Dear Thuchan, of course you are right, but it was in fact never a real discussion. Would you volunteer to test the TW 10.5 ? Might be fun, as you certainly have a jolly good number of potential contenders ( regarding the price tag new and used as well as the claim for performance superiority) and certainly some space to mount the new white bird.
Even more so, as you do not belong in any "camp" and certainly aren't pained by jealousy regarding TWs "brand" success.
You have all the tools and experience and a set-up certainly capable showing any virtues or flaws. I know that a few of your cartridges will certainly find universal approval to serve in the 10.5".
So - that would shine some light on this dark stage. |
Dear Syntax, ... now who is Woodward, who's Bernstein ? Richard "tricky Dick" Nixon surely has no equivalent nor peer in Audio today. None has his brain and very special idea of ethics - not even me.
Very sorry to see that Dgad isn't really participating in this thread anymore.
He has so far provided quite some entertainment and I was anticipating more (maybe even some technical support for the new offspring his beloved audio-designer of choice - but I guess that hope was futile from the very beginning...) to come. |
Did some discover "Raven-gate"? |
Dgad & Dertonarm : you both are flying in two different planetary systems. No one ever will convince the other of its position anymore. So the discussion doesn´t lead to anything. Let´s wait until we have tested TW`s new arm and come back and discuss substantial experiences. |
Dertonarm,
And yes you studied marketing but you missed the course on ethics. |
Derblowhard,
As we say in English, jelousy gets you nowhere. Sorry you couldn't establish a brand or have continued demand for your turntable & designs. Good luck the 2nd time around. I wonder if you find a way to market your future products on their own merit and not by attacking a vendor directly. This truly sums up all of your posts. |
Tttt, sorry you are wrong. And so are your assumption of me "connive" at your comparing "similar design" tonearms.
I took the price tag as a call for quality and excellence - you took it as a qualifier.
Of course TW established a brand - this is his one and so far only remarkable contribution to the audio world.
But a brand isn't automatically leading to - nor defining - quality.
But maybe me concept of "quality" hasn't kept up with modern day view.
Just as a reminder - quality in its original sense of the word means neither "presence" nor "price tag" nor "brand".
It means quality - nothing else.
"Brand" BTW, isn't the same either as it used to be in the days before the foremost attention of all managers focussed on shareholder-value and the next quarterly report.
Brand today is as hollow as most marketing action.
And I studied marketing and graduated in.
A terrible business.
In your opinion no closer looking may be possible, - but it is.
Guess we both will agree, that it will make a hell of a difference whether Michael Schumacher drives a Formula 1 car or you take driver's seat.
Aside from the fact that he may be a bit faster than you, he furthermore will be able to tell the technicians some important information after the ride. How the car behaves in certain situations, where there might be some room for improvement - etc.
He will gather all that information and detect tiny details while driving his rounds. In the very same situation you might have a hard struggle keeping the F-1 car on the track at all and might be forced to focus all your senses on surviving the ride. In addition, you may not have too much knowledge to start with about Formula 1 racing car design (which indeed is one world more complex and demanding than audio design as a whole - let alone tonearm design).
When he and you stand in front of the F-1 car, just glancing at it, he most likely will see much more than you too. He too already might have a good idea about how the car might behave and how to drive it.
See the point ?
Of course this discussion doesn't "lead to a reasonable result".
It can't.
The position of the TW 10.5 isn't backed by any technical support - despite the fact that we had a lot of posts by its co-designer himself and his dear friend from the southern caribbean. But all these posts did not contain a single technical input, but concentrated on my person.
As said before - I am still waiting for technical facts to give the tonearm in question some good reason for its claim of superiority ... and its price tag. |
Deartonarm, I think you connive at my points in comparing tonearms which are already present on the market, having a similar design and quality like the 10.5. Remember that it was one of your remarks - the serious price tag. You doubt the quality and performace only by 'looking' at the product. Even though there are a lot of similar products with even more serious price tags and the same structural design. In my opinion no closer looking is possible.
