TW-Acustic Arm

Dear Adog (cave canem ??),
auctoritas audiophil, non veritas facit legem.....
or in more simple words from the bible: - cuius enim panem manduco, carmina canto....
in ultima ratio.

Well, unless the TW 10.5 arm's wand isn't filled with granulated platinum or at least 24k gold, I simply can't find any hint to the announced price tag in the pictures nor description. But surely TW will provide enough good reason in the upcoming tests. But it definitely is no derivate from the venerable swiss Breuer Dynamic design of the early (very early...) 1980ies. It looks fairly plain in all due respect. Well - we will see (hear ?) in due course and given the price tag it will automatically and universally greeted as one of the top tonearms of our day. No doubt about that.

Dear Curio, of course TW's 10.5 is far superior sonically to all tonearms he compared it to. Seriously, would you - or anybody else - expect otherwise ? Do you expect any manufacturer to launch a new product stating: "yes, I compared it to the best of the current production and it isn't as good, but has its merits..." ...?
Every new product is the very best and ahead of any competition in the laudatio of its father (designer, productioner).
Its about the others to find out the truth and the inevitable test of time to proof the real content of any marketing claim and promotion.
In 10 years the used market price and demand of the TW 10.5 will tell the story.

And in high-end a "painting" is cheered and talked up before anybody of the prospective buyers even saw (here read: heard..) it.
Would you pay a premium price for a so far unseen painting of a painter who has never before actually made a painting just by chance that it "might stir your heart" ?
So far we can judge the TW 10.5 only by the following "facts":
It's origin (first tonearm of a company so far only associated with and manufacturing turntables). It's look (standard). It's price tag (pretty high for a very simple design). It's technical features (none of which is new).
So lets way and hear - everything else is just hollow marketing hype and till now I can't see any USP in the TW 10.5 which by any chance would justify the price tag.

Please - if you guys need to create some online marketing help for TW's new tonearm, - for heaven's sake: do it in english
Any german attending here is at least able to produce some decent english in written form.
So certainly no need to address any request in german.
What your translation-tools do produce as "german translation" is much worse than you can possibly imagine.
And I for one am German.

Audioquestlife, well, I can see marketing inference for the new TW tonearm - and marketing is my profession....
Audio web forums are today the prime marketing platforms of most smaller high end manufacturers - and that is o.k. with me.
I would however prefer a minimum of objective and clear minded sceptic distance to a new product without any laurels yet.
And yes, I am registered with 2 of those "German audio forums". However - the comments and posts there are so low level, that I couldn't justify to my personal high esteem to participate there.
A total waste of time.
I have personally set-up alone or in team 3 TW Raven ACs.
The virtues and flaws of that particular TW turntable are well known to me.
At least as well as to his designer.
TW has bought the design of the 10.5 OEM from a german engineer to whom it was his first attempt as such and which was originally intended to serve as a kind of "inexpensive tonearm for all" on the major German forum AAA.
Kind of "Foren-Tonarm".
But you know this very well too.

Hi Wini, - o.k. first of all: Syntax you won the bet ...
If TW and Mr. Wiedemann do think they have designed - based on their knowledge... - the ultimate tonearm as they do understand it, this is certainly great for them, but not my problem.
There will certainly be enough "claqueures" (sic....) in their camp to further promote those ultimate products.
Fine.
We will see in due course - in 1-2 years - the used market price for the TW 10.5 (because there will be enough first hand buyers who will part again in due course with this ultimate tonearm...).
That will be the first real judgement.
We will see.
BTW - TW has sent me 3 emails as PM yesterday and congratulated me on my expertise and in-depth knowledge of his products and their flaws and virtues.
So you see - he and me, we really are on good terms.
That one quote of you however is puzzling:
***It has nothing in common with products, which components where bought in for cheap and sold in a shiny package for a lot of money (e.g.stepups from a Bavarian seller).***

I don't understand..... you mentioned (and I know that was true at least yesterday..) that TW is based in Herne/North-Rhine Westfalia.......... is he now about to move to Bavaria ?

You mistake my comments in one vital point. I am not in here for bashing any products for the joy of it.
What I can't stand is that every decent new launched product is hailed as the holy grail and the "ultimate".
I look at those products (mechanical ones - TTs and tonearms - NOT amplifiers) and see off hand several aspects of its design which I know do compromise its performance.
That is the reason why I ask for some earned laurels first before allowing any product to be called state-of-the-art right away.
Well - in any case, in early summer you are most welcome to discuss here a turntable I have designed and which will be presented here on Audiogon as well as in some international audio magazines.
It has 4 times the price tag of the TW's Black Night - so most german audiophiles won't be able to afford it.
However they will learn a lot about turntables.
But they won't like it at all......

