TW-Acustic Arm

Hallo,
the arm is still in production and available as a real product.
The first batch are sold out and the next ones will be at your local dealers place in 3-4 weeks.
The first review is out in the German print magazine "LP".
I am sorry, this is only in German language.
I do my best to have a translation ready in the next weeks.
There will be more up coming reviews in the future.

Thomas

Hi Ttttt,

some sensitivities in high ended minds seem to be universal. Just walk around a little in your new asylum to appreciate the differences.

But if want to read a hearing report you have to go back to the german forum - there's one. Listened at TW's home some days ago.

As far as I know only a small sample of prototypes are existing. You can't yet buy it regularly. So experiences may be sparse till now.

Hello,

I joined Audiogon for 'escaping' the level in the German forum, but it's like coming home. Same narrow minded sensitivities, but another place - thanks guys.

Back to topic: is there anybody who already had a listnening session with the 10.5? There was a report in 'the' German forum and the 'LP' magazine, which sounded quite good regarding the performance of the arm.

RE: Raul...I was being over sarcastic, sometimes the keys I type and the words I think are two different things. Raul is great and I have learned much from him.

The offer stands though. I'll host account the first one. Webinars are great for connecting. Let's give one a try. The only issue is the audio. Our account does not have the 800 dialin number, so the call is a toll call to areacode 408 USA. I have tried Skype on the Webinars but the delays are very prominent with International Internet connections.

Peter

Webex audio seminar hosted by Audiogon. I love that idea.

And Audiogon could charge a price (hopefully small) for admission and/or replay.

Mikey can moderate.

Peter,

I happen to like Raul. He has his biases but it isn't about product but more about synergy and design. He is transparent enough about them and has helped many here with wonderful advise.
But if such an event does ever happen, how about in person and taking place in Mexico.

We can have a wonderful discourse in Spanish, German & English.

How about a Stereophile Show in Mexico instead.

I must say that the enjoyment factor here is very high. Let's raise it to the next level and have a meet, facetime. You know... Internet cameras, etc. The real deal.

I'll host it. A webinar: gratis from moneyrec.com. You have to have a webcam so we can see your face and thus get the truth and the lies out in the open. We can first congrat Thuchan on his purchase, we can then needle Raul as to where his tonearm vaporwear is, next to Dertonarm and his groudbreaking table and way to lose his retirement funds, next to Syntax on why we are not as smart as we should be. I'll invite Fremer to the party since he owns the current rage. I'll record the deck and we can sell to those less fortunate :)

Peter

Hi Wini, - o.k. first of all: Syntax you won the bet ...
If TW and Mr. Wiedemann do think they have designed - based on their knowledge... - the ultimate tonearm as they do understand it, this is certainly great for them, but not my problem.
There will certainly be enough "claqueures" (sic....) in their camp to further promote those ultimate products.
Fine.
We will see in due course - in 1-2 years - the used market price for the TW 10.5 (because there will be enough first hand buyers who will part again in due course with this ultimate tonearm...).
That will be the first real judgement.
We will see.
BTW - TW has sent me 3 emails as PM yesterday and congratulated me on my expertise and in-depth knowledge of his products and their flaws and virtues.
So you see - he and me, we really are on good terms.
That one quote of you however is puzzling:
***It has nothing in common with products, which components where bought in for cheap and sold in a shiny package for a lot of money (e.g.stepups from a Bavarian seller).***

I don't understand..... you mentioned (and I know that was true at least yesterday..) that TW is based in Herne/North-Rhine Westfalia.......... is he now about to move to Bavaria ?

