Hi Dgad, I do understand that Dertonarms position in this thread may provoke resistance. But where when not here can we discuss openly - with open vizor. In the magazines? I don`t think so. In the German Forums - perish this thought!
Critizising a concept or a product or a maker is fully ok as it is also fine that you love Thomas` products or I do this with Micros and so on. Dertonarm needs not to buy Thomas` tonearm as Thomas needs not to buy Dertonarms products.
But sending someone back to German Forums - do you know what you are intending to do, maybe not. You would see service troops running around praising their gods - why? Because they get a discount from the chorister. Would you like ending up like this? Hopefully not! Enjoy |
How can anyone openly criticise any particular product if one has not heard it.
Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy a TW tonearm or any other product. Whether or not it is good value is up to the potential purchaser to decide.
Personally it seems expensive, as it is more costly than say the excellent Phantom. However if it outperforms a Phantom it would be seen to be good value - no ?. It is certainly cheaper than the audio jewellery Da Vinci tonearms.
At least we have actual TW owners or interested owners sharing their excitment of a new product.
The attitude of some of our nice German collegues reeks of petty jealousy from my viewpoint.
cheers |
How about a stoning? Dgad is seller of little stones, round stones, cornery stones and when the victim says"Fr-66s" the stoning will start. |
Dear Dgad, dear Downunder, you both are proud owners of TW's turntables and probably soon of his tonearm too.
Fine.
I don't think that I kind of loose some of my words, intentions or phrases by converting them into english.
My german is much sharper - no doubt, but I guess you have got me quite well.
Your reaction shows I am right.
Apparently TW has now activated some of his prime international supporters.
Fine again.
How can I criticise a component I haven't heard?
I have placed critic about design issues and a price tag were I can detect no faint correlation to material input, production effort or new features.
I know from the by now widely know design features of the 10.5 very well its virtues and flaws.
See - this is the very first product from a company which has so far only put some decent turntables to the market. I simply do not see any reason for giving this tonearm high praise.
It surely will sound great in your systems - of course, you bought/buy it and you already fall for the sound of TWs turntables.
That is great for you - fine for me and thanks god, not my problem.
Why I still dare even mentioning the FR-66s of decades gone by ?
Because it addressed and incorporated solves for issues in pivot tonearm design which the designers (and the vast majority of all tonearm designers in the past 30 years...) of the TW 10.5 - and most likely (at least so far...) the reviewers of the magazines testing it... - didn't even detected existing.
Try to build a FR-66s w/B-60 today - you will be shocked how expensive the were construction costs are (and I have the schematics for both....). About 4-5 times the production costs of the TW 10.5 w/base - even in a production run of 20-50 samples in a row.
Will or can the TW 10.5 "outperform" (a strange word indeed in this context...) a Phantom or Phantom II ?
Maybe if set up by TW or one of you......
If a Phantom or Phantom II is set up by me, it will show its virtues and I would be happy to demonstrate its superiority with todays top-flight cartridges.
Even on a TW turntable.
Give me 30 minutes with the Phantom II on any Raven with a good cartridge and I show you what good design can produce aside from marketing hype and supporter groups in online chats.
How about a shoot-out at the High-End 2010 ?
Would be a great chance for TW to proof that there are no guts behind my big mouth ....
good day mates..... |
Dear Thuchan, the problem is, that plain technical issues and critic not based on personal opinion or "but it sounds good to me" is not wanted, if the manufacturer want's to use a online forum as a free-of-charge marketing platform only.
What provokes my participation in this thread is the hype about a mediocre new product which is - from its mere design parameters and plain viewing less than optimal. Yet graced with a very serious price tag and the hail of the new king and conquerer. |
Hi Detoham
TW has not activated any type of support from me. I just got a bit sick and tired of you and your fellow German cronies bitcthing and moaning over something you have not seen in the flesh, yet alone heard.
I have no intention currently to buy a TW tonearm, let alone have the opportunity to listen to one way down in Sydney. As I mentioned it is expensive and will need to be judged against other tonearms.
How does your 11k Davinci tonearm that you are selling rate for design issues and price tag?
I own a TW Raven turntable - WOW, big deal. It is a great sounding table no matter what you say.
I have also recently bought vintage Exclusive P10 & P3 turntables, for a lot less money than my Raven - so what - they are also very nice sounding. Am I now promoting Pioneer?
BTW, Can you please film a M Fremer type of video with detailed steps on how to correctly set up a Graham Phantom, as you clearly are the global expert. I am a mere consumer and music lover.
I am serious, as it would be good to learn more. You can then post on audiogon for the benefit of all of us.