Hi Perrew, a pivot tonearm can be both - static balanced as well as dynamic balanced.
The TW 10.5 is static balanced as are 99% of all tonearms. Dynamic balanced mode does need some specific design features regarding the bearing.
With the TW 10.5 with its gimbal bearing this would of course be possible, but the twin fathers of the TW 10.5 decided to go for the plain and much simpler approach of static balanced mode only.
One must remember, that giving a tonearm the option of dynamic balanced mode does not mean that it is impossible now to use it static balanced mode.
A dynamic balanced mode tonearm can (usually...) also be put in static mode only - if desired (Micro Seiki MAX and MA as well as SME V, FR-60 series etc.).

On the whole scale the 10.5 is a plain and straight forward gimbal bearing pivot tonearm with static balanced mode and medium mass and a geometry based on the IEC standard (which is suboptimal for older records from the late 1950ies to the late 1960ies).
What I am missing here is anything new or special. We do not see anything here - any real technical design feature - which hasn't been shown in previous designs of other manufacturers.
We see some cosmetic hints to the SME V, some to the new Ortofon, we see a - I believe good quality - gimbal bearing, fixed simple one-piece-counterweight on the same horizontal level as the bearing and an antiskating working with the basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom.
What I would have expected and would have liked to see in a tonearm asking $6k is something new, something unusual or at least something more creative.
I expect however that this tonearm will soon be revised and we will see a MK2 version by 2011.

Meeting in Munich in May ?!
Thichan - great idea !!
I am in for sure !
Now - TW should be at the High-End anyway.
All others should take the opportunity.
Munich is never as nice as in spring time.
Have a web?-camera with you and we can set up a nice discussion group regarding tonearm (and turntable....) design.
I would love to see this happen and would like to discuss tonearm (and turntable...) design with some of the "professional manufacturers" live and in person.

Hello Mr. Woschnik, well I guess you should digest and learn from all those lessons already out there first, before asking for more......
Right now its kind of asking for college tutorial when still struggling with elementary school routine.
There are many lessons out there for a tonearm designer who really wants to create something new and smart - one just have to have a remote interest to learn and to widen one's horizon.

Yes, I am familiar and had in personal use the Phantom and know the Phantom II from direct first hand impressions in a very familiar high class set-up with 3 top-flight current production LOMCs.
Again - you have problems reading correctly: "basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom" doesn't mean "same as..."
But if you look real close you could indeed learn a hell of a lot from Robert Grahams design. Many nice and some -at its point of introduction to the market- unique and highly innovative design features and some really smart solutions.
Something I would really like to see in your tonearm.

Dear Dgad, dear Downunder, you both are proud owners of TW's turntables and probably soon of his tonearm too.
Fine.
I don't think that I kind of loose some of my words, intentions or phrases by converting them into english.
My german is much sharper - no doubt, but I guess you have got me quite well.
Your reaction shows I am right.
Apparently TW has now activated some of his prime international supporters.
Fine again.
How can I criticise a component I haven't heard?

I have placed critic about design issues and a price tag were I can detect no faint correlation to material input, production effort or new features.
I know from the by now widely know design features of the 10.5 very well its virtues and flaws.

See - this is the very first product from a company which has so far only put some decent turntables to the market. I simply do not see any reason for giving this tonearm high praise.
It surely will sound great in your systems - of course, you bought/buy it and you already fall for the sound of TWs turntables.
That is great for you - fine for me and thanks god, not my problem.
Why I still dare even mentioning the FR-66s of decades gone by ?
Because it addressed and incorporated solves for issues in pivot tonearm design which the designers (and the vast majority of all tonearm designers in the past 30 years...) of the TW 10.5 - and most likely (at least so far...) the reviewers of the magazines testing it... - didn't even detected existing.

