Tthean , Thank you for sharing your thoughts and words |
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Grannyring: Usually I value your perspective but in this case I can't dissagree with you more. These guys here beat the hell out of me, I move forward with efforts to resolve my last problem (you know be part of the solution and all) and you complain about that's adding fuel to the fire? |
Gallant_diva, I'll address the statements from you/Paul when I get home this weekend. If I can find them, I'll pull the two shipping receipts with Paul's Fedex number so we can put that one to bed. "Happy Christmas"? I'm sure I did not say that but I'll try to get to the bottom of that lie as well.
So are you the next TRL attack dog coming after me? Let me say this again. I have chosen not to work with TRL going forward. I made that decision a long time ago for the reasons already stated. I want nothing and expect nothing from them. So take your spin and talking points somewhere else please. |
Aman Goldeneraguy!
I sent my regard to the owner of Amtrans in Tokyo immediately after the earthquake/tsunami, whom I purchased parts from for most of my projects. I finally got a reply from him 3 days later. (Normally he replied me immediately or within 6-8 hours, the latest.) I took the liberty to share the email with all of you:
On Mar 14, 2011, at 02:16 AM, togashi wrote:
> Dear Mr.TThean
>
> Thank you very much for your kind email.
> We Japanese thank for a rescue party from USA.
>
> My family and I are OK.
>
> It was hugest earthquake I've ever had
> And I have learned Tsunami is more horrible than earthquake.
> Even now, earthquake is continuing...
>
> Though nuclear power plants in Japan are out of order, it doesn't make big trouble, I believe.
> Now, I wish a peace of the world.
>
> Best Regards,
> Togashi
(At that time, the nuclear plants were still under control.)
I feel that the Japanese are a very grateful people. He is just a normal citizen and not any ranking government official, but the first thing that came out of his mind was to represent his country to thanks us for the help. This make me so proud of our country, and especially to the military. We should be thankful everyday for our lives and families that we have in this country. Yes, we should also remember the people in Japan in our pray as they are recovering from this tragedy. God bless America... |
I sincerely hope all is well with the Shindo family after the devastation in Japan.Something like this makes you think of whats really important. |
Well said Bill.
4musica44107, you beat me to it. LOL. I wish my answer was yes. I would live to hear a Shindo rig. Any owners in Charlotte NC?
Gallant, I believe Tthean is in Dallas and I told him to contact either you or Huy. Any Shindo owners in Dallas, Vinyljh? |
Yes, Bill IMO is a good TRL ambassador. His is the voice (most times lone voice) of reason. I may not always agree with him on subjective opinions, preferences, etc., but there is no doubt what he is after in his system, has worked diligently to attain it, and he manages his convictions in these forums professionally. |
Grannyring,
Your reply is reasonable and thoughtful, far better than the nonsense from Glory and Gallant diva. I hope Cdente and TRL can settle this soon with mutual satisfaction.
Take Care, |
Hey-Diva,I think it should be you that drops out of this forum due to your nonsensical posts.
You have lost all credibility.
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Getting back to the OP's original questions, in particular - "Better yet, has anybody compared them side by side before?" - has anyone made a side by side comparison of the Dude and a Shindo preamp, and are you willing to share what you heard? |
My Dude was made in the same time period as Cdente's. It seems to me all of this is a matter of perspective and chosen attitude. My experience mirrors the host of others with TRL and that has been a very positive one. No matter what others say about their wonderful direct experiences with TRL, Cdente has set his attitude and has decided on a chosen perspective. We cannot and should not try to change him. We are all responsible for our own attitudes and chosen filters on lifes experiences.
It is easy to see how a situation like this arises. It is easy to understand how folks can have complete opposite opinions of the same situation. Rather then argue and get angry, perhaps it is better to just accept and move on. Lets consider the contributing forces that all came together and how two people can choose to react differently based on their chosen perception filter.
- My Dude, like Charlies , has a back panel that is slightly oversized and sticks out a little at the bottom of the unit. It looks fine and the cuts are straight a neat, but the panel runs slightly lower then the bottom of the unit. Cant see it from the front or sides really, and without any footers it can scratch the stand it is on.