If people only would buy the tonearm by brand (which one can think about different other brands too - this is classical consumer behaviour) then TW established a 'brand'. Quite remarkable, because you may not raise one morning and having a brand by fortune.
However, I don't think that the discussion leads to a reasonable result. There are too much unknown aspects, because we don't have the tonearm in front of 'us'. |
Dgad, yes - in fact a few of my articles have been translated into english (as a matter of fact - I wrote them in english...).
However they were publish in technical papers about IT security, quality control, precision tooling and the like for professional applications - much too complicated literature.
Very bad stuff when one is on coke and chips and with the air-condition fighting the caribbean heat.
I too had 1 or 2 articles in "the absolu!e sound" back in the mid-early 1990ies.
Those weren't that complicated. |
Tttt, fine.
If you look at the Breuer and TW 10.5 and don't see much difference that is certainly great for you and TW.
It is not about absolute judgement here - that concept is a purely religious one anyway.
It is about looking close, with sharp eyes, open mind and with knowledge.
Otherwise it is the classic scenery of the girl buying the specific car because of its color and because its a special series model labeled with "Cosmopolitan - the magazine" on its back side.
Furthermore it comes with a free sample of "Sex and the City" on blue-ray.
Those are certainly enough hard facts to justify the purchase.
After all - she can't go wrong with those features.
Testing a tonearm is a futile attempt for almost any audiophile and reviewer.
To digest the sonic signature and contribution/deduction of the specific tonearm under test, one must have a clear idea about what actually are those contributions/possible deductions direct relating to certain design features, mechanical parameters etc.
Next you have to keep all other parameters stable.
As most audiophiles struggle hard to keep their set-up on constant day-to-day level performance, we are talking an illusion from the beginning.
People will buy the TW 10.5 not because it "sounds" great, but because it is a TW tonearm and they already have a TW turntable and because they might get a really good package deal.
And that is perfectly fine - it is the way the market functions.
Most people do talk about performance, quality, listening tests and going for the "very best only".
But those are nothing more than standardized lip-services.
Most audiophiles indeed believe, that gathering real back-ground knowledge means regular reading of high-end magazines.
Oh my..... |
Well Dgad, again - sorry to see, but the best joke escaped your attention completely.
How about setting the 5th coke/energy drink aside for a moment (you know - sugar and phosphor in close reaction aren't good for your health, concentration and peace of mind) , calm down a bit, re-collect your mind and re-read some posts.
Then just think about the topic from a more remote point of view.
As a hypothesis, just take some of my posts as if they originated from someone else.
That will all in a sudden widen the perspective and horizon.
It might be a bit complicated in the beginning, but if you try real hard, you will get the points.
Take your time - there's no rush. |
|
Derblowhard the author but not an engineer,
Please escape from me & go to the German Forums. I am waiting. Otherwise there is no escape for your contradictions and your desire to incite a reaction to only gain attention to yourself. Keep blowing buddy. Maybe you will explode.
Your "superior" knowledge of what?
I am just going to have fun quoting you buddy. Keep it up & keep the CONTRADICTIONS coming.
"TW has bought the design of the 10.5 OEM from a german engineer to whom it was his first attempt as such and which was originally intended to serve as a kind of "inexpensive tonearm for all" on the major German forum AAA"
(Well we know this to be not true, but we will leave it alone)
"We are talking about the very first product of its kind launched to the market by a company which has never before made/designed/co-designed a tonearm"
Yet you mention the following,
"There is no secret knowledge needed to build a truly great tonearm - there is care to detail, an intensive and complete blue-book addressing all details, a clear concept free from marketing calls, an open-minded engineer who looked at everything which was made before and detected all the pros and cons of the various attempts of others"
So what should we believe. To design and manufacture a tonearm you need experience; (which you don't have) or not? I just don't get it. What are you the AUTHOR saying?
Your "superior" understanding might educate others in a different forum but not here. Please go educate them.
Any of your works ever get translated to English? |
Dertonarm,
a lot of information, but interesting though.