Try to build a FR-66s w/B-60 today - you will be shocked how expensive the were construction costs are (and I have the schematics for both....). About 4-5 times the production costs of the TW 10.5 w/base - even in a production run of 20-50 samples in a row.
Will or can the TW 10.5 "outperform" (a strange word indeed in this context...) a Phantom or Phantom II ?
Maybe if set up by TW or one of you......
If a Phantom or Phantom II is set up by me, it will show its virtues and I would be happy to demonstrate its superiority with todays top-flight cartridges.
Even on a TW turntable.
Give me 30 minutes with the Phantom II on any Raven with a good cartridge and I show you what good design can produce aside from marketing hype and supporter groups in online chats.

How about a shoot-out at the High-End 2010 ?
Would be a great chance for TW to proof that there are no guts behind my big mouth ....

good day mates.....

Dear Thuchan, the problem is, that plain technical issues and critic not based on personal opinion or "but it sounds good to me" is not wanted, if the manufacturer want's to use a online forum as a free-of-charge marketing platform only.
What provokes my participation in this thread is the hype about a mediocre new product which is - from its mere design parameters and plain viewing less than optimal. Yet graced with a very serious price tag and the hail of the new king and conquerer.

Dear Syntax, ... now who is Woodward, who's Bernstein ? Richard "tricky Dick" Nixon surely has no equivalent nor peer in Audio today. None has his brain and very special idea of ethics - not even me.

Very sorry to see that Dgad isn't really participating in this thread anymore.
He has so far provided quite some entertainment and I was anticipating more (maybe even some technical support for the new offspring his beloved audio-designer of choice - but I guess that hope was futile from the very beginning...) to come.

Hi Downunder, first of all - I want to apologize that I did address you in a batch together with Dgad.
That wasn't my intention and it slipped my attention this morning in my previous post.
So - my formal apology.
I usually do have serious regard for your set-up, taste and opinion.

Well - I don't have to see "in the flesh" a tonearm if it is presented in good pictures and with it's basic design features displayed and described.
It is a mechanical device I am very familiar with and which is fairly simple.
I can tell with most any turntable or tonearm the sound it will produce from its mere technical parameters and features.
I am selling the DaVinci 12" for a good friend on his behalf and - yes, its new retail price tag is in no way better in terms of value/input for money than the TW 10.5, - no doubt about that.
P10 & P3 - great buys. In fact - steals.

I am not into video, but its a nice idea.
It will however not come as free lunch, as I am used to get payment for my time and knowledge.
We'll see.

My new turntable? - I have sold 12 units of its forerunner (which wasn't much cheaper...) and have 3 blind orders already. So - no worries......

You will have a chance to hear it at the High-End 2011 in Munich.
However - you will see pictures and find it in 2-3 systems descriptions here on Audiogon a few months before.

So - rest assured - my big mouth is heavily at work already and since quite some time.

Hi Downunder, several A'goners already asked me in PMs for pictures, but the former version is no longer in production and will soon see its revival in an all new design which will give very little reminder of its forerunner.
My former TT is pretty well known among seasoned audiophiles in Germany. And its granted with a much better image than its father. In its day it was the most expensive turntable on the market.

However - I will prepare some pictures and send to you by PM tomorrow.
It will give my big words a more solid foundation.

I do hold very high regards for the japanese fine tooling engineering of the late 1970ies/early 1980ies - it was their prime time and the quality and precision finds hardly any match today.
Furthermore - back then there were real engineers around to develop and execute the audio designs for the top-flight contenders. All this backed up by much more money and man-power than today.

Munich is always worth a trip - not just for the High-End show.
There are some really serious audiophiles around Munich (not so much in the city....) - and you can see and hear all the most expensive and elusive turntables and tonearms/cartridges on the market (well - Walker may be missing...) in a radius of 1 1/2 hour drive around Munich (some well known german analog A'goners live in this area).

Well Dgad, again - sorry to see, but the best joke escaped your attention completely.
How about setting the 5th coke/energy drink aside for a moment (you know - sugar and phosphor in close reaction aren't good for your health, concentration and peace of mind) , calm down a bit, re-collect your mind and re-read some posts.
Then just think about the topic from a more remote point of view.
As a hypothesis, just take some of my posts as if they originated from someone else.
That will all in a sudden widen the perspective and horizon.
It might be a bit complicated in the beginning, but if you try real hard, you will get the points.
Take your time - there's no rush.

Dear Thuchan, of course you are right, but it was in fact never a real discussion. Would you volunteer to test the TW 10.5 ? Might be fun, as you certainly have a jolly good number of potential contenders ( regarding the price tag new and used as well as the claim for performance superiority) and certainly some space to mount the new white bird.
Even more so, as you do not belong in any "camp" and certainly aren't pained by jealousy regarding TWs "brand" success.
You have all the tools and experience and a set-up certainly capable showing any virtues or flaws. I know that a few of your cartridges will certainly find universal approval to serve in the 10.5".
So - that would shine some light on this dark stage.