For me this is a 100% non-issue and I never even thought about it as it looks fine and I put footers underneath it. For Charlie, it is an issue that seems to override the more positive aspects of the Dude we will get into. Again, this seems to be a matter of chosen perspective. In my review I mentioned the fit and finish of the Dude was DIY like and to buy the unit for its sound. The current Dude has stunning fit and finish as an FYI. It also costs more now. The first Dudes were priced at $3,200-$3,400, not $3,800.
The cover issue seems very slight also based on comments on this thread. Now, if the top is bent ½ an inch to close properly, then this is indeed a matter of more importance. Seems the bend is very slight however. Again this is a matter of perspective and expectations. No big deal for one and causing anger in another. The next consideration will put this into perspective.
- For $3200 - $3400 the Dude sounds better then every single preamp I have ever heard next to it by a nice margin also. It has bested preamps that sell for up to $30,000 . This $3400 preamp embarrasses other well reviewed pieces from well respected builders when it comes to the sound. What is this worth? Does this mean owners of preamps not sounding as good, that they paid $7,000 or $12,000 for, should be angered and up in arms? Should they post not to buy from these other companies because the sound disappoints vs. the Dude and the Dude costs thousands less? The value in the Dude is in the sound for me and others. Yes, the new Dude now has stunning case work, but mine and Charlies were not furniture grade. How one perceives value is the filter one will choose to judge a product. People differ. Rather then judge other peoples filters, make your own determination and move on.
- Now we come to the issue of ground noise. The very reason the Dude was sent back to TRL. No problem was found at the builder when sent back. The noise was not recreated in another system or on the bench. Well seasoned Aphiles know grounding issues pop up with changes in a system and are hard to cure sometimes. I know this from experience. A new amp causes a hum that is not recreated in my friends system. System synergy/compatibility etc. all can cause problems.
Compounding the issue is the fact that during shipping, and we all know how gentle our prized gear is treated, wires became unhooked etc. causing another issue for the owner. Who know what else happened during shipping including causing a cap failure and on and on
The builder works with Charlie to fix and the Dude is up and running again. The owner still notices the same grounding noise. Now the owner is very frustrated and with good reason. What or who is the cause for this frustrating situation? How we choose to look at it will determine how we move forward. We own our own attitudes.
This is where ones perspective or filter really comes into play. If one chooses to think the Dude is not a great value because of the back plate overhang, stubborn ground noise, shipping damage, not fitted with NOS tubes, frustrating situation etc.. then so be it and he is welcome to that opinion. However we must understand that once we view another party as evil or having bad intentions, then the chance for real communication and contentment is lost. Hard to move forward with someone you feel is against you.
Over time I think this has happened with this situation, to bad really. I now read about the tubes not being what he wanted and this shows me the situation has reach the point of non-communication and anger. Do we expect the Dude to be shipped with NOSs ? Are we looking under every rock to support our growing anger or do we have a spirit of working together and resolving?
Unfortunately a third party looking at the unit will not help with the real problem at hand. That problem has to do with attitude and perspective. No doubt a third party will only add fuel to the fire if one is intent on finding fault and is beyond wanting to communicate with the other party. More and more reasons supporting the anger will crop up when stuck in this mode.
In the end we own our own attitudes and filters and whether this leads to anger or peace. Agoners can continue to jump on and take sides, but it is all noise really. It seems to me many factors have come together causing a frustrating situation and we all choose how to filter these fac |
Clio09 says:
"if he sent the unit back........"
yes, if he did. Paul says he did not send it twice.
Clio09 says: "......he must have been in some communication"
Puals say the last communication from him was "happy christmas and the preamp is fine"
Clio09 says "How is it they are not able to respond?"
I do not know. Do they? do they not? How do we verify whatever is said by one party as truth? In any court of law or any other environment unless we get both sides of the story we cannot take sides. And I am not take sides but mnay be there is the other side of the coin.
Clio09 says "I don't see why one person's criticism has caused this much bickering"
Just like my asking if he communicated and how do we verify has caused several guys' hormonal imblanance.
