Thanks again for the valuable advice…. Yes, my room could certainly benefit from a bit of added treatment on the wall to the right of the listening position. But the problems with echoes/resonance don’t result in any detectable bass resonance. This is likely because of the fact that the room is open concept and therefore there are no corners of the room that are very near my speakers. Also, I have soft and very tall blinds covering a wall of windows behind my listening position.
I hate to bring it up because I’m sure this is a no-no, but I do have a flat-screen tv mounted to the wall between my speakers…. I angle it upwards to avoid reflecting sound directly towards the listening position, and am considering getting a light blanket to toss over it while listening to music.
Also good to know about the balanced interconnects; I would never have guessed that manufacturers include the connections for show only.
Finally, I agree it is not likely that I will have an issue with my TT between my speakers at moderate volumes especially. I just wanted to make sure I have a contingency plan in the event that the center placement didn’t work, otherwise the TT would be a waste. Thanks to everyone’s advice, I do have a contingency plan, although it will cost more if I need to go that route.
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Thanks again for the valuable advice…. Yes, my room could certainly benefit from a bit of address treatment on the wall to the right of the listening position. But the problems with echoes/resonance don’t result in any detectable bass resonance. This is likely because of the fact that the room is open concept and therefore there are no corners of the room that are very near my speakers. Also, I have soft and very tall blinds covering a wall of windows behind my listening position.
I hate to bring it up because I’m sure this is a no-no, but I do have a flat-screen tv mounted to the wall between my speakers…. I angle it upwards to avoid reflecting sound directly towards the listening position, and am considering getting a light blanket to toss over it while listening to music.
Also good to know about the balanced interconnects; I would never have guessed that manufacturers include the connections for show only.
Finally, I agree it is not likely that I will have an issue with my TT between my speakers at moderate volumes especially. I just wanted to make sure I have a contingency plan in the event that the center placement didn’t work, otherwise the TT would be a waste. Thanks to everyone’s advice, I do have a contingency plan, although it will cost more if I need to go that route.
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Dear @nyev : Each one of us room/system is way different and performs different too.
I don't read in the posts and you don't mentioned nothing about your room treatment if any.
Room treatment is critical an even the more important link in any audio system and one target in that room system is try to " tame " " perfectly the room bass system that's the frequency range that defines the overall system quality level performance. You have first than all take care on that issue.
" I should also say I only listen at moderate volumes. "
My TTs are between my subs/speakers and any one can " comes " to listen it say at 90db SPL and no one could detect any problem by the " air borne " or other trouble coming from the subs/speakers.
So, after take care on the room treatment issue go a head with what you have and put the TT in between the speakers. Rigth now you are distressing for nothing, stay calm and go a head.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Read the fine print. Many companies convey the suggestion that their circuit is balanced, when it ain’t necessarily so. XLR connectors do not necessarily indicate a balanced circuit inside. On the other hand, balanced is not necessary for your purposes. Nice to have but you can live without.
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Understood, thanks. I think a few I looked at appear to support balanced connections. One of them is the Linn Uphorik. I will ideally be testing a few to see which sounds best to me in my system.
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If you are planning to introduce an outboard standalone phono stage, as your last post suggests, then it too should be a balanced circuit internally, if you want to take advantage of a balanced connection to your amplifiers. Using XLR-terminated cables alone, vs RCA, will not help much.
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From my experience I know that even line level interconnects sound vastly inferior if too long….
That’s why IF my center placed turntable has an issue with that location and needed to be moved off to one side and further away, I will be using an XLR interconnect that will be needed to connect the phono stage to my amp’s balanced inputs.
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If you take the questionable advice of Elliot, to the effect that worrying about IC length is BS, at least be sure to purchase cables with the lowest capacitance possible. Capacitance, not "quality", should be the determining factor. I might suggest AntiCables as a company that makes very low capacitance, and good sounding, phono cables. Also, using balanced ICs is a waste of money unless the phono stage inside your integrated is also a balanced design.
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Thanks, and yes I think I will start with the TT connected beside my amp to see if I have any issue first.
I did a subjective vibration test using bass heavy tracks with the volume cranked (which I don’t do during normal listening), and testing for vibration and bass resonance at various locations. I did find that the outer sides of the speakers the bass and any vibration was far less noticeable than from in the middle between the speakers. My guess is that in the middle you have an additive effect to the low frequencies from both speakers, instead of just one on the outer sides of each speaker. So, I don’t think it is all psychological…
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Equipment in the middle effecting imaging? That’s really a visual issue to overcome.
It’s essentially ALL in your head, there are no sound waves in the middle.
Close your eyes, get the image of stuff in the middle out, there you have it.
Have a look at my last photo with the little christmas tree right in the middle. It’s not blocking any sound waves, it’s up to me to ignore what I see and go with what my brain puts together from any mix of l/r in/out of phase, timing tricks .... anything any engineer can come up with using zero center sound waves!
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You are overthinking it, anticipating rather than actually having a problem.