You mistake my comments in one vital point. I am not in here for bashing any products for the joy of it.
What I can't stand is that every decent new launched product is hailed as the holy grail and the "ultimate".
I look at those products (mechanical ones - TTs and tonearms - NOT amplifiers) and see off hand several aspects of its design which I know do compromise its performance.
That is the reason why I ask for some earned laurels first before allowing any product to be called state-of-the-art right away.
Well - in any case, in early summer you are most welcome to discuss here a turntable I have designed and which will be presented here on Audiogon as well as in some international audio magazines.
It has 4 times the price tag of the TW's Black Night - so most german audiophiles won't be able to afford it.
However they will learn a lot about turntables.
But they won't like it at all......

Hi Wini,
glad to meet another German user from TW's Marketing group after DT got 4 - four - private emails from TW.
2 Answers from you here at A'gon and both for TW products. Nice.
cheers for you too.

Hi DerTonarm,
you are not informed quite well.
The 10.5 was egineered by Michael Wiedemann / Thomas Woschnik.
I know Michael for several years now. This design is not his first one. He has done many designs over the years.
But now, with the knowlegde of TW, he was able to design the ultimate tonearm, as he understand it.
It has nearly nothing in common with the arm, he introduced in the german AAA forum.
This arm was engineered and is build in Germany/Ruhrarea.
It has nothing in common with products, which components where bought in for cheap and sold in a shiny package for a lot of money (e.g.stepups from a Bavarian seller).
Cheers
Wini

Der Tonarm,
Thank you for clarifying yourself. I know that because you are in marketing that many issues regarding how people perceive a product to those who are early adopters add relevance to purchasing decisions.

I am a business major myself and understand fully the concept of marketing and product placement. With audio products in the marketing mix, the 4 P's, product, price, place and promotion they do not seem to garner the same role as regular commercial products, because in audio, everyone is waiting for someone to comment on the product, the early adopters of such a product help make the sales or help to prevent sales. In mainstream marketing of a commercial product, the interest is garnered at a much larger scale and the community is a lot larger. For us audio minions, the community is so small that word of mouth and posts in these forums are really golden words for some and help many others to fully understand what is going on with the particular product that is being referenced. Many people are blowing off the magazine reviews to get impressions from audio products in these very forums. If I was marketing a product for the audio community, (I would ask my marketing manager who works for me in my business)I would use tools to search out the most popular products from the low end to the high end and focus my tactics on the products that are most asked about or wanted by fellow audio interested people. Again, a small niche. Now I am way off topic.
Hey where are you in Germany? I am in the Rheinland Pfalz region, Kaiserslautern area.
I know what forum you are talking about, the same one with the Forumslaufwerk. I never tried to keep up with that topic.

Syntax,
Great idea. I agree. That is why I made my comments regarding the early adopters and people who will get a chance to use the product and submit their impressions. That is one reason that this very forum exists. I can’t wait to hear some impressions as I am looking at adding another tone arm to my turntable, a non-TW one. Perhaps this new one will fit my needs.

Ciao,
Audioquest4life

Well, personally I am impressed from GerryM5 that he tries to get in contact with some Germany Audiophiles. I guess he knows that most are not able to answer in english language even when all Germans have it in school to survive outside the own border :-)
The German forums have mainly 2 attributes:
-to show who is without work/lives at Hotel Mama
or
- to get something cheap from a Dealer or Manufacturer, and it is pretty boring anyway.
Most forums are marketing platforms, I have no problem with that, but what amazes me for years is the fact, from the real competent Designers I never find any "comments or buddies who do him a favor" but from those who are glad that some think positive about their real world average products, they are endless.
Let's try to save the good Standard here :-)

Audioquestlife, well, I can see marketing inference for the new TW tonearm - and marketing is my profession....
Audio web forums are today the prime marketing platforms of most smaller high end manufacturers - and that is o.k. with me.
I would however prefer a minimum of objective and clear minded sceptic distance to a new product without any laurels yet.
And yes, I am registered with 2 of those "German audio forums". However - the comments and posts there are so low level, that I couldn't justify to my personal high esteem to participate there.
A total waste of time.
I have personally set-up alone or in team 3 TW Raven ACs.
The virtues and flaws of that particular TW turntable are well known to me.
At least as well as to his designer.
TW has bought the design of the 10.5 OEM from a german engineer to whom it was his first attempt as such and which was originally intended to serve as a kind of "inexpensive tonearm for all" on the major German forum AAA.
Kind of "Foren-Tonarm".
But you know this very well too.