I stop here. Now all of you restless souls go figure. |
Gallant diva,
There`s nothing wrong with us "guys" we`re outside observers reading an open forum thread involving one man`s experience with a manufactuer`s product, nothing more or less. You have no personal involvementin this matterfrom what I can tell.What authority do you have to tell another poster to keep quiet? you`re coming across as rather immature and silly. |
Ish, if he sent the unit back to TRL twice already he must have been in some communication with them. Now whether or not he has been in communication lately I do not know. As I said in a previous post maybe he is just frustrated to the point where he doesn't feel it is worth it. Does he have just cause to feel that way? It appears from his side of the story that is the case. However, as you noted and I agree, that is just one side of it.
You stated in a previous thread the other party is not able to respond. How is it they are not able to respond? Its pretty easy to register and post comments here. So why doesn't the other party state their side of the story? You seem to be pretty close to TRL (even have Paul pictured with your amps on your system page) so maybe you should encourage them to contribute their version of the events. Of course the other party doesn't have to explain their side if they don't want to, which makes it a bit unfair to attack someone who is just stating their experience.
You think TRL is the only manufacturer to come under criticism on these forums? Seems like it happens weekly and in some cases with some well known manufacturers wearing the target. No one has a 100% satisfied customer base. I don't see why one person's criticism has caused this much bickering and threads/posts to be deleted.
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Goldeneraguy
"Hey,Diva_ with your reply you are certainly are acting like one."
Say somethinh that is intectually inspiring.
"I have no beef and am not a sympathizer."
ok, then keep quite. |
Listen up dudes chares1dad and others: I was asking did he try to communicate these problems with TRL and also I am saying how do we verify the allegations without th eother party being present here to give their side of the story. What is wrong with your guys? |
Well said Knghifi, the more I follow this thread it seems Cdente is making a very strong case for himself. He has returned the unit TWICE! to TRL without resolution, would a third time be a charm? Why would TRL build his Dude with ill fitting panels in the first place?Do they check these units prior to shipment? Again why no solution after 9 months! And others have had ground/hum issues also, something just seems odd. Glory and Agear oblviously feel the need to defend TRL based on their own positive experiences with the Dude. What does TRL have to say on their behave? It appears Cdente has every reason to voice his complaints. |
Hey,Diva_ with your reply you are certainly are acting like one.
I have no beef and am not a sympathizer.From reading the posts I had a question.Your reply is way off base.
Kinghifi is right on with his 3-22 post.
What is your reply to that. |
Cdente is aware of the implications in sharing his experiences with the forum/internet. It's uncomfortable for him but has exhausted all his options to remedy the issues with the company and felt it's important to share his experiences with future potential customers.
Gallant_diva, if the quality problems are minor for a $3800 component, are you willing to swap Dudes with Cdente? I bet you will be singing a different tune. You have to respect someone for having a different expectation in a purchase. It's between them and the company ... This is an open forum and the company has the option to offer their side of the story. |
cdente: Most of the time it is communication. I just wonder of you tried communicating with TRL. The danger of this beast called the Internet is that anyone can jump to the keybaord and start claiming to be victim (and 3-4 sympathizer will always start join the bash, it is so amazing). But without haring the other side, no conclusion can be drawn. |
goldeneraguy: I will say it once: I am not attacking anyone. So hold your guns. |
I'm going to get a measurements all the original tubes provided by TRL that I pulled just for a sanity check. The original output tubes were a disappointment rather than problems and TRL did provide me with a second pair early on in the debugging process. |
Look at my original post on this thread. That was my objective here. Mission accomplished. If you would read the post you can answer your own question on my plan to solve my remaining problem with the Dude. TRL took two cracks at attempting fixing it. Guess its not that easy after all. |
It seems that there are three very happy Dude owners.I wonder why they attack another owner that is not happy with the fit and finish of the unit he received.