What I am missing from all these dear critics of mine (my negativism, my inapprobiate sharp tone (sorry for hitting the right buttons - but I am an author by profession in real life) ... extent the list as you wish) is but a single technical support for the TW 10.5.
Tell me why this tonearm should deserve any laurels ahead.
Tell me about its innovative new design features.
Tell me about all the issues in pivot tonearm design which have been addressed here and haven't been so already elsewhere.
I am waiting.

Since a few days already.

All I get is "but if it sounds greater/better/superior than ..." from people who haven't even heard the 10.5 yet (nor do have - apparently - any small idea about technical issues in tonearm design).
So far a very plain and simple design not really correlating with its very serious price tag.
We are talking about the very first product of its kind launched to the market by a company which has never before made/designed/co-designed a tonearm.

For a brief period it may be fine exchanging comments about personal dislikes, but its a bit boring by now. Each of us know his/her personal disregard of the abilities/hearing/knowledge (extent list at your wish....) of some of the "others".
We have "friends of Charlotta" and "enemies of Charlotta" - fine.
And frankly - its even more boring if the others sense simply isn't capable of getting the joke.
Dgad, the best bonmot however is in fact escaping you totally......

So - any chance to discuss any prospective or theoretical technical greatness and singularity due to unique design features of the tonearm ( reminder: its about the TW 10.5...) discussed here ?
Or do you have the very same problem finding any?

Ttttt, what are the technical issues in tonearm design?

How about someone asking TW that question .....

Its about pivot tonearm design here in general and whether a new product tries to address some of the questions or maybe all.
The Linn Ekos SE does have a very serious price tag too - indeed.
However - I quit making any comment about any Linn product in he late 1980ies and won't break my rule. I will neither comment any Linn product nor do I communicate with any proud owner/admirer of Linn components.

But the answer lies in a direct - even an only visual one - glance to the two tonearms.
Both are of comparable "complexity" and both face and therefor should "address" - as any pivot tonearm should... - the very same technical issues and demands.
Now the core question arise whether those issues were actually detected and understood.
Thats where in our mother language "sich die Spreu vom Weizen trennt" - or that's the way the cookie crumbles....

To illustrate the point please look close at 2 long time contenders for top-tier in pivot tonearm design - both are around for more than 20 years now in their various versions and incarnations - the Graham and the Wheaton/Triplanar.
Their designers both tried from the very beginning to address several issues they had realized existed and were key steps on their way to create a great tonearm design. They both detected many other small issues and modified and evolved their designs over many years.
Getting better and better in a long struggle for optimizing.
Two tonearms I both had in various versions side by side with other great designs of the art.
I have great respect for both of them - I do prefer the Graham design due to its consequence in attention to detail and the Triplanar sadly lost its father due to the run of life all too early.
Both however were belonging to the handful of great pivot tonearms 20 years back and did hold their place ever since to this very day.

Why?

Because their designers tried hard and went new ways which to some extend were their very own.
Two very different approaches which both tried to took care about very similar questions in design, mechanic, energy transmission, force vectors and periphery.

Reading a comment like that the new tonearm in discussion here "is clearly superior to .." one or both of those proven designs, only shows to me that the author of those lines has either
a) no clue what he is talking about
b) a special way of hearing which is all his very own..
c) a very poor and limited set-up I do not want to learn about...
d) taken some funny - if very effective - pharmacy...

The co-designer of the 10.5 said in this thread he is looking forward to more lessons in analog from me.
I told him that there are enough lessons out there to learn from before asking for more.

There are great tonearms already out there.
Designs which stayed and survived the hardest and most painstaking test of all - the test of time.
All issues in pivot tonearm design have already been addressed - but never in one single component.
Some did succeed in many points - none in all.

Thats all my critic is about - if a new component is hailed like King Arthur's return to this sphere of existence (and with a price tag further announcing it...) I expect to see more than the picture of a white ? Raven on its bearing block cover.

