies.
Living Voice mat - best of the 3 and pretty close to no mat.
Furutech record weight used depending on recording being played.
Interesting that rubber compound is used for the new Zanden/TW mat. Back to the 70's and DD tables and rubber mats.
I have yet to find a mat that betters the rubber mat that cane with my Pioneer Exclusive P3 as it adds life and drive into the music.
Perhaps I should try my two spare Technics rubber mats - thin and thick on the TW platter? |
Suteetat
The description from the TW site states this
Yamada-san of Zanden Audio, Japan, has developed a 5 mm thick compound mat for us, and it has totally won us over. The mat consists of two different layers of rubber. The harder of the two compounds sits directly on the turntableÂ’s platter. The softer upper surface generates adhesion and thereby creates a perfect connection between record and turntable. The incomparable dynamics that distinguish our turntable from the rest remain fully unnrestricted, but the musical reproduction appears clamer and more composed because there is now no perceptible pickup noise at all. In addition, the mat lends the music an aura of silkiness and exclusive musicality.
So from the above descrition it is a one sided mat, but dual density with the soft layer intended to face up.
Right now I am using my TW with out a mat. I only have experience with the Millenium mat. But I will eventually get the new TW/Zanden mat one of these days. |
Moonglum, thanks for the description. I saw the picture of TW/Zanden mat and it has a different colour but otherwise I can't tell if there is any other difference. However, the Zanden mat that I tried had only the soft rubbery material single layer so it sounds like it is different from TW/Zanden with dual layer soft/hard side. |
Hi Ebm....
No offense, the AC mat recommendation was merely the view of my local TW supplier. ;)
The "official" position seems to be Raven AC with mat, and R1 withOUT mat, although, in the beginning, I seem to remember the R1 was supplied with a Millenium Mat until it was rationalised away.
Perversely, I use my R1 with a mat (but not the Millenium because I bought my TT after TW stopped supplying mats) while plenty of folk seem to prefer their AC without one! ;)
Ah well...if it makes us happy.... :)
Functionally, the Zanden has more in common with the Millenium mat (dual layer, hard side-soft side) than it does with the Achromat (hard outer shell, cellular interior)
Kind regards, |
TW is to be used with or without a mat depends on the owners system and preferences. |
There is no comparison between missile design and a turntable. A missile's ultimate aim is to travel along certain vectors hit the target then explode. It's fairly easy to know whether you've failed or not. :)
Neither is a missile sensitive to the minutest mechanical vibration.
Turntables, indeed any pieces of hifi equipment, are subject to human perception and we could write a book on that subject and still not hit the target. ;)
The variance of a turntable's physical situation coupled with the relative effects of feedback and the variability of ancillaries in combination, not to mention the adjustability of each, means that the mechanical behaviour of the system is far from clear cut. It can vary and may require tuning/optimisation, even though one is buying a series of finished products.
This is the nature of turntables and it has always been this way. Go on any Forum and you will see countless threads aimed at extracting the best from any turntable.
True some manufacturers try to remove uncertainty by incorporating the tonearm and even the cartridge but optimisation of that turntable's situation still applies. I've had variable results with "complete" suspended tables (e.g. Linn) depending on floor construction, what platform was used, how the cables were dressed and what mat was used.
(..and we're not even touching on arm damping or all the regular adjustment parameters.)
Because it is a sensitive mechanical system there is no limit to influences that can affect it so any extra effort is always worthwhile.
I don't own a Raven AC but my understanding is that it was designed to be used with a mat, and an appropriate mat is supplied.
Many turntable designs other than TW-Acustic also incorporate the mat.
Are detractors attacking TW-Acustic or the engineering qualifications of customers who use mats in general? |
TW is one of the best selling turntables in the world because it sounds so good and can be upgraded in the field.Mr Yamada of Zanden has a TW table and loves it. |
Suteetat - I agree with you completely. Always objective with a reasonable view considering all variables. Well said my friend.
Milimetr- I agree too. I've yet to hear an aluminum platter I have liked - my personal preference based on my ears only. |
I think TW platter is not flawed - especially soundwise.
For many of the users TW sounds best without any mat.
I am using mat for protection only and trying to find the mat that do not making TW platter sounds worse. So far TW mat is very good doing this.
What material in your opinion guys should be used in platter? I heard aluminium platter in Acustic Solid TT and it ringed as a bell. Switching to TW was a clear improvement. |
Material science certainly has a use in audio and I think TW spent significant amount of time in material research to come up with their platter. However, if a particular mat sounds good on TW, is it only the flaw of the turntable that demands the use of a mat. Could the mat be correcting the sonic problem of the cartridge, tonearm or equipment downstream?