And here’s the kicker: what if the phono module you choose doesn’t sound great? They make a much larger audible difference than phono cable length.
I have 3 different length phono cables, to a SUT with it’s factory attached phono cable.
the longest 8lf din/rca one for my far left tonearm custom made for me by Pine Tree.
https://pinetreeaudio.com/
discuss your needs, pick your length and connectors, they will make it very promptly.
main arm, 1m ortofon, oh boy
the 3rd phono cable came with my Acos Lustre GST-801 tonearm, possible OEM or seller got it.
Despite all the BS about ’keep phono cables short’, I nor anyone else can hear the difference between any of them when I move them hither and thither.
I relocated my SUT, could shorten the 8lf one, I’m not gonna bother.
IF you go into a SUT (with PASS for MM), to a Phono Stage, then to a Preamp, then to an Amp you have 4 lengths of cables involved. It’s the phono stage that is going to determine the sound, not the cable length of any or all of them.
One of the reasons I do not like ports in speakers is so that I can put equipment between the speakers with no side or rear radiation.
have a peek at my turntable between my speakers
the isolation feet below my TT Plinth is to tame my springy wood floor’s flex, not any sound waves in that location, just enough to get 2 steps away after needle drop..
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@nyev
It's important not to obsess too much.
There's nothing wrong soundwise putting the TT between the speakers. Remember they have minimum output 90º to the sound axis, so this is actually an area of minimum interference from sound waves.
There's nothing wrong with an integrated amp either. It isn't necessary to run monoblocs so that the amps can be right behind the speakers - indeed the amps like to see a bit of load from speaker wires. Anyhow, if your speakers are 10 feet apart, and few are much more, then there will be only 5 foot runs of cable.
Connect the TT to the amp with short wires, this is essential. So put the amp under the TT. Although a wood stand can be heavy, whatever material floor you have it is worth having a lot more mass. My system stands on a support made of big pieces of marble and stone. All in all it must weigh nearly 1000 pounds. That won't vibrate or go anywhere. I have a concrete slab floor and the marble base is spiked to it.
I run my whole system balanced from cartridge to power amp. But with the layout I recommend above, you won't need 14 feet x2 of expensive interconnect, so no wait required.
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Okay, I’ve found a way to make the left side of my left speaker work for my turntable location (3 ft from speaker), and this is NOT a corner. Here’s my plan based on all of your feedback, to facilitate placement on the left side of my speakers:
- I will pick up a separate phono module
- I will pick up a 14 ft balanced interconnect to go to my Gryphon’s balanced inputs
From what everyone has said, it seems to me this setup WOULD be more ideal, albeit at an added cost. So my questions now, are:
- Phono module: What phono module to pair with a VPI Prime 21+?
- Phono power cord: Is yet another fancy power cord for the phono module warranted (I have AQ Hurricane source cables on my other source equipment including for the future VPI TT)?
- 14 ft Balanced interconnect: I’ve not had any experience with XLR cables before. How much does quality matter and do I need to go through the lengthy and intensive cable testing process I went through for my speaker cables, which was very worthwhile? Or does it matter less with XLR cables?
Thanks again All.
PS: Consider budget blown given the above. It's okay, just means I'll need to wait a bit.
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onhwy61 that is music to my ears and hopefully yes I am overanalyzing things, which actually come to think of it is a large part of this hobby which seldom yields results. Usually just a matter of trying things out, which is why I think I will just start with a Pro-ject Debut simply so I can be confident in the setup before I take the big plunge…
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You're over analyzing this. Place your turntable on a sturdy platform close to your integrated amp. If that means it's between the loudspeakers, then so be it. This is not the perfect solution, but it will give you wonderful sonic results. Just keep the equipment stands low to the floor.
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Another note, yes my stand for my Diablo’s is a heavy wood stand that is very low and very wide. It’s less than 1.5 ft tall not including the gear itself. I’ve always thought my imaging performance was good, but maybe it would be better without the stand there. Either way the gear is well below the mid drivers.
My room is also huge, as my house is open concept. Ceiling is vaulted and high as well, 12 ft at the peak. Room is about 900 sq feet, but the area my system is in has a tall island that acts as a partial wall on the left side. In other words the large room is broken up a it.
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One other thought I had was to first purchase a low end $1k Pro-ject turntable to experiment with the position between my speakers. If I’m lucky, maybe it simply isn’t an issue…. I can always sell the cheaper TT after.
of note, I have all other gear I’d need including some good AQ short interconnects and a Hurricane source for the TT which will go into my AQ 1800 conditioner.
Currently running a 2m pair of Clarus Crimson biwire cables to my speakers which are rather great for the money.
Maybe I should just do a test with an inexpensive TT first? I don’t want to spring for a very fancy VPI TT if it will sound like crap….
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Unfortunately, a corner is also not ideal. Bass tends to collect there. Mine is pretty close to the corner (big room though). I put a Silent Running Audio isolation platform under it and it is a very high quality sprung table, so it works.