Tttt, the Wheaton/Triplanar does feature a cardanic bearing too - just like the Breuer, Ekos, TW and about 60% - 75% of todays tonearms.
You miss the point - the bearing concept has some influence on the sonic performance, but any bearing - knife edge, magnetic, gimbal, uni-pivot, air-bearing or mechanic - can yield excellent results.
It is about taking all the different issues into consideration and addressing them in a good designed tonearm.
The bearing is but just one of many different topics.
A good - even great - bearing can be bought from many tool-boxes OEM easily.

"Anyway, nobody will know better before listening himself" - well, thats the problem...... this is not the point at all.
Trying to judge a new tonearm now by its "sound" (whatever that is...) would imply in the very beginning, that the system set-up will be perfect (impossible...), the listening room likewise (not likely either ..) - simply all other factors beyond question and critic.

All you or any other testing the 10.5 can possibly find out whether its suits your particular taste at that point of experience in audio-listening and system set-up and under the given surrounding conditions of hardware, state of health, cartridge etc.
Thats why I am so amused about "sonic performance" as the ultimate point in the design of a purely (!) mechanical device.
Or let me put it in even shorter words:
... a perfect designed (in the mechanical/technical sense of the word) tonearm, addressing all issues in its concept will, as a direct consequence, produce the best possible "sound" with any cartridge suitable to work under the given conditions.
Why so ?
Because all the tonearm does, is to give the best possible working and guiding conditions to a cartridge.
The tonearm is nothing but the direct mechanical periphery to the cartridge at work.
The tonearm can only lessen the sound of the cartridge - it will never enhance it. All the tonearm can do - and none does - is to make no mistake.
And these are all matters of geometry, mass - dynamic and static, energy transmission and handling.
All plain simple physics - no Voodoo, no myth, no secret knowledge.

My "superior knowledge" in this case is just a matter of looking closely, using my brain and following mechanical rules.
There is no secret knowledge needed to build a truly great tonearm - there is care to detail, an intensive and complete blue-book addressing all details, a clear concept free from marketing calls, an open-minded engineer who looked at everything which was made before and detected all the pros and cons of the various attempts of others.

The Breuer Dynamic is a design which goes back to the days of (here we go again...) a Fidelity Research FR-66s.
It was quite expensive in the very early 1980ies and has more or less only hold its price tag ever since.

Its a delicate, in its early days sometimes fragile, design of today very nice craftsmanship, care and good attention to its details. It is very cartridge-sensitive too. That is to the mechanic energy emitted by the cartridge at work.

Tttt, fine.
If you look at the Breuer and TW 10.5 and don't see much difference that is certainly great for you and TW.
It is not about absolute judgement here - that concept is a purely religious one anyway.
It is about looking close, with sharp eyes, open mind and with knowledge.
Otherwise it is the classic scenery of the girl buying the specific car because of its color and because its a special series model labeled with "Cosmopolitan - the magazine" on its back side.
Furthermore it comes with a free sample of "Sex and the City" on blue-ray.
Those are certainly enough hard facts to justify the purchase.
After all - she can't go wrong with those features.

Testing a tonearm is a futile attempt for almost any audiophile and reviewer.
To digest the sonic signature and contribution/deduction of the specific tonearm under test, one must have a clear idea about what actually are those contributions/possible deductions direct relating to certain design features, mechanical parameters etc.
Next you have to keep all other parameters stable.
As most audiophiles struggle hard to keep their set-up on constant day-to-day level performance, we are talking an illusion from the beginning.

People will buy the TW 10.5 not because it "sounds" great, but because it is a TW tonearm and they already have a TW turntable and because they might get a really good package deal.
And that is perfectly fine - it is the way the market functions.
Most people do talk about performance, quality, listening tests and going for the "very best only".
But those are nothing more than standardized lip-services.
Most audiophiles indeed believe, that gathering real back-ground knowledge means regular reading of high-end magazines.
Oh my.....

Dgad, yes - in fact a few of my articles have been translated into english (as a matter of fact - I wrote them in english...).
However they were publish in technical papers about IT security, quality control, precision tooling and the like for professional applications - much too complicated literature.
Very bad stuff when one is on coke and chips and with the air-condition fighting the caribbean heat.
I too had 1 or 2 articles in "the absolu!e sound" back in the mid-early 1990ies.
Those weren't that complicated.

Dear Halcro, it sounds very nice.... what exactly did you say ?
Well - I do not want to disappoint you....
I didn't knew that you and TW are relatives and that I did deeply hurt your feelings by not labeling the Raven for its greatness and singular genius in design.
Too many audiophiles mistake components for beloved children - proving once again that all they care about the hardware only and that the "love for music" is carried like the cross of christ before them, but is only a hollow confession.