We already have various opinions from many owners on TW, no mat, mat a or b, heavy center weight, no center weight, light center weight etc etc work best in their particular system.
I think that is a reflection of the rest of the system and personal preference and taste. If the mat corrects a particular flaw in the turntable, I think most people would have more unified opinion regarding using mat or not and which mat.
Audio is not a billion dollars (at least on boutique, small operation scale which is most high end manufacturers) so no surprise that R&D is not going to be as extensive as aircraft, cruise missle or space industries and since it is audio, the final judgement is always going to be in listening regardless of how much science went into it, in my opinion. |
No, Ebm, I do not have a "legand" turntable, never heard of it. Is it French? |
Your insecurity is sad, Ebm. I hope you can overcome it. But measuring your worth through your audio purchases and ability to try to say how copper platters sound relative to aluminum platters, and other such audio minutia, is not the path to better feelings of self worth.
What does it say when you are so threatened by an alternative view, and can only resort to name calling?
|
Kiddman what turntable and speakers do have Mr Legand?? |
You are a legend in your own mind JERK!!!!! |
No it is not. There are ways to do things right, sometimes weveral. But it IS a case of a materials scientist, modelling, and finite element analysis guy who has worked on these problems that involve many designs in several fields. Unfortunately in audio the work on tables and mats is mostly blind experimentation. Amazingly, many say that is the best way. Well, these are simple problems compared to an aircraft or Cruise Missile or space craft. Do you think ANY of those harder problems would be best solved by the trial and error, one man's opinion approach used in audio that so many on the forum espouse? Scores and scores and scores would have been killed, and yet we NEVER would have gotten there.
|
so is this the case of a competing manufacturer/designer bashing another product? |
6 years of formal education, 35 years design engineering, consulting, and reasearch and several systems that would shrink your ego several sizes. Meanwhile you can worship your old rig which you had no part of designing or producing. The difference between a "doer" and a passive user of other folks work, defining yourself by that which you buy, then proclaim best. |
well, essentially that is exactly what everyone is talking about, the original platters are flawed so folk put another thin platter on top (what else is a mat? The record cannot tell if it is a platter or mat)to come up with another set of compromises.
How about starting with a really good platter? |
I prefer no mat but since systems vary it is not surprising that some find a mat that does something they like.
Its not like anyone talking about stacking on another platter on top of the OEM platter to cover up the flaws of the original one. |
fancy that a discussion regarding TW would bring out VPI basher as well! Geez...
I wonder what is the different between Zanden and Zanden/TW mat. Zanden mat that I tried was very soft and rubbery and it damped down the sound too much. That was when I still had the old Raven AC platter. I rather like Millenium mat but with felt side up (I know the carbon side is supposed to be up)for both Raven AC and BN platter. Mat/center weight are rather system dependent as they will alter sound. It may work in certain system better than other or not. With old Raven AC platter, I never found any clamp that work well with it until a local dealer let me burrow Creaktiv Systems Twister Stop Diablo which is an acrylic center weight. With BN platter, I am back to no center weight. |
Kiddman thats all jive!! What makes you the mat turntable guru for everybody!!What system and turntable do you have Mr Expert!! |
If TW Mat is bringing colorations there are very nice colorations - at least in my setup.
So far there are the most pleasant colorations from the lot of tested mats :-) |
Mixing and matching colorations is what the matt enthusiasts ere doing.
If the platter is right use no mat. If the platter is wrong change turntables unless you don't have any money. If that's the case try every common material you can instead of listening to the B.S.ers who say they have the only "right mat". There is no such thing, so ignore them. Snake oil sellers are a dime a dozen in this industry, and boy are they dogmatic. Just note the turntable maker who keeps chiming in on this forum. He's so right he changes his designs like his underwear, and swears each one is THE answer! |
New mat quieter,warmer better detail etc.Tried Millennium never used it. |
Luna, I have one on order and should arrive in the next 7-10 days. I currently use the Millennium mat that came with my Raven AC. As soon as I get the new mat and make a slight adjustment in my VTA to accommodate the mat, I will do some listening and let you know the sonic differences. I will report back here.... |
I wonder how it compares to the Millennium mats and if any Raven owners have tried it? |
Appearance wise, the Zanden bears an uncanny resemblance to the Achromat although the construction is slightly different. The Achromat is only about 50 quid as opposed to $500
(BTW this isn't a plug for the Achromat because I loathe it. I've got a brand new one gathering dust in a cupboard somewhere. If there was any sonic commonality that wouldn't augur well for the Zanden...) |