I don’t know if you have done much experimentation with your front wall, and imaging. I would do some. Find something around the house to simulate the blockage.
If you don’t mind bending over… if you keep the table really low then that is probably the safest bet. Stuff only screws up imaging as high as it is. I recently pulled my amp further out in the room and put pillows behind it and this improved and deepened imaging. I guess monoblocks are best.. so you can locat next to the speakers… there are alway compromises.
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Thanks again All…. Would this be a possible solution:
I take out the easily removable phono card from my Diablo, and instead purchase an external module to go next to my turntable 3 ft to the right of my right speaker. Then the 8 ft interconnect would be a line level interconnect. That said, I should note that the turntable’s position would be approaching the front right corner of my room, if that is a bad thing…. Unfortunately the layout of my room only allows for these two positions.
That said, lewm notes this may not be any better than in the middle and yes I’d prefer not to have to spend thousands on 8ft interconnects…. Unless there is no other choice.
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I have done a fair amount of experimenting with stuff in the center between speakers. With dynamic speakers (as opposed to ribbon), you do not want a stack of stuff… it screws up the imaging. I had to locate my equipment off to the side… that and the addition of a thick wool wall hanging (see photos under my UserID)… made a huge performance difference. The soundstage now goes deep into the wall.
Also, you do not want to put long interconnect between the TT and Phonostage. Typically, as mentioned above you break between the preamp and amp. So with no choice… you’ll have to go with long speaker cables. This is hard because: 1) quality matters and 2) good long ones cost a lot of money.
If your floor is concrete locate the TT on a stand… or if it is more convenient or you have suspended floors use a wall shelf.
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I can agree that there is a tradeoff between having the table "too close" to speakers and long ICs, but the quality of the phono ICs makes very little difference if they are 8 feet long, as proposed. Or to put it a better way, quality per se is not going to make up for the extra long length. And in this case, having the table to one side or the other of a pair of speakers is not necessarily any better in terms of feedback potential than having it in between the speakers. We would need to know more about the radiation pattern of the speakers. Also, given the monetary constraints imposed on himself by the OP, it hardly seems likely he would want to pay for very expensive ICs.
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long intereconnects arent bad if you use good ones.
however placing any table too close to loudspeakers is much worse
Dave And Troy
Audio intellect nj
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Mijostyn is correct, in my opinion. In these situations you want the shortest ICs between the cartridge and phono, and the longest ICs between the linestage and the amplifier. The amplifier should be situated as close as possible to the speakers, so you can use short speaker cables. That’s the ideal set-up. Since your phono, line, and amplifier are all on one chassis, you’d be best off with the electronics and the TT in between the speakers. At least that allows you to use the shortest possible ICs between TT and phono input, based on your description. But that’s very bad for acoustic feedback possibly affecting your phono signal. There’s no good answer, and even a Minus K is not going to protect the cartridge from airborne acoustic feedback. See what you can find out about the radiation pattern of your B&W speakers. With dipole speakers (which yours are not), your situation would be a little more tenable, since dipoles do not radiate much to the side. Perhaps with knowledge of the radiation pattern of the B&Ws you can locate a space fore or aft of the baffle that is less subject to speaker SPLs. But I would not opt for the choice to put the TT to one side or the other of the speakers, because that apparently would require 8 ft phono cables, a no-no in my book for any purist. And placing everything to one side also will require longer speaker cables, another disadvantage.
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Thanks for the advice all. Will look into the MinusK platform…
Totally get the appeal of looking at empty space between the speakers. But I also like looking at my Diablo 300 in that spot too! The turntable will add to that however.
Regarding separates, for the equivalent price of my Diablo, I demoed many separate components at home and couldn’t find anything that would come close to the Diablo’s sound, and in fact I couldn’t even find any pre/power amps I could be happy with. I’m sure that issue could be solved with more money however!
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Frankly, I dont think you need worry too much about either placement. That said, between the two speakers is neither the quietest nor the best looking place for a piece of gear. OTOH, the long TT lead IC will slightly affect the loading parametres, but the Gryphon phono does offer some adjustments, so I wouldn't worry about that either.
In my case I much preferred my TT comfortably placed to the right of the right speaker, against the side wall. Mind you, I had a standalone phono, so the TT-phono connection was shorter than yours.
I also like looking at the open space between the two speakers -- but that's just me.
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@nyev You have run into the fundamental problem with using an integrated amp. Ideally your power amps would be behind the speakers with the shortest possible speaker cables running long balanced cables to the preamp which can be 50 feet away, the turntable nearby with very short tonearm cables. Long tonearm cables are not an option. Long unbalanced cables is also not a good option. I am afraid you are stuck keeping the turntable right next to your integrated. A wall shelf may or may not be better. It depends on what vibrates more, the wall or the floor. Unless you have footfall problems you are probably better off on the floor. You should also consider an isolation platform like the MinusK or a turntable with an isolation suspension.
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I have a Target wall shelf for my Jr. that is between my speakers and I do not have a problem. Checkout the photos on my profile page.
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