From the bare looking at the 10.5 it seems to me that it's a classical concept, but in means of precision and manufacturing there has been taken good care and looked at the details. Even when it doesn't fullfil your expectations of innovation. At least the 10.5 was made for customers and not for fullfilling the expectations of competitors - you may understand that.
I trust Mr. Woschnick to having looked at the details closely and having used his brain, too. Moreover he had the assitance of another engineer. At least he runs his company for some years.
The performace of the tonearm will be proven anyway and is the missing link by now. On the other hand, who shall be the 'absolute judge'?
Compared to the Breuer I don't see any difference in surface/manufacturing quality or conceptual differences.
I like the VTA adjustment of the TW arm.
Testing a tonearm (and any other piece of equipment) is always a compromise, because it is clearly a fact that the surroundings always differ from place to place. I'm with you in this aspect. Even though the relative difference will always be detectable, because the surrounding won't change at all.
I don't think that this is a claim to absoluteness. |
Tttt, the Wheaton/Triplanar does feature a cardanic bearing too - just like the Breuer, Ekos, TW and about 60% - 75% of todays tonearms.
You miss the point - the bearing concept has some influence on the sonic performance, but any bearing - knife edge, magnetic, gimbal, uni-pivot, air-bearing or mechanic - can yield excellent results.
It is about taking all the different issues into consideration and addressing them in a good designed tonearm.
The bearing is but just one of many different topics.
A good - even great - bearing can be bought from many tool-boxes OEM easily.
"Anyway, nobody will know better before listening himself" - well, thats the problem...... this is not the point at all.
Trying to judge a new tonearm now by its "sound" (whatever that is...) would imply in the very beginning, that the system set-up will be perfect (impossible...), the listening room likewise (not likely either ..) - simply all other factors beyond question and critic.
All you or any other testing the 10.5 can possibly find out whether its suits your particular taste at that point of experience in audio-listening and system set-up and under the given surrounding conditions of hardware, state of health, cartridge etc.
Thats why I am so amused about "sonic performance" as the ultimate point in the design of a purely (!) mechanical device.
Or let me put it in even shorter words:
... a perfect designed (in the mechanical/technical sense of the word) tonearm, addressing all issues in its concept will, as a direct consequence, produce the best possible "sound" with any cartridge suitable to work under the given conditions.
Why so ?
Because all the tonearm does, is to give the best possible working and guiding conditions to a cartridge.
The tonearm is nothing but the direct mechanical periphery to the cartridge at work.
The tonearm can only lessen the sound of the cartridge - it will never enhance it. All the tonearm can do - and none does - is to make no mistake.
And these are all matters of geometry, mass - dynamic and static, energy transmission and handling.
All plain simple physics - no Voodoo, no myth, no secret knowledge.
My "superior knowledge" in this case is just a matter of looking closely, using my brain and following mechanical rules.
There is no secret knowledge needed to build a truly great tonearm - there is care to detail, an intensive and complete blue-book addressing all details, a clear concept free from marketing calls, an open-minded engineer who looked at everything which was made before and detected all the pros and cons of the various attempts of others.
The Breuer Dynamic is a design which goes back to the days of (here we go again...) a Fidelity Research FR-66s.
It was quite expensive in the very early 1980ies and has more or less only hold its price tag ever since.
Its a delicate, in its early days sometimes fragile, design of today very nice craftsmanship, care and good attention to its details. It is very cartridge-sensitive too. That is to the mechanic energy emitted by the cartridge at work. |
Dertonarm,
Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.
I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. At least you are a professional manufacturer of analogue equipment.
And I am asking myself why a classical tonearm design concept, i.e. cardanic, could not have a similar or superior performance?
Anyway, nobody will know better before listening himself.
What about the 'Breuer Dynamic' which also has a similar price tag? |
Ttttt, what are the technical issues in tonearm design?
How about someone asking TW that question .....
Its about pivot tonearm design here in general and whether a new product tries to address some of the questions or maybe all.
The Linn Ekos SE does have a very serious price tag too - indeed.
However - I quit making any comment about any Linn product in he late 1980ies and won't break my rule. I will neither comment any Linn product nor do I communicate with any proud owner/admirer of Linn components.