How bout putting your big mouth to work now?
Me, I would luv to hear your new turntable that is 4-5 times more expensive than Black Knight - heck hopefully you will even sell one. |
Hi Downunder, first of all - I want to apologize that I did address you in a batch together with Dgad.
That wasn't my intention and it slipped my attention this morning in my previous post.
So - my formal apology.
I usually do have serious regard for your set-up, taste and opinion.
Well - I don't have to see "in the flesh" a tonearm if it is presented in good pictures and with it's basic design features displayed and described.
It is a mechanical device I am very familiar with and which is fairly simple.
I can tell with most any turntable or tonearm the sound it will produce from its mere technical parameters and features.
I am selling the DaVinci 12" for a good friend on his behalf and - yes, its new retail price tag is in no way better in terms of value/input for money than the TW 10.5, - no doubt about that.
P10 & P3 - great buys. In fact - steals.
I am not into video, but its a nice idea.
It will however not come as free lunch, as I am used to get payment for my time and knowledge.
We'll see.
My new turntable? - I have sold 12 units of its forerunner (which wasn't much cheaper...) and have 3 blind orders already. So - no worries......
You will have a chance to hear it at the High-End 2011 in Munich.
However - you will see pictures and find it in 2-3 systems descriptions here on Audiogon a few months before.
So - rest assured - my big mouth is heavily at work already and since quite some time. |
No problems Dertonarm. I'll let Dgad fend for himself, he is more than capable :-)
We are all here hopefully for our enjoyment of music first, and hifi as a vechicle for that enjoyment.
You are correct, the P3 & P10 are a steal and clearly show the Japanese, when they put all their considerable engineering expertise into something, the product can and is world class - even 30 years later.
They are a wonderful alternative sound to my Raven and the in built suspension isolates from any footfall etc.
Do you have any photo's, links to your previous turntable. I am sure everyone here would be interested in seeing them before your new table.
If I can make Munich, it would be wonderful. |
Hi Downunder, several A'goners already asked me in PMs for pictures, but the former version is no longer in production and will soon see its revival in an all new design which will give very little reminder of its forerunner.
My former TT is pretty well known among seasoned audiophiles in Germany. And its granted with a much better image than its father. In its day it was the most expensive turntable on the market.
However - I will prepare some pictures and send to you by PM tomorrow.
It will give my big words a more solid foundation.
I do hold very high regards for the japanese fine tooling engineering of the late 1970ies/early 1980ies - it was their prime time and the quality and precision finds hardly any match today.
Furthermore - back then there were real engineers around to develop and execute the audio designs for the top-flight contenders. All this backed up by much more money and man-power than today.
Munich is always worth a trip - not just for the High-End show.
There are some really serious audiophiles around Munich (not so much in the city....) - and you can see and hear all the most expensive and elusive turntables and tonearms/cartridges on the market (well - Walker may be missing...) in a radius of 1 1/2 hour drive around Munich (some well known german analog A'goners live in this area). |
Dertonarm,
Before TW even knew you existed on this forum I found your sharp tone well beyond what is appropriate for this forum. Now that you divulge yourself as a manufacturer of some sort both in the past and the future, I find all your posts even more deceiving to say the least. I really don't need to say more. Of course no item from any German competitor will meet your muster. But to hide your agenda on this forum speaks for itself. To comment on design in your own thread is more than appropriate, but each and every TW thread indicates envy. |
Thuchan,
Love your thread conveying your excitment and journey for your Continuum table. Amazing. It would be wrong of my to lump the few others here with you are any of your other fellow country men. Keep the thread going as it is a joy to ready and allows me to vicariously enjoy your journey. |
Syntax,
Stoning still exists in some parts of the world. Sadly to say. Funny how you advocate it.
On a side note: we spend ridiculous money for a tiny diamond at a tip of a cartridge. For the same money a nice size diamond can easily be purchased. No one has ever said there is sense in the price of Audio. All the metal of one of the better amps can purchase a nice Audio or BMW. Yet we audio fools buy equipment. Ultimately,it is about what is important to us as individuals. Difficult enough to create a new audiophile in todays environment. A thread filled with negative does nothing to help it. |
True a thread filled with negativity does not help anyone BUT then when a manufacturers openly 'sells' and inserts their opinions as TW did earlier this also does not help. TW obviously has an agenda here, and although he wants us all to think it's about making audiophile friends it's NOT! It can't be - or am I be cynical? |
Robm, if you're going to point a finger at TW that's fine.
So long as you point one at derblowhard as well.
But he and his flight attendant, syntax, get extra frequent flyer miles for chutzpah.