Is there an official promotion out there who gets the biggest discount for the best and most rude reply to me ?
In any case - it wasn't necessary to go to such length to tell me how right I am.
I fully understand that you do not want to learn and that you are fine with your set-up and the illusion of owning a system approaching the state of the art.
Absolutely no problem - certainly not mine.
BTW - neither you nor the other champs in that old thread you are referring to ever gave the topic a second ( a bit deeper ...) thought - did you?
You missed a chance.
Cheers,
D.

post scriptum: My set-up ? See it is boring explaining things when you know in advance that the other can't possible comprehend. But rest in peace - its tubes AND solid state......... its not about tube OR solid state, its about what you do and how. But that is a much more complicated subject than tonearms and turntables.
I could rip your set-up into pieces from what I see in your pictures and description alone. But - so what - you are happy with it and that is fine.
That your benchmarks are so much lower than mine is your fortune.
As I said much earlier in a lost thread - I too have some questions in audio, but I know I won't find any answers to my questions here.
I know I am hard to stomach for you and some others right now, but you would be surprised what a nice and sociable man I am in real life. I just react to something that provokes that reaction.

What I am still missing - is technical support for the 10.5. Isn't there any at all?

Tttt, sorry you are wrong. And so are your assumption of me "connive" at your comparing "similar design" tonearms.
I took the price tag as a call for quality and excellence - you took it as a qualifier.
Of course TW established a brand - this is his one and so far only remarkable contribution to the audio world.
But a brand isn't automatically leading to - nor defining - quality.
But maybe me concept of "quality" hasn't kept up with modern day view.
Just as a reminder - quality in its original sense of the word means neither "presence" nor "price tag" nor "brand".
It means quality - nothing else.
"Brand" BTW, isn't the same either as it used to be in the days before the foremost attention of all managers focussed on shareholder-value and the next quarterly report.

Brand today is as hollow as most marketing action.
And I studied marketing and graduated in.
A terrible business.

In your opinion no closer looking may be possible, - but it is.
Guess we both will agree, that it will make a hell of a difference whether Michael Schumacher drives a Formula 1 car or you take driver's seat.
Aside from the fact that he may be a bit faster than you, he furthermore will be able to tell the technicians some important information after the ride. How the car behaves in certain situations, where there might be some room for improvement - etc.
He will gather all that information and detect tiny details while driving his rounds. In the very same situation you might have a hard struggle keeping the F-1 car on the track at all and might be forced to focus all your senses on surviving the ride. In addition, you may not have too much knowledge to start with about Formula 1 racing car design (which indeed is one world more complex and demanding than audio design as a whole - let alone tonearm design).

When he and you stand in front of the F-1 car, just glancing at it, he most likely will see much more than you too. He too already might have a good idea about how the car might behave and how to drive it.

See the point ?

Of course this discussion doesn't "lead to a reasonable result".
It can't.
The position of the TW 10.5 isn't backed by any technical support - despite the fact that we had a lot of posts by its co-designer himself and his dear friend from the southern caribbean. But all these posts did not contain a single technical input, but concentrated on my person.

As said before - I am still waiting for technical facts to give the tonearm in question some good reason for its claim of superiority ... and its price tag.

Dear Difool, with the tonearm TW is the co-designer (according to his own words..). Of course a great component can be designed from scratch. There are proven designs out there testifying that it can happen.
TW's turntable aren't that good an example however, as they may be average, but certainly not "top" ( they may perform "better" in some set-ups compared to the units "tested" in those set-ups before, but that is a purely relative comparison, certainly not an absolute one ) - at least not from the point of view of seasoned audiophiles who trust their own ears and don't fall right away for the latest hype-review of an under-paid and over-rated audio reviewer with little experience.
TW missed out to address a hell of a lot of important design features of a truly great turntable in his Raven - as well as in his later offsprings.
The fact that neither his customers nor some of the reviewers did notice that, is only testifying one of the inherent rules of this crazy business.

See - my critic goes ( this point gets lost again and again during this thread, as none of the TW-supporters does really react to the technical/design issue ) against its claim for "superiority" and the instant labeling that the new 10.5 will be a top-tier tonearm.