But the answer lies in a direct - even an only visual one - glance to the two tonearms.
Both are of comparable "complexity" and both face and therefor should "address" - as any pivot tonearm should... - the very same technical issues and demands.
Now the core question arise whether those issues were actually detected and understood.
Thats where in our mother language "sich die Spreu vom Weizen trennt" - or that's the way the cookie crumbles....
To illustrate the point please look close at 2 long time contenders for top-tier in pivot tonearm design - both are around for more than 20 years now in their various versions and incarnations - the Graham and the Wheaton/Triplanar.
Their designers both tried from the very beginning to address several issues they had realized existed and were key steps on their way to create a great tonearm design. They both detected many other small issues and modified and evolved their designs over many years.
Getting better and better in a long struggle for optimizing.
Two tonearms I both had in various versions side by side with other great designs of the art.
I have great respect for both of them - I do prefer the Graham design due to its consequence in attention to detail and the Triplanar sadly lost its father due to the run of life all too early.
Both however were belonging to the handful of great pivot tonearms 20 years back and did hold their place ever since to this very day.
Why?
Because their designers tried hard and went new ways which to some extend were their very own.
Two very different approaches which both tried to took care about very similar questions in design, mechanic, energy transmission, force vectors and periphery.
Reading a comment like that the new tonearm in discussion here "is clearly superior to .." one or both of those proven designs, only shows to me that the author of those lines has either
a) no clue what he is talking about
b) a special way of hearing which is all his very own..
c) a very poor and limited set-up I do not want to learn about...
d) taken some funny - if very effective - pharmacy...
The co-designer of the 10.5 said in this thread he is looking forward to more lessons in analog from me.
I told him that there are enough lessons out there to learn from before asking for more.
There are great tonearms already out there.
Designs which stayed and survived the hardest and most painstaking test of all - the test of time.
All issues in pivot tonearm design have already been addressed - but never in one single component.
Some did succeed in many points - none in all.
Thats all my critic is about - if a new component is hailed like King Arthur's return to this sphere of existence (and with a price tag further announcing it...) I expect to see more than the picture of a white ? Raven on its bearing block cover. |
Dertonarm,
Just to get back to the market situation:
What are the technical issues in tonearm design?
What is your opinion to the very serious price tag of the Linn Ekos SE, which ? I picked this arm because of a comparable technical complexity, and therefore, as you argue, the same technical issues. |
What I am missing from all these dear critics of mine (my negativism, my inapprobiate sharp tone (sorry for hitting the right buttons - but I am an author by profession in real life) ... extent the list as you wish) is but a single technical support for the TW 10.5.
Tell me why this tonearm should deserve any laurels ahead.
Tell me about its innovative new design features.
Tell me about all the issues in pivot tonearm design which have been addressed here and haven't been so already elsewhere.
I am waiting.
Since a few days already.
All I get is "but if it sounds greater/better/superior than ..." from people who haven't even heard the 10.5 yet (nor do have - apparently - any small idea about technical issues in tonearm design).
So far a very plain and simple design not really correlating with its very serious price tag.
We are talking about the very first product of its kind launched to the market by a company which has never before made/designed/co-designed a tonearm.
For a brief period it may be fine exchanging comments about personal dislikes, but its a bit boring by now. Each of us know his/her personal disregard of the abilities/hearing/knowledge (extent list at your wish....) of some of the "others".
We have "friends of Charlotta" and "enemies of Charlotta" - fine.
And frankly - its even more boring if the others sense simply isn't capable of getting the joke.
Dgad, the best bonmot however is in fact escaping you totally......
So - any chance to discuss any prospective or theoretical technical greatness and singularity due to unique design features of the tonearm ( reminder: its about the TW 10.5...) discussed here ?
Or do you have the very same problem finding any? |
there is a rumor that Monty Phyton discovered, that they never made a movie about Audiophiles. Time is ready now...Based on the bad economics they want to use the Movie "Life of Brian" with a new title (Life of the Tonearm)with some changes in the text...(transfer to our modern time, Jehova will be replaced with FR-66s etc.....) |
Robm, if you're going to point a finger at TW that's fine.