Now boarding, the Humility Express. Non-stop to Munich. |
there is a rumor that Monty Phyton discovered, that they never made a movie about Audiophiles. Time is ready now...Based on the bad economics they want to use the Movie "Life of Brian" with a new title (Life of the Tonearm)with some changes in the text...(transfer to our modern time, Jehova will be replaced with FR-66s etc.....) |
What I am missing from all these dear critics of mine (my negativism, my inapprobiate sharp tone (sorry for hitting the right buttons - but I am an author by profession in real life) ... extent the list as you wish) is but a single technical support for the TW 10.5.
Tell me why this tonearm should deserve any laurels ahead.
Tell me about its innovative new design features.
Tell me about all the issues in pivot tonearm design which have been addressed here and haven't been so already elsewhere.
I am waiting.
Since a few days already.
All I get is "but if it sounds greater/better/superior than ..." from people who haven't even heard the 10.5 yet (nor do have - apparently - any small idea about technical issues in tonearm design).
So far a very plain and simple design not really correlating with its very serious price tag.
We are talking about the very first product of its kind launched to the market by a company which has never before made/designed/co-designed a tonearm.
For a brief period it may be fine exchanging comments about personal dislikes, but its a bit boring by now. Each of us know his/her personal disregard of the abilities/hearing/knowledge (extent list at your wish....) of some of the "others".
We have "friends of Charlotta" and "enemies of Charlotta" - fine.
And frankly - its even more boring if the others sense simply isn't capable of getting the joke.
Dgad, the best bonmot however is in fact escaping you totally......
So - any chance to discuss any prospective or theoretical technical greatness and singularity due to unique design features of the tonearm ( reminder: its about the TW 10.5...) discussed here ?
Or do you have the very same problem finding any? |
Dertonarm,
Just to get back to the market situation:
What are the technical issues in tonearm design?
What is your opinion to the very serious price tag of the Linn Ekos SE, which ? I picked this arm because of a comparable technical complexity, and therefore, as you argue, the same technical issues. |
Ttttt, what are the technical issues in tonearm design?
How about someone asking TW that question .....
Its about pivot tonearm design here in general and whether a new product tries to address some of the questions or maybe all.
The Linn Ekos SE does have a very serious price tag too - indeed.
However - I quit making any comment about any Linn product in he late 1980ies and won't break my rule. I will neither comment any Linn product nor do I communicate with any proud owner/admirer of Linn components.
But the answer lies in a direct - even an only visual one - glance to the two tonearms.
Both are of comparable "complexity" and both face and therefor should "address" - as any pivot tonearm should... - the very same technical issues and demands.
Now the core question arise whether those issues were actually detected and understood.
Thats where in our mother language "sich die Spreu vom Weizen trennt" - or that's the way the cookie crumbles....
To illustrate the point please look close at 2 long time contenders for top-tier in pivot tonearm design - both are around for more than 20 years now in their various versions and incarnations - the Graham and the Wheaton/Triplanar.
Their designers both tried from the very beginning to address several issues they had realized existed and were key steps on their way to create a great tonearm design. They both detected many other small issues and modified and evolved their designs over many years.
Getting better and better in a long struggle for optimizing.
Two tonearms I both had in various versions side by side with other great designs of the art.
I have great respect for both of them - I do prefer the Graham design due to its consequence in attention to detail and the Triplanar sadly lost its father due to the run of life all too early.
Both however were belonging to the handful of great pivot tonearms 20 years back and did hold their place ever since to this very day.
Why?
Because their designers tried hard and went new ways which to some extend were their very own.
Two very different approaches which both tried to took care about very similar questions in design, mechanic, energy transmission, force vectors and periphery.
Reading a comment like that the new tonearm in discussion here "is clearly superior to .." one or both of those proven designs, only shows to me that the author of those lines has either
a) no clue what he is talking about
b) a special way of hearing which is all his very own..
c) a very poor and limited set-up I do not want to learn about...
d) taken some funny - if very effective - pharmacy...
The co-designer of the 10.5 said in this thread he is looking forward to more lessons in analog from me.
I told him that there are enough lessons out there to learn from before asking for more.
There are great tonearms already out there.
Designs which stayed and survived the hardest and most painstaking test of all - the test of time.
All issues in pivot tonearm design have already been addressed - but never in one single component.
Some did succeed in many points - none in all.
Thats all my critic is about - if a new component is hailed like King Arthur's return to this sphere of existence (and with a price tag further announcing it...) I expect to see more than the picture of a white ? Raven on its bearing block cover. |
Dertonarm,
Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.
I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. At least you are a professional manufacturer of analogue equipment.