Dertonarm,

I did not see any marketing inference for the new TW tonearm. I for one do post on German audio web sites and engage others with audio discussions as you do here in the American forums. I can where Gerrym5 was going with his post and do not see any reason fro him to feel bad about it, as the new TW tonearm is readily available in Germany and not the USA right now.

I was able to see a TW turntable in a Hi-Fi show in Dusseldorf a few years ago. It looked and sounded real nice.

Are you registered with any of the German audio forums such as Analog Audio Association, Roehren-und-Hoeren or Hifi-forum.de?

Ciao,
Audioquestlife

First, I'm sorry for murdering German. Pretty stupid idea on my part trying a translating program. Second, I'm not in any way trying to create buzz TW's new arm. Just got to excited (crazy) about getting additional arms for my TT and I wanted to see if there was some "in country" (German) experience with this TW arm.

Solong, you are right the photos are fantastic.

If you want to get some more information on the genesis of this tonearm, you can (try to) read the discussions already hold in a german forum last year.

Raven 10.5 Tonarm

Some history:
Miwi - Tonarm

It is completely written in (rather idiosyncratic) German. Use bablefish or something like that to translate that website.
By the way you can judge the performance of translation engines and how they twist _your_ mother tongue.

I got some seductive pictures of the arm from TW by mail, but I haven't seen or heard it yet.

Please - if you guys need to create some online marketing help for TW's new tonearm, - for heaven's sake: do it in english
Any german attending here is at least able to produce some decent english in written form.
So certainly no need to address any request in german.
What your translation-tools do produce as "german translation" is much worse than you can possibly imagine.
And I for one am German.

Sorry, aber neine, ich habe nie gehort mit der tonarm. Ich habe die TW Akustik laufwerk im eine audio-show im Dusseldorf gehort, aber damals war die TW geraten meisten nur im Deutschland. Was ich gehort damals war schones Musik und alles was gehort zu "pretty damn good listening" plattenspieler.

Was ich gehort war aber schon. Ich habe spater mals eine Transrotor Apollon gekauft, war endlich prinzip aber fur mich optik spielt eine faktor, und, dazu mit zehr gute klang.

Ich sehe die TW mit neue tonarm als geheim audio tip fur analog fans ganze welt. Viel Gluck.

MFG,
Audioquest4life

And no I am not German.

MEIN appologies, um dieses Übersetzer-Programm zu verwenden, aber nahm ich Deutsch in der Universität vor 45 Jahren, und mein Gedächtnis hat mir im Zurückrufen coversation Deutsch gefehlt. Ich stelle diese Frage das Analogvinyl enthusists in Deutschland. Haben Musik vom neuen TW-Acustic Arm gehört? Ich habe an das Kaufen von demjenigen gedacht, aber keiner hat ein in den USA, um mir einen recomendation zu geben

What's the name of that Arm? "Good Night"?

And in high-end a "painting" is cheered and talked up before anybody of the prospective buyers even saw (here read: heard..) it.
Would you pay a premium price for a so far unseen painting of a painter who has never before actually made a painting just by chance that it "might stir your heart" ?
So far we can judge the TW 10.5 only by the following "facts":
It's origin (first tonearm of a company so far only associated with and manufacturing turntables). It's look (standard). It's price tag (pretty high for a very simple design). It's technical features (none of which is new).
So lets way and hear - everything else is just hollow marketing hype and till now I can't see any USP in the TW 10.5 which by any chance would justify the price tag.