So long as you point one at derblowhard as well.
But he and his flight attendant, syntax, get extra frequent flyer miles for chutzpah.
Now boarding, the Humility Express. Non-stop to Munich. |
True a thread filled with negativity does not help anyone BUT then when a manufacturers openly 'sells' and inserts their opinions as TW did earlier this also does not help. TW obviously has an agenda here, and although he wants us all to think it's about making audiophile friends it's NOT! It can't be - or am I be cynical? |
Syntax,
Stoning still exists in some parts of the world. Sadly to say. Funny how you advocate it.
On a side note: we spend ridiculous money for a tiny diamond at a tip of a cartridge. For the same money a nice size diamond can easily be purchased. No one has ever said there is sense in the price of Audio. All the metal of one of the better amps can purchase a nice Audio or BMW. Yet we audio fools buy equipment. Ultimately,it is about what is important to us as individuals. Difficult enough to create a new audiophile in todays environment. A thread filled with negative does nothing to help it. |
Thuchan,
Love your thread conveying your excitment and journey for your Continuum table. Amazing. It would be wrong of my to lump the few others here with you are any of your other fellow country men. Keep the thread going as it is a joy to ready and allows me to vicariously enjoy your journey. |
Dertonarm,
Before TW even knew you existed on this forum I found your sharp tone well beyond what is appropriate for this forum. Now that you divulge yourself as a manufacturer of some sort both in the past and the future, I find all your posts even more deceiving to say the least. I really don't need to say more. Of course no item from any German competitor will meet your muster. But to hide your agenda on this forum speaks for itself. To comment on design in your own thread is more than appropriate, but each and every TW thread indicates envy. |
Hi Downunder, several A'goners already asked me in PMs for pictures, but the former version is no longer in production and will soon see its revival in an all new design which will give very little reminder of its forerunner.
My former TT is pretty well known among seasoned audiophiles in Germany. And its granted with a much better image than its father. In its day it was the most expensive turntable on the market.
However - I will prepare some pictures and send to you by PM tomorrow.
It will give my big words a more solid foundation.
I do hold very high regards for the japanese fine tooling engineering of the late 1970ies/early 1980ies - it was their prime time and the quality and precision finds hardly any match today.
Furthermore - back then there were real engineers around to develop and execute the audio designs for the top-flight contenders. All this backed up by much more money and man-power than today.
Munich is always worth a trip - not just for the High-End show.
There are some really serious audiophiles around Munich (not so much in the city....) - and you can see and hear all the most expensive and elusive turntables and tonearms/cartridges on the market (well - Walker may be missing...) in a radius of 1 1/2 hour drive around Munich (some well known german analog A'goners live in this area). |
No problems Dertonarm. I'll let Dgad fend for himself, he is more than capable :-)
We are all here hopefully for our enjoyment of music first, and hifi as a vechicle for that enjoyment.
You are correct, the P3 & P10 are a steal and clearly show the Japanese, when they put all their considerable engineering expertise into something, the product can and is world class - even 30 years later.
They are a wonderful alternative sound to my Raven and the in built suspension isolates from any footfall etc.
Do you have any photo's, links to your previous turntable. I am sure everyone here would be interested in seeing them before your new table.
If I can make Munich, it would be wonderful. |
Hi Downunder, first of all - I want to apologize that I did address you in a batch together with Dgad.
That wasn't my intention and it slipped my attention this morning in my previous post.
So - my formal apology.
I usually do have serious regard for your set-up, taste and opinion.
Well - I don't have to see "in the flesh" a tonearm if it is presented in good pictures and with it's basic design features displayed and described.
It is a mechanical device I am very familiar with and which is fairly simple.
I can tell with most any turntable or tonearm the sound it will produce from its mere technical parameters and features.
I am selling the DaVinci 12" for a good friend on his behalf and - yes, its new retail price tag is in no way better in terms of value/input for money than the TW 10.5, - no doubt about that.