And I am asking myself why a classical tonearm design concept, i.e. cardanic, could not have a similar or superior performance?
Anyway, nobody will know better before listening himself.
What about the 'Breuer Dynamic' which also has a similar price tag? |
Tttt, the Wheaton/Triplanar does feature a cardanic bearing too - just like the Breuer, Ekos, TW and about 60% - 75% of todays tonearms.
You miss the point - the bearing concept has some influence on the sonic performance, but any bearing - knife edge, magnetic, gimbal, uni-pivot, air-bearing or mechanic - can yield excellent results.
It is about taking all the different issues into consideration and addressing them in a good designed tonearm.
The bearing is but just one of many different topics.
A good - even great - bearing can be bought from many tool-boxes OEM easily.
"Anyway, nobody will know better before listening himself" - well, thats the problem...... this is not the point at all.
Trying to judge a new tonearm now by its "sound" (whatever that is...) would imply in the very beginning, that the system set-up will be perfect (impossible...), the listening room likewise (not likely either ..) - simply all other factors beyond question and critic.
All you or any other testing the 10.5 can possibly find out whether its suits your particular taste at that point of experience in audio-listening and system set-up and under the given surrounding conditions of hardware, state of health, cartridge etc.
Thats why I am so amused about "sonic performance" as the ultimate point in the design of a purely (!) mechanical device.
Or let me put it in even shorter words:
... a perfect designed (in the mechanical/technical sense of the word) tonearm, addressing all issues in its concept will, as a direct consequence, produce the best possible "sound" with any cartridge suitable to work under the given conditions.
Why so ?
Because all the tonearm does, is to give the best possible working and guiding conditions to a cartridge.
The tonearm is nothing but the direct mechanical periphery to the cartridge at work.
The tonearm can only lessen the sound of the cartridge - it will never enhance it. All the tonearm can do - and none does - is to make no mistake.
And these are all matters of geometry, mass - dynamic and static, energy transmission and handling.
All plain simple physics - no Voodoo, no myth, no secret knowledge.
My "superior knowledge" in this case is just a matter of looking closely, using my brain and following mechanical rules.
There is no secret knowledge needed to build a truly great tonearm - there is care to detail, an intensive and complete blue-book addressing all details, a clear concept free from marketing calls, an open-minded engineer who looked at everything which was made before and detected all the pros and cons of the various attempts of others.
The Breuer Dynamic is a design which goes back to the days of (here we go again...) a Fidelity Research FR-66s.
It was quite expensive in the very early 1980ies and has more or less only hold its price tag ever since.
Its a delicate, in its early days sometimes fragile, design of today very nice craftsmanship, care and good attention to its details. It is very cartridge-sensitive too. That is to the mechanic energy emitted by the cartridge at work. |
Dertonarm,
a lot of information, but interesting though.
From the bare looking at the 10.5 it seems to me that it's a classical concept, but in means of precision and manufacturing there has been taken good care and looked at the details. Even when it doesn't fullfil your expectations of innovation. At least the 10.5 was made for customers and not for fullfilling the expectations of competitors - you may understand that.
I trust Mr. Woschnick to having looked at the details closely and having used his brain, too. Moreover he had the assitance of another engineer. At least he runs his company for some years.
The performace of the tonearm will be proven anyway and is the missing link by now. On the other hand, who shall be the 'absolute judge'?
Compared to the Breuer I don't see any difference in surface/manufacturing quality or conceptual differences.
I like the VTA adjustment of the TW arm.
Testing a tonearm (and any other piece of equipment) is always a compromise, because it is clearly a fact that the surroundings always differ from place to place. I'm with you in this aspect. Even though the relative difference will always be detectable, because the surrounding won't change at all.
I don't think that this is a claim to absoluteness. |
Derblowhard the author but not an engineer,
Please escape from me & go to the German Forums. I am waiting. Otherwise there is no escape for your contradictions and your desire to incite a reaction to only gain attention to yourself. Keep blowing buddy. Maybe you will explode.
Your "superior" knowledge of what?
I am just going to have fun quoting you buddy. Keep it up & keep the CONTRADICTIONS coming.
"TW has bought the design of the 10.5 OEM from a german engineer to whom it was his first attempt as such and which was originally intended to serve as a kind of "inexpensive tonearm for all" on the major German forum AAA"
(Well we know this to be not true, but we will leave it alone)
"We are talking about the very first product of its kind launched to the market by a company which has never before made/designed/co-designed a tonearm"
Yet you mention the following,
"There is no secret knowledge needed to build a truly great tonearm - there is care to detail, an intensive and complete blue-book addressing all details, a clear concept free from marketing calls, an open-minded engineer who looked at everything which was made before and detected all the pros and cons of the various attempts of others"
So what should we believe. To design and manufacture a tonearm you need experience; (which you don't have) or not? I just don't get it. What are you the AUTHOR saying?