I make my purchase decision based on how it sounds, not how fancy the materials are or how it looks. I have been criticized for liking 47labs because it is priced too much for the number of parts it uses. But why should I buy something with top transports and extremely expensive parts but sound lousier than the 47labs? My end is to enjoy the music not to impress how good looking my system is.

Why are other paintings more expensive than others? Do you buy a painting because the canvas and paint used are more expensive than the others? You buy a painting because it stirs something in you. Just a thought :D

Dear Curio, of course TW's 10.5 is far superior sonically to all tonearms he compared it to. Seriously, would you - or anybody else - expect otherwise ? Do you expect any manufacturer to launch a new product stating: "yes, I compared it to the best of the current production and it isn't as good, but has its merits..." ...?
Every new product is the very best and ahead of any competition in the laudatio of its father (designer, productioner).
Its about the others to find out the truth and the inevitable test of time to proof the real content of any marketing claim and promotion.
In 10 years the used market price and demand of the TW 10.5 will tell the story.

Hello,
the retail price is EUR 3990,00 incl. vta adjuster on the fly.
We do our best to make sure that the prices are the same all over the world.
Jeffrey Catalano from High Water Sound NY will have setup two 10.5 arms at the show in Jacksonville.

Thomas

Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands. (Eps)

Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior.
Well , I can trust him .. no reason I (or we) don't believe him.
But this isn't a good reason to practice a "wallet massage" to his customers!
Dear Eps to my house 6000 euros , like David said above , are lotsa money also for a good arm!
Telling the truth he told me much less than 6000 euros .. but even a mass of money compared to other well know and acclaimed arms price

IMHO

Well, unless the TW 10.5 arm's wand isn't filled with granulated platinum or at least 24k gold, I simply can't find any hint to the announced price tag in the pictures nor description. But surely TW will provide enough good reason in the upcoming tests. But it definitely is no derivate from the venerable swiss Breuer Dynamic design of the early (very early...) 1980ies. It looks fairly plain in all due respect. Well - we will see (hear ?) in due course and given the price tag it will automatically and universally greeted as one of the top tonearms of our day. No doubt about that.

It is a true 10.5 inch arm w. is a bit longer than most of the arms mentioned here. It can be purchased w. adjustable VTA on the fly. All the parts are purpose built and the build quality is said to be very high. There are a few very nice unique features including an azimuth adjustment at the headshell and different counterweights supplied that can be switched for different cartridges. It uses a magnetic antiskate mechanism but has little need for antiskatee. The effective mass is 14 gms and the arm is made from anodized aluminum. The bearring housing has the same shape as the Raven plinth. Suffice it to say TW is very happy w. the sound and build quality. Another nice thing is the counterweight screws onto the back of the arm so dialing in VTF should be easy & provides for fine adjustment.

Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands.

Isnt the TW arm a Breuer derivative? - Perrew -

I don't recognize anything from the Breuer design in TW Acoustic 10.5 arm

Isnt the TW arm a Breuer derivative?

I do not think anyone outside of Germany has there heard it in their setup.
Jeff from High Water should get one soon, and hearing all of TW's other products over the years with new introductions, I assume it will be another home run.
I believe this arm is priced to compete with the Graham Phantom, Tri-Planar and SME V, price point.
The pictures that I have seen are a product of top notch quality.
Speaking with Thomas of TW to get some impressions of usability, he said it will work with many different cartirdges in various weight ranges and compliances.

am sure the tw acustic arm is great but for the $, I would probably opt for the time proven phantom, or the triplanar arms. or a used grandezza.

When I spoke to Thomas in April 08, he thought the arm would come in at about 6 to 7000 euros. That may have changed. I am sure it will be good, but more appropriate for an AC3 or Black Knight perhaps?

I'm searching for a good arm for my Raven One too ..and I asked Thomas for the final price of his new 10.5 .. shesshh!! too expencive!
At that price I prefer a preowned or demo DaVinci Grandezza 12" or a new less expencive Graham Phantom or Triplanar VII