Nothing is more easy in high-end today, then designing and building a top-tier tonearm.
It is a purely mechanical device of simple function and just about 2 handful of issues to watch and to take care of.
All you need is a good eye, concentrate use of at least one brain, a good blue-book and a clear idea of what you really want to achieve.
Shouldn't be too hard ....

As said before - ALL issues in pivot-tonearm-design have been addressed already. However they were never addressed so far in ONE single tonearm ever brought to the market (a few however came VERY close... one or two of them are still current production...).
All a designer has to do today, is to watch closely and have a deep analysis of the best tonearm designs out there. Then combining their virtues and eliminating and addressing the very few points left.
e' voila - the "perfect" tonearm.

But if I see a new design, which is sadly uninspired and misses out on a lot of those issues to be addressed no one can expect me to raise my hands in praise to the new conquering hero.

As said before - I am sure that the two co-designers of the 10.5 will see in the very near future the design points they missed and we will see a MK 2-version by 2011.
At least - I hope so.

Hello Asa, of course there is a steep difference between a "writer" and an "author".
If you are only familiar with the first one - that's fine.
Regarding the mind, it levels and materialistic "worldview" I strongly recommend reading two german authors' works: I. Kant's "Kritik der reinen Vernunft" as well as R. Steiner "Philosophie der Freiheit".
They give answers to your questions. The once you asked - and the questions you may think about.
Most dragons, as well as most demons, are only reflections by the back walls of once's own eye-lids.

Dear Nandric, while I certainly enjoy your post and hold your attitude towards high end in high esteem, I think very few would like to follow us in the direction this discussion is now going.
While the original purpose of either "party" for the ultimate goal of this thread is long lost and the thread as alive as a dead horse, I would nevertheless add a final comment from my side.

My original intend - here and in many other threads I participated in - was, that everyone should at less show a remote interest in the art of deduction in the sense of looking close and with attention to detail to a new product. Without being - positively or negatively - biased in his view by name, image or price tag. I however realized that this in fact is the most dangerous mine-field of them all.
Way too many audiophiles do give individual audio components a status, which they never deserve.
This should all be about transmitting recorded music.
Any high-end component is nothing but a technical device which should - in an ideal world - suit it's purpose and should otherwise "vanish" from the mind and attention.
As this whole game is today a lot about money, buying power and image/status by owning certain (expensive) components this attempt is of course futile.
Looking close, looking for plain results, performance and contend does today interfere in the most cruel sense of the word with the price tag and the status gained by owning a hailed and expensive component.

Well - a brave new world.
The world we deserve - as we apparently don't ask for more and so deserve no better.

Dear Thuchan, sorry to burst the bubble, but those plain and maybe quite uncomfortable sandals you are referring to, did conquer europe while covering the feet of the roman legions.
They did it without air cushioned heels and they did it the hard way. With attention to detail, discipline and great engineering (first phonton-bridge over the Rhine, superb aqueducts all over southern europe - some still standing after two milleniae).
So those sandals or the attitude going with them back then would just look great on some audio designers today.
Yes, it is of course fun discussing our toys.
But we are hardly discussing them.
The attention today is too much circled around the toys "per se" and discussion means different opinions. Different opinion about a component means heading straight into the mine-field of hurt feelings.
Quod erat demonstrandum in disputa ...........

I have the killer - and it is a tonearm.....

Dgad, you said "But... there have been quite a few products promoted here that have been "the flavor of the month" type."
For once in a while we totally agree.

Hi Downunder,
it sure was obvious - wasn't it?
How could I missed that one - it was handed on a plate.
But seriously - I am quite happy that finally he and me came to some terms and share at least a small common ground and point of view.

The Munich HE show report.... ?
Most feedback from Munich HIgh-End show made favorite mention of the Korean Audiophile displaying - and playing - 1940ies small Western Electric theatre short horns with Allnic amplification (as far as I remember it was Allnic ...).
Since large picture horn systems are terra incognita for most German audiophiles not into vintage theatre sound, this did not fail to make a huge impression on a large portion of the visitors.
A very different )if vintage...) sound which stand out and away from the "crowd" for various reason.
Besides that - hardly anything new to mention. Manuel Huber showed off his Thales and Simplicity tonearms at Brinkmann's and TW of TW brought the white (?) labeled black bird to Munich. They all had their fans and admirers dropping in and out, - well, business as usual.
On the whole scale there was less novelties compared to last year and the side show at the Meridien Hotel in the city centre was a logistic declaration of bankrupt (it wasn't great last year at Fleming's either, but pure gold compared to 2010...).
Soundwise nothing really deserved to be mentioned - blame it to show room conditions, lack of interest, lack of abilities - pick either and you can not go wrong.
In most cases a mixture of all.
So - all in all, kind of disappointing.
With European regulations seriously nipping (snapping.... with brute jaws!) at High-end's heels I really wonder what we will see in 2011.
But the weather was fine the last 2 days .....