Your "superior" understanding might educate others in a different forum but not here. Please go educate them.
Any of your works ever get translated to English? |
|
Well Dgad, again - sorry to see, but the best joke escaped your attention completely.
How about setting the 5th coke/energy drink aside for a moment (you know - sugar and phosphor in close reaction aren't good for your health, concentration and peace of mind) , calm down a bit, re-collect your mind and re-read some posts.
Then just think about the topic from a more remote point of view.
As a hypothesis, just take some of my posts as if they originated from someone else.
That will all in a sudden widen the perspective and horizon.
It might be a bit complicated in the beginning, but if you try real hard, you will get the points.
Take your time - there's no rush. |
Tttt, fine.
If you look at the Breuer and TW 10.5 and don't see much difference that is certainly great for you and TW.
It is not about absolute judgement here - that concept is a purely religious one anyway.
It is about looking close, with sharp eyes, open mind and with knowledge.
Otherwise it is the classic scenery of the girl buying the specific car because of its color and because its a special series model labeled with "Cosmopolitan - the magazine" on its back side.
Furthermore it comes with a free sample of "Sex and the City" on blue-ray.
Those are certainly enough hard facts to justify the purchase.
After all - she can't go wrong with those features.
Testing a tonearm is a futile attempt for almost any audiophile and reviewer.
To digest the sonic signature and contribution/deduction of the specific tonearm under test, one must have a clear idea about what actually are those contributions/possible deductions direct relating to certain design features, mechanical parameters etc.
Next you have to keep all other parameters stable.
As most audiophiles struggle hard to keep their set-up on constant day-to-day level performance, we are talking an illusion from the beginning.
People will buy the TW 10.5 not because it "sounds" great, but because it is a TW tonearm and they already have a TW turntable and because they might get a really good package deal.
And that is perfectly fine - it is the way the market functions.
Most people do talk about performance, quality, listening tests and going for the "very best only".
But those are nothing more than standardized lip-services.
Most audiophiles indeed believe, that gathering real back-ground knowledge means regular reading of high-end magazines.
Oh my..... |
Dgad, yes - in fact a few of my articles have been translated into english (as a matter of fact - I wrote them in english...).
However they were publish in technical papers about IT security, quality control, precision tooling and the like for professional applications - much too complicated literature.
Very bad stuff when one is on coke and chips and with the air-condition fighting the caribbean heat.
I too had 1 or 2 articles in "the absolu!e sound" back in the mid-early 1990ies.
Those weren't that complicated. |
Deartonarm, I think you connive at my points in comparing tonearms which are already present on the market, having a similar design and quality like the 10.5. Remember that it was one of your remarks - the serious price tag. You doubt the quality and performace only by 'looking' at the product. Even though there are a lot of similar products with even more serious price tags and the same structural design. In my opinion no closer looking is possible.
If people only would buy the tonearm by brand (which one can think about different other brands too - this is classical consumer behaviour) then TW established a 'brand'. Quite remarkable, because you may not raise one morning and having a brand by fortune.
However, I don't think that the discussion leads to a reasonable result. There are too much unknown aspects, because we don't have the tonearm in front of 'us'. |
Tttt, sorry you are wrong. And so are your assumption of me "connive" at your comparing "similar design" tonearms.
I took the price tag as a call for quality and excellence - you took it as a qualifier.
Of course TW established a brand - this is his one and so far only remarkable contribution to the audio world.
But a brand isn't automatically leading to - nor defining - quality.
But maybe me concept of "quality" hasn't kept up with modern day view.
Just as a reminder - quality in its original sense of the word means neither "presence" nor "price tag" nor "brand".
It means quality - nothing else.
"Brand" BTW, isn't the same either as it used to be in the days before the foremost attention of all managers focussed on shareholder-value and the next quarterly report.
Brand today is as hollow as most marketing action.
And I studied marketing and graduated in.
A terrible business.
In your opinion no closer looking may be possible, - but it is.
Guess we both will agree, that it will make a hell of a difference whether Michael Schumacher drives a Formula 1 car or you take driver's seat.
Aside from the fact that he may be a bit faster than you, he furthermore will be able to tell the technicians some important information after the ride. How the car behaves in certain situations, where there might be some room for improvement - etc.