If the unit cant be closed and new tubes are defective why weren't these things corrected by TRL. |
I cannot take a guess because without the other party being able to repond there is no way to determine who is right and wrong. How is the other party not able to respond? |
cdente:
I cannot take a guess because without the other party being able to repond there is no way to determine who is right and wrong. The problems that you mentioned do not sound too serious to me. The grounding problem is very common and can be fixed easily. The tube could be just bad luck, additional costs to ship and additional cost to fix are obviously going to incur if you showed it to someone else. You seemed to be pissed. So what is the objective here? Bash TRL or find a solution?
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Yes let me put the quality part of it in monetary context for you:
- A chassis that is fd up (back plate they used was too large, a top cover that I cant be tighten down due to a cap that's too tall to fit inside. Take a guess as to what that will do to resell value in my case!
- A ground problem (calling it that for now)
- Additional cost to replace the output stage tubes (the one that came with it were cheap, warn-out junk)
- Additional cost to ship and have a third party assess the problem
- Additional cost to fix (unknown at this point)
That's what "inherent value" means in my case. And they had absolutely no problem selling me the unit in this condition and making it worse in some cases along the way. There in lies by real beef with them. |
"Quality and customer service on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. "
Well, I have had the best customer support from TRL. So like everything else, there are all kinds of customers and their satisfaction level but if you work with TRL people they can help you I am sure. |
That's good Charlie. I hope you will finally have some resolution to this. It will put your mind at ease. Please let us know what happens.
And NO, for the last time, I am not on the payroll. I am a surgeon. I don't need to moonlight as an audio dealer/distributor. LOL. The only reason I know any details in regards to this sordid little saga is that I am friends with the Weitzels and speak with them regularly. We talk about a lot of things ranging well beyond audio. I choose to support them because I choose to support them as does Glory/Gallant/Grannyring, etc.
My wife gets angry when she sees Audiogon yellow on the computer screen and says I am being distracted far too often by audio. Time for me to sign off.
Ciao.... |
Best sounding preamp I have ever heard - even with last nagging issue to resolve. Quality and customer service on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. |
I have a Dude and TRL is currently making me an OTL amp.
The Dude pre amp has been a positive ride for me and I am not on the TRL payroll LOL.
I hope the OP gets to hear one. He will piss his pants in laughter when he hears how great it sounds. Right Chuck? Come on now I know you can say something positive about the sound.
Agear and Granny got my attention with their praise of the Dude and I bought it with their help. |
This is strange indeed. Cdente has a complaint with TRL going bach 9 months! that`s apparently unresolved. Cdente is understandably displeased. What`s a mystery is Agear and Glory`s role/interest if they`re not connected with TRL. Is it possible that Cdente had a bad experience with TRL even though Agear and Glory hav`nt? |
We are for you chuck and hope you can get through this |
It's getting shipped on Friday to a third party for assessment. Just got off the phone with them. Keep you posted on the results. |
Cdente: I am more interested in the comparison of the sound. Have you done that? By the way, many people have had excellent experience with TRL. It seems like you may have had an isolated incident. But my moto is "be a part of the solution not part of the problem" why not try to work out on the problem and fina simple solution? |
So you have access to TRL order systems and sales numbers? And you are just and end user. Right. I wish TRL the best and hope for the sake of other potential buyers that my unit quality and service experience is not the norm. |
It is a shame it has to happen in this manner, and it actually makes you look bad Charlie. Orders are continuing to come in despite your best attempts. Please let us know what is actually wrong with your pre-amp when that is diagnosed.
At this time, TRL's current product stands for itself and the witness of its inherent value will continue to unfold regardless of bitter naysayers. It is probably one of the best pre-amps under 30K, and if you are frustrated with mediocre sound and overpriced gear, give it a whirl.... |
Goldeneraguy, the problems with my Dude were identified long before I move to EP speaker platform. I still have most of those same components in the mix today. That system iteration consisted of the following:
Bel Canto CD-2
Audio Horizons Tube DAC 3.0
TRL Dude
Bel Canto Ref1000 monoblocks
Audio Horizons and Harmonic technology IC's
Acoustic Zen Speaker cables
I'm not frustrated with my situation but rather not being allowed to share an experience with others on this site. Having to fend off members like Agear and Glory openly only makes TRL look bad IMHO and there are some really good things to say about the sound of this product.