P10 & P3 - great buys. In fact - steals.
I am not into video, but its a nice idea.
It will however not come as free lunch, as I am used to get payment for my time and knowledge.
We'll see.
My new turntable? - I have sold 12 units of its forerunner (which wasn't much cheaper...) and have 3 blind orders already. So - no worries......
You will have a chance to hear it at the High-End 2011 in Munich.
However - you will see pictures and find it in 2-3 systems descriptions here on Audiogon a few months before.
So - rest assured - my big mouth is heavily at work already and since quite some time. |
Hi Detoham
TW has not activated any type of support from me. I just got a bit sick and tired of you and your fellow German cronies bitcthing and moaning over something you have not seen in the flesh, yet alone heard.
I have no intention currently to buy a TW tonearm, let alone have the opportunity to listen to one way down in Sydney. As I mentioned it is expensive and will need to be judged against other tonearms.
How does your 11k Davinci tonearm that you are selling rate for design issues and price tag?
I own a TW Raven turntable - WOW, big deal. It is a great sounding table no matter what you say.
I have also recently bought vintage Exclusive P10 & P3 turntables, for a lot less money than my Raven - so what - they are also very nice sounding. Am I now promoting Pioneer?
BTW, Can you please film a M Fremer type of video with detailed steps on how to correctly set up a Graham Phantom, as you clearly are the global expert. I am a mere consumer and music lover.
I am serious, as it would be good to learn more. You can then post on audiogon for the benefit of all of us.
How bout putting your big mouth to work now?
Me, I would luv to hear your new turntable that is 4-5 times more expensive than Black Knight - heck hopefully you will even sell one. |
Dear Thuchan, the problem is, that plain technical issues and critic not based on personal opinion or "but it sounds good to me" is not wanted, if the manufacturer want's to use a online forum as a free-of-charge marketing platform only.
What provokes my participation in this thread is the hype about a mediocre new product which is - from its mere design parameters and plain viewing less than optimal. Yet graced with a very serious price tag and the hail of the new king and conquerer. |
Dear Dgad, dear Downunder, you both are proud owners of TW's turntables and probably soon of his tonearm too.
Fine.
I don't think that I kind of loose some of my words, intentions or phrases by converting them into english.
My german is much sharper - no doubt, but I guess you have got me quite well.
Your reaction shows I am right.
Apparently TW has now activated some of his prime international supporters.
Fine again.
How can I criticise a component I haven't heard?
I have placed critic about design issues and a price tag were I can detect no faint correlation to material input, production effort or new features.
I know from the by now widely know design features of the 10.5 very well its virtues and flaws.
See - this is the very first product from a company which has so far only put some decent turntables to the market. I simply do not see any reason for giving this tonearm high praise.
It surely will sound great in your systems - of course, you bought/buy it and you already fall for the sound of TWs turntables.
That is great for you - fine for me and thanks god, not my problem.
Why I still dare even mentioning the FR-66s of decades gone by ?
Because it addressed and incorporated solves for issues in pivot tonearm design which the designers (and the vast majority of all tonearm designers in the past 30 years...) of the TW 10.5 - and most likely (at least so far...) the reviewers of the magazines testing it... - didn't even detected existing.
Try to build a FR-66s w/B-60 today - you will be shocked how expensive the were construction costs are (and I have the schematics for both....). About 4-5 times the production costs of the TW 10.5 w/base - even in a production run of 20-50 samples in a row.
Will or can the TW 10.5 "outperform" (a strange word indeed in this context...) a Phantom or Phantom II ?
Maybe if set up by TW or one of you......
If a Phantom or Phantom II is set up by me, it will show its virtues and I would be happy to demonstrate its superiority with todays top-flight cartridges.
Even on a TW turntable.
Give me 30 minutes with the Phantom II on any Raven with a good cartridge and I show you what good design can produce aside from marketing hype and supporter groups in online chats.
How about a shoot-out at the High-End 2010 ?
Would be a great chance for TW to proof that there are no guts behind my big mouth ....
good day mates..... |
How about a stoning? Dgad is seller of little stones, round stones, cornery stones and when the victim says"Fr-66s" the stoning will start. |
How can anyone openly criticise any particular product if one has not heard it.
Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy a TW tonearm or any other product. Whether or not it is good value is up to the potential purchaser to decide.
Personally it seems expensive, as it is more costly than say the excellent Phantom. However if it outperforms a Phantom it would be seen to be good value - no ?. It is certainly cheaper than the audio jewellery Da Vinci tonearms.
At least we have actual TW owners or interested owners sharing their excitment of a new product.
The attitude of some of our nice German collegues reeks of petty jealousy from my viewpoint.
cheers |
Hi Dgad, I do understand that Dertonarms position in this thread may provoke resistance. But where when not here can we discuss openly - with open vizor. In the magazines? I don`t think so. In the German Forums - perish this thought!
Critizising a concept or a product or a maker is fully ok as it is also fine that you love Thomas` products or I do this with Micros and so on. Dertonarm needs not to buy Thomas` tonearm as Thomas needs not to buy Dertonarms products.
But sending someone back to German Forums - do you know what you are intending to do, maybe not. You would see service troops running around praising their gods - why? Because they get a discount from the chorister. Would you like ending up like this? Hopefully not! Enjoy |
Dirtonarm,
I find it contradictory that you are advocating from TW as follows, "What I would have expected and would have liked to see in a tonearm asking $6k is something new, something unusual or at least something more creative."
Then again, you strongly promote the FR66 tonearm as one of the best of all time. Something that is a very old design. What are we supposed to believe based on your writings? That something using old and tried principles which I assume you have some commercial interest in is worth $6K. Is there any new version of the FR66. Or should be look to spend an inflated $6K for a very old FR66? Yet a new, warrantied item from TW which as you seem to claim is using very standard design (not the case but so be it) should not be worth the same amount.
I follow your agenda on this web site. I just feel it is about time you make it clear to others as we seem to not understand you so well.
Your wonderful use of English even escapes your fellow Germans in understanding. "Again - you have problems reading correctly". You have said something like this in more than one post. I would suggest that something is lost in your translation of German to English. Maybe you should return to the German Forums where you won't be misunderstood. |
Meeting in Munich is a nice idea, there is good food and nice bavarian girls with Dirndls. When we meet each other, there will be some German Audiophiles, too.
Don't be confused when you hear that I talk to them v-e-r-y slowly, some of them are close to deaf. But quite enthusiastic and we have always good discussions about the price tags. |
Curio, I quote:
"01-18-10: Curio
Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands. (Eps)
Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior."
From the above one could conjecture TW stating the superiority to the Breuer.
Therefore my interest in knowing how the TW10.5 is sonically superior to the Breuer. |
Hello Mr. Woschnik, well I guess you should digest and learn from all those lessons already out there first, before asking for more......
Right now its kind of asking for college tutorial when still struggling with elementary school routine.
There are many lessons out there for a tonearm designer who really wants to create something new and smart - one just have to have a remote interest to learn and to widen one's horizon.
Yes, I am familiar and had in personal use the Phantom and know the Phantom II from direct first hand impressions in a very familiar high class set-up with 3 top-flight current production LOMCs.
Again - you have problems reading correctly: "basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom" doesn't mean "same as..."
But if you look real close you could indeed learn a hell of a lot from Robert Grahams design. Many nice and some -at its point of introduction to the market- unique and highly innovative design features and some really smart solutions.
Something I would really like to see in your tonearm. |
Hello Mr.Brakemeier (Dertonarm)
Do ever had a Graham Phantom in use? Or has Bob changed his antiskating design?
I am looking forward for more lessons about analog.
Thomas |
Meeting in Munich in May ?!
Thichan - great idea !!
I am in for sure !
Now - TW should be at the High-End anyway.
All others should take the opportunity.
Munich is never as nice as in spring time.
Have a web?-camera with you and we can set up a nice discussion group regarding tonearm (and turntable....) design.