He will gather all that information and detect tiny details while driving his rounds. In the very same situation you might have a hard struggle keeping the F-1 car on the track at all and might be forced to focus all your senses on surviving the ride. In addition, you may not have too much knowledge to start with about Formula 1 racing car design (which indeed is one world more complex and demanding than audio design as a whole - let alone tonearm design).
When he and you stand in front of the F-1 car, just glancing at it, he most likely will see much more than you too. He too already might have a good idea about how the car might behave and how to drive it.
See the point ?
Of course this discussion doesn't "lead to a reasonable result".
It can't.
The position of the TW 10.5 isn't backed by any technical support - despite the fact that we had a lot of posts by its co-designer himself and his dear friend from the southern caribbean. But all these posts did not contain a single technical input, but concentrated on my person.
As said before - I am still waiting for technical facts to give the tonearm in question some good reason for its claim of superiority ... and its price tag. |
Derblowhard,
As we say in English, jelousy gets you nowhere. Sorry you couldn't establish a brand or have continued demand for your turntable & designs. Good luck the 2nd time around. I wonder if you find a way to market your future products on their own merit and not by attacking a vendor directly. This truly sums up all of your posts. |
Dertonarm,
And yes you studied marketing but you missed the course on ethics. |
Dgad & Dertonarm : you both are flying in two different planetary systems. No one ever will convince the other of its position anymore. So the discussion doesn´t lead to anything. Let´s wait until we have tested TW`s new arm and come back and discuss substantial experiences. |
Did some discover "Raven-gate"? |
Dear Syntax, ... now who is Woodward, who's Bernstein ? Richard "tricky Dick" Nixon surely has no equivalent nor peer in Audio today. None has his brain and very special idea of ethics - not even me.
Very sorry to see that Dgad isn't really participating in this thread anymore.
He has so far provided quite some entertainment and I was anticipating more (maybe even some technical support for the new offspring his beloved audio-designer of choice - but I guess that hope was futile from the very beginning...) to come. |
Dear Thuchan, of course you are right, but it was in fact never a real discussion. Would you volunteer to test the TW 10.5 ? Might be fun, as you certainly have a jolly good number of potential contenders ( regarding the price tag new and used as well as the claim for performance superiority) and certainly some space to mount the new white bird.
Even more so, as you do not belong in any "camp" and certainly aren't pained by jealousy regarding TWs "brand" success.
You have all the tools and experience and a set-up certainly capable showing any virtues or flaws. I know that a few of your cartridges will certainly find universal approval to serve in the 10.5".
So - that would shine some light on this dark stage. |
Dear Dertonarm,
sorry if it has been said from your side:
why shouldn't TW be able to build a top Tonarm without a predecessor? To my memory, which can be false, he did so with the Raven. |
Dear Difool, with the tonearm TW is the co-designer (according to his own words..). Of course a great component can be designed from scratch. There are proven designs out there testifying that it can happen.
TW's turntable aren't that good an example however, as they may be average, but certainly not "top" ( they may perform "better" in some set-ups compared to the units "tested" in those set-ups before, but that is a purely relative comparison, certainly not an absolute one ) - at least not from the point of view of seasoned audiophiles who trust their own ears and don't fall right away for the latest hype-review of an under-paid and over-rated audio reviewer with little experience.
TW missed out to address a hell of a lot of important design features of a truly great turntable in his Raven - as well as in his later offsprings.
The fact that neither his customers nor some of the reviewers did notice that, is only testifying one of the inherent rules of this crazy business.
See - my critic goes ( this point gets lost again and again during this thread, as none of the TW-supporters does really react to the technical/design issue ) against its claim for "superiority" and the instant labeling that the new 10.5 will be a top-tier tonearm.
Nothing is more easy in high-end today, then designing and building a top-tier tonearm.
It is a purely mechanical device of simple function and just about 2 handful of issues to watch and to take care of.
All you need is a good eye, concentrate use of at least one brain, a good blue-book and a clear idea of what you really want to achieve.
Shouldn't be too hard ....
As said before - ALL issues in pivot-tonearm-design have been addressed already. However they were never addressed so far in ONE single tonearm ever brought to the market (a few however came VERY close... one or two of them are still current production...).
All a designer has to do today, is to watch closely and have a deep analysis of the best tonearm designs out there. Then combining their virtues and eliminating and addressing the very few points left.
e' voila - the "perfect" tonearm.
But if I see a new design, which is sadly uninspired and misses out on a lot of those issues to be addressed no one can expect me to raise my hands in praise to the new conquering hero.
As said before - I am sure that the two co-designers of the 10.5 will see in the very near future the design points they missed and we will see a MK 2-version by 2011.