Never interfered with their right to share experiences about any product or service on this site. I lots of really nice members contacting me behinds the scenes sharing information and experiences. Shame it has to happen in this manner.
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Thank you for the clarifacation |
Yes Charlie, others have had problems with ground loop or buzz. 4/5 (excluding you at this point) were related to associated equipment and/or cables. You are going to look pretty stupid if after all the flamethrowing online it turns out to be something else.
Again, take the Dude to a friends rig. See if the phenomenon is transferrable. Try different cabling. Have a third party examine it. By all means. |
Goldeneraguy, no, just an end user who has paid full price for all the gear I own. That's a fair question.
I wouldn't necessarily say they are feuding. Charlie has voiced his frustrations in multiple threads, some even not related to TRL, and the internet medium tends to propagate feud-like conditions.
Charlie and I have spoken many times on the phone since we are both Dude owners and I previously owned his speakers, the EP 2.3s. He is obviously frustrated (I have been there with other manufacturers) and needs some resolution. The whole issue is how to get there.
The irony of his situation (IMO) is that he would be better served going with Clayton Shaw's spatial system for his EP speakers. That way, you get rid of the cheap pro (DBX) digital x-over/room correction unit which performs a redundant DA conversion and sullies the sound. The Dude (and any pre-amp for that matter) is not the optimal solution. Again, I have no vested interest in Spatial.... |
If this question is directed to me I don't know Glory and he knows nothing about me or my experinces with TRL. You will need to ask him about his involvement and motivations here. |
Just two questions.
Is Agear a dealer for TRL.He is not listed as such.
It seems like you and Glory are feuding.How did Glory get involved with your complaint to TRL |
Agear, are you saying I was offered a refund and refused it? I went back through all my emails to Paul and during my 9 month ordeal I found two where I asked for a loaner (before it was shipped back the first time) and a refund the second time it came back DOA. Neither of my requests were fulfilled. Send the proof of your accusations to the original thread creator. After all its for his or her benefit right?
Why are you asking me about troubleshooting? You were copied on at least one email response to Paul and we talked countless times over the phone. You even acknowledged others were having the same problem! You even floated the idea of a third party to take a look at it!
Personally I cant believe TRL allows you to represent them. You make them look a lot worse than they really are. |
No not to the best of my recollection but I can check emails to be sure. I do remember asking for a refund at one point though. I really did go the extra mile(s) to hang in there and resolve the problems. I went far over and above the call of duty as a consumer. That I can say with absolute certainty.
It is possible that my situation is isolated. Problem is we can never find that out for sure for reasons previously mentioned. Obviously I have already written this thing off from manufacturer support and from a resell perspective. Im not comfortable here anymore and probably moving on to another forum so you can keep this manufacturers reputation untarnished for all the wrong reasons. Have a good night. |
Clio09, since you felt inspired to chime in, what has been your experience with TRL in the past? |
Chuck,
Did TRL offer to sell the unit for you? No Pinocchio movements on us now.
Did you call Paul before your cut throat rage in the forums? |
Tony, does Charlie's experiences square with your own since you know the Weitzels well and have owned their products in the past?
For those of you who are confused by thread censorship, please review AG's bylaws. The previous thread referenced involved slander of two separate manufacturers, one by a third party (someone other than the owner of the problematic piece of equipment) and the other by someone who has been offered refunds and help in the past but for unknown reasons fails to engage the manufacturer for reasons which are a mystery. I myself have had struggles with other manufacturers, but publicizing has no inherent value and is self-defeating. If the manufacturer offers no help, then I can sympathize with this tactic, but that is not the case with TRL.
Charlie, take your pre-amp to another audiophiles house and see if this phenomenon is transferable. What specific trouble shooting have you done? Are you still using that vintage (circa 1940s) western electric wire? Having a third party attempt a repair may be cathartic but unlikely to produce fruit. Either way, let us know what steps you take to resolve this situation. |
For the record I will gladly ship it back to them for a full refund. Changes nothing in terms of my experience with them as a consumer or as a member of this community. And no I have not heard anything directly from the manufacturer. |