Audiofeil, agreed. Leopards won't change there spots - no matter how long you expose them to bright sun-light. We have no ugly duck to white majestic swan metamorphosis in high-end cartridges.
Then there are even a few cartridges out there ( mostly from former Pro Audio origin ) which do not need any break-in at all (which in Pro Audio would be a no-go anyway...) and perform their best right from the start.

Hiho, the Thales Simplicity looks surely exciting, but he is not new at all.
Look in the Garrard archives and you'll know why I didn't labeled the Sinplicity "new". Garrard had a similar looking tonearm - and quite similar too in technical design - at hand when John Lennon was still alive.
A common phenomenon - if a design isn't around for quite a while, it's return is often an all new invention for many.
We have had that in speakers and poweramplifiers in the last 2 decades with the resurrection of field-coil, horn speakers and SE-OPT amplifiers - all techniques from the late 1920ies which weren't used in custom applications aside from Cinema or special Pro-Audio since the 1960ies.

Hi Hiho, we have similar approaches to tonearm design. The Garrard Zero 100 could have been built in all details the way Micha Huber did it now. The materials, fine tooling - everything was there 30 years back. I guess it was more likely the overall approach and the missing care for detail which stopped the Zero 100 (... and a changing market ).
My reservations with either tonearm is the amount of bearings and moving parts involved in these designs. My reservations here are about energy transfer and the rigidity. But I will soon have the change to work with the Simplicity in person, - as I have already done with its big brother the Thales last November.
As for the Raven tonearm - whatever it sounds, my reservations were for the universal granted sonic laurels in advance. Before it was tested/auditioned. And then my question for unique design features or new solutions offered in this design were never answered.
I too don't blame others if its the sound only which matters to them - but how could they knew when they actually hadn't any chance to listen to the TW 10.5 yet?

Hi Jaspert, I have had the chance to listen to the TW 10.5 on two occasions. Both in private set-ups ( one on a Raven AC ) and with familiar cartridges (Titan i and UNIverse).
However - I do not think that anyone here would really appreciate my comment. Looking back in this thread and reading some of the posts here we can generally assume, that I have little clue and certainly are unable to appreciate or judge a great component anyway.
My prejudice was largely regarding the praise in advance - before any test or listening took place.
Did it sound good to me ?
It did not sound bad.
Pretty balanced, controlled, good and fast upper bass, nice integrated lower midrange. Good staging, not too detailed. Reproduction of height was a bit limited, but width and deep pretty good. I wished for a bit of more "air" and inner detail. This could be an issue of internal wiring maybe.
Bottom octave was not as good and fast as the upper bass - but then you rarely get that at all.
And hardly any speaker or woofer can show the picture.
It did however hold its own against a few other top-flight tonearms of today. But it did not outperform any of them either.

Hiho, no need to leave - we never actually had a discussion about the Raven TW tonearm here. Your questions and remarks regarding the M. Huber tonearms were about the only ones about tonearm design in this thread.

The Thales/Simplicity tonearms design do indeed focus on the zero tangential error. But to me it seems a bit like jumping out of the frying pan and straight into the fire.
So far my impression is that the mechanical (and therefor the sonic ...) trade-off for close to zero tangential tracking error is way too high. The increase in moving parts and bearings does heavily interfere with energy transfer and rigidity.

Yes, - how about someone opening up a thread about zero error pivot tonearms in general or the Thales principle tonearms in specific ?

Mcds, let me quote myself as of January 25th in this thread:

**** My new turntable? - I have sold 12 units of its forerunner (which wasn't much cheaper...) and have 3 blind orders already. So - no worries......

You will have a chance to hear it at the High-End 2011 in Munich.
However - you will see pictures and find it in 2-3 systems descriptions here on Audiogon a few months before.

So - rest assured - my big mouth is heavily at work already and since quite some time. *****

You see the date .. ?
Would it have been 2010, you wouldn't have missed it.
It would have been the talk and highlight of the show - at least for the analog audiophiles.