I would love to see this happen and would like to discuss tonearm (and turntable...) design with some of the "professional manufacturers" live and in person. |
To Perrew:
I wrote above : "Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior"
I sent and I got very few emails about TW Arm 10.5 with Thomas W. just about the supposed final price and availability time , since I'm going to buy a new arm for my Raven One.
During one of these few emails Thomas wrote me he compared his new Jewel with some other arms but he "never" wrote me a precise comparation with a certain arm , notably he never wrote about a comparison to the Breuer because I never mentioned the Breuer to him .. due to the fact the Breuer isn't in my wished short arms list.
So if you were refferring to my post .. you are confusing and muddling thoughts.
I have great respect for Thomas W. and I repeat I exchanged few thoughts with him but I never asked him for a precise comparation with xyz arm .. and he never replied a precise comparation with xyz arm.
As I wrote .. he claimed his arm is very good , since he compared with "some other great arms" , and he injected enthusiasm into the new creature , as obvious for a designer.
That's all!
Curio
|
Breuninger & Dgad - Peter´s idea is a wonderful idea. We would have so much fun. I would love going to Mexico again, I told Raul why. But why not meet in person at the High-End in Munich in May.
May isn´t a bad time in Munich with its wonderful beergardens in springtime. And on top of it we invite TW. He will provide everyone of us with a sample of its new tonearm to test it. How does this sound? TW agree?
My motto now: Go to Australia. Cool down ! |
Hi Perrew, a pivot tonearm can be both - static balanced as well as dynamic balanced.
The TW 10.5 is static balanced as are 99% of all tonearms. Dynamic balanced mode does need some specific design features regarding the bearing.
With the TW 10.5 with its gimbal bearing this would of course be possible, but the twin fathers of the TW 10.5 decided to go for the plain and much simpler approach of static balanced mode only.
One must remember, that giving a tonearm the option of dynamic balanced mode does not mean that it is impossible now to use it static balanced mode.
A dynamic balanced mode tonearm can (usually...) also be put in static mode only - if desired (Micro Seiki MAX and MA as well as SME V, FR-60 series etc.).
On the whole scale the 10.5 is a plain and straight forward gimbal bearing pivot tonearm with static balanced mode and medium mass and a geometry based on the IEC standard (which is suboptimal for older records from the late 1950ies to the late 1960ies).
What I am missing here is anything new or special. We do not see anything here - any real technical design feature - which hasn't been shown in previous designs of other manufacturers.
We see some cosmetic hints to the SME V, some to the new Ortofon, we see a - I believe good quality - gimbal bearing, fixed simple one-piece-counterweight on the same horizontal level as the bearing and an antiskating working with the basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom.
What I would have expected and would have liked to see in a tonearm asking $6k is something new, something unusual or at least something more creative.
I expect however that this tonearm will soon be revised and we will see a MK2 version by 2011. |
Curio Said it were your words, sorry for the confusion... (Perrew) Perrew .. you're really "confused" because I never wrote that!!! Please don't use my name and don't make my name saying thoughts I never had! Thanks! Curio |
01-18-10 Curio Said it were your words, sorry for the confusion. |
Hello Perrew,
please, no discussion about who is the best.
I am not the right person for that.
We have some nice Germans here in AudiogoN, they can tell you what is the best.
Thomas |
Hi Thomas i know you like the breuer therfore my question but if i understand correctly you chose a pivoted arm before a dynamic?
Tks |
Hello Perrew,
I am sorry but I don't give you a answer of your question. That is not fair to make comments of products from other manufactures. I sold a lot of Breuer arms together with the Raven TT, because it is a very good arm. I had it in use for my personal in the last 3 years.
Mr. Breuer a a great designer, a 100% respect from my side.
Thomas |
Ok, thanks for clarification, Thomas.
I got some emails from people, knowing that I'm a Raven owner, asking if I have the arm myself, have heard it, being interested in (assuming synergies with the Raven family) and so on.
I got the impression that only a few items were on the market, in hands of friends, reviewers, whoever.
But being in production and available in a short term should be good news for the "beggars". |
Hi Thomas can you describe what does this arm superior to the breuer? Tks |