At least - I hope so. |
Nothing is more easy in high-end today, then designing and building a top-tier tonearm.
It is a purely mechanical device of simple function and just about 2 handful of issues to watch and to take care of. TW missed out to address a hell of a lot of important design features of a truly great turntable in his Raven - as well as in his later offsprings. Well Dertonarm, You've reverted to your pompous best again. Opinion masquerading as "fact"? Strange how there are dozens of us audiophiles here, who are aware that we have 'Opinions' and somehow the more we read and the more we learn, the less convinced we are that our 'Opinions' are necessarily correct or borne out by empirical evidence? You however have no such doubts! So let me respond to you in your own inimitable 'Derblowhard' fashion:- "Very little is known about the total dynamic forces acting on tonearms and those who reduce the problems to those of 'statics' and 'Euclidian geometry' simply display their ignorance. This was confirmed fairly emphatically when Mark Kelly exposed your ignorance of the dynamic forces and the equations involved in the acceleration and movement of the stylus within the record groove. Unfortunately your lack of education in physics and calculus make your assertions risible and embarrassing. But then again your listening experiences are simply lacking when you hear only the FR-64 and 66 and think it is the greatest and the Graham Phantom is the second greatest. Your little lapdog Syntax even writes love letters to Bob Graham about his arm yet the Phantom sounds like a 'stick' compared to the Copperhead with MM/MI cartridges and with LOMCs the DaVinci 12" Ref Grandezza beats it in all aspects. But you and your lapdog can't hear these things that we experienced audiophiles hear because lapdog has the Basis Debut turntable as his reference which, with its wobbly springs and acrylic plinth and platter has bloated loose bass, no soundstage and a total lack of treble presentation. But I've never heard a word of denigration from you about this irrelevant and misconceived product? Only the Raven cops it....endlessly....from you and your lapdog. There is obviously a history here where Thomas and you and lapdog have come to blows??? In any case we don't even know what turntable you are using because you are too scared to tell us for fear of derision nor do we know your amplification but we can glean that it is all tube based so you have lots of noise and no control of the lower octaves and are thus unable to hear the innermost details that a fine SS phonostage and linepreamp can provide. These facts are immutable but you are swayed by the overpaid theoreticians of old history tube circuits and prefer to shut your ears to the sound of real music. This is borne out by the fact that you and lapdog only listen to MC cartridges instead of MM/MI ones which produce the sound of real music that Raul, Lewm and I are easily able to hear but which escapes you and lapdog because of your blind following of the audio magazines and reviewers and lapdog's quest for more and more expensive equipment to remove himself further and further from the sound of real music." You see how it sounds Daniel? Not very nice. But I expect to read immediately an obtuse and supposedly humourous (but in reality unintelligible) parable or cartoon from herr lapdog? |
Dear Halcro, it sounds very nice.... what exactly did you say ?
Well - I do not want to disappoint you....
I didn't knew that you and TW are relatives and that I did deeply hurt your feelings by not labeling the Raven for its greatness and singular genius in design.
Too many audiophiles mistake components for beloved children - proving once again that all they care about the hardware only and that the "love for music" is carried like the cross of christ before them, but is only a hollow confession.
Is there an official promotion out there who gets the biggest discount for the best and most rude reply to me ?
In any case - it wasn't necessary to go to such length to tell me how right I am.
I fully understand that you do not want to learn and that you are fine with your set-up and the illusion of owning a system approaching the state of the art.
Absolutely no problem - certainly not mine.
BTW - neither you nor the other champs in that old thread you are referring to ever gave the topic a second ( a bit deeper ...) thought - did you?
You missed a chance.
Cheers,
D.
post scriptum: My set-up ? See it is boring explaining things when you know in advance that the other can't possible comprehend. But rest in peace - its tubes AND solid state......... its not about tube OR solid state, its about what you do and how. But that is a much more complicated subject than tonearms and turntables.
I could rip your set-up into pieces from what I see in your pictures and description alone. But - so what - you are happy with it and that is fine.
That your benchmarks are so much lower than mine is your fortune.
As I said much earlier in a lost thread - I too have some questions in audio, but I know I won't find any answers to my questions here.
I know I am hard to stomach for you and some others right now, but you would be surprised what a nice and sociable man I am in real life. I just react to something that provokes that reaction.
What I am still missing - is technical support for the 10.5. Isn't there any at all? |
If its TW IT MUST BE GREAT!! |
Dertonarm, where would audio be today if everyone took your approach of massive negative attacks on a new product that you have never heard.Yes, we can comment on engineering approach, but still no verdict can be reached until the arm is used in systems and we hear the music that is produced. After number ramblings that you posted here,I can only assume that you are trying to badmouth the upcoming TW arm release. Your motives seem very dark and suspicious to me. I hope that this was just a bad spell of some kind. You can be interesting and informative as I've seen in reading some of your other postings. Lets see more of that Dertonarm.
BTW, can you post pictures of your arm?
As to my agenda, I was just trying to see if there was any user information from Germany on this arm. In a word, No. That's ok, it just shows the product will be totally brand new. It may be wonderful or may need revisions only time will tell. Considering how well TW-Acustic has backed their other products in the US. Early adopters may try this arm on its promise and its backing they feel about from TW.
I'm waiting to read the several TW arm reviews. I'm not an early adopter. |
It's amazing that you guys bother discussing an issue with the almighty Dertonarm. From what I've read, he feels that a good tonearm is one that is technically superior. No need to listen as to how it sounds. Design one, hang it on the wall and admire it. Amen. |
Brilliant arguments shown on a thread lead to a loss of certainty by some of the participants I guess. When it comes to feelings they do start to express it changes the scene completely. But I do understand that attacking one´s system leads to dispute.
Brilliant arguments are only one part of the whole story, so Gerrym5 is right when stating why to push the button so often?
It makes me sad that some hangers-on use the opportunity to shoot their jammed ammunition.
It looks like a few of those gentlemen seem really wound up on the matter. They seem to lack a true life arena to express themselves in life. |
|
>>01-28-10: Dertonarm
I know I am hard to stomach for you and some others right now<<
Like a root canal without novacaine
>>but you would be surprised what a nice and sociable man I am in real life.<<
Provided you get a real life. |
Dertonarm: See it is boring explaining things when you know in advance that the other can't possible comprehend.
........ its not about tube OR solid state, its about what you do and how.
I could rip your set-up into pieces from what I see in your pictures and description alone. But - so what - you are happy with it and that is fine.
That your benchmarks are so much lower than mine is your fortune. Who am i to argue with a GOD ... I'm dropping this thread from my watch list... difool |
Ahh Der Lapdog speaketh as predicted. |
Audiofeil
so far you get the best quote on this now comedy thread :>)
"So long as you point one at derblowhard as well.
But he and his flight attendant, syntax, get extra frequent flyer miles for chutzpah.
Now boarding, the Humility Express. Non-stop to Munich."
I have not laughed so much in quite a while. have a laugh at this Aussie comedy classik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcTel8JcM7g&feature=related
Oh boy those German web sites must be a hoot!! |
"Unfortunately" both TW threads in the German forum have been closed now. The questions for technical design features based on the pricing created too much trouble there (without any comment from DerTonarm). Compared to that, the posts from DT are nice, friendly entertainment. Take it easy, there are more important problems out there. |
One only has to look at reality. Reality is not an abstract nor is it fantasy.
TW-Acustic has now over 10 years in reality creating some of the finest analogue products in the world. All over this planet earth, there are hundreds and hundreds of extremely happy TW-Acustic customers all of which are thankful and respectful for the products that TW-Acustic has brought them. This is reality, just as Thomas Woschnick's back ground in electrical engineering, his years of teaching electrical engineering and the fact that over 90% of all TW products are made in house at TW-Acustics in Herne Germany. What also is reality, most analogue manufacturer and more to the point of this thread, tone arm manufactures do not in fact make their own tone arms. Most and we are talking about the biggest and most renown names in tone arm companies job out the making of their own product. Let's put this another way, most tone arm companies do not make/manufacture their own tone arms. Once again, over 90% of the TW 10.5 arm is made by TW-Acustic at TW-Acustic in Herne Germany. This is fact and or reality. Now, to those who live in their own reality or as some would say fantasy (to be kind). These people have no connection to the real world, do not create, nor have any thing tangible to offer or bring to the market place. Their subjective offerings are purely abstractions, non truths, distortions and ultimately, lies. In the delusional world one can be greater than all, have an answer for everything and reign superior against history, fact and reality. In the real world, proof is transparent, it's there for all to see and touch and ultimately decide if it is something they would care to purchase. This is reality, all the rest is purely fantasy.
On a personal note, I would like to extend my warmest and sincerest gratitude to all the hundreds of TW-Acustic owners I have had the honor and privilege to know and work with over all these years. Your are the ultimate reality and we thank you most respectfully.
Jeffrey Catalano
High Water Sound |
Dear Adog (cave canem ??),
auctoritas audiophil, non veritas facit legem.....
or in more simple words from the bible: - cuius enim panem manduco, carmina canto....
in ultima ratio. |
