Dracule1: I'm included in an order of 25 players that TRL ordered from Marantz USA about 3 weeks ago. I could get one from another source, but at added expense. This said, i can wait ... I think. Regardless of where I purchase, it will definitely go to TRL for modifications. I've heard the stock versus TRL modified SA-14 ...
La45: The TRL SA-14 just does everything better; Better dynamics (micro and macro), higher resolution, tighter focus, blacker dark area around each instrument, deeper lower bass extension, and deeper and wider soundstage. Don't get me wron, the TRL/Sony 2000 is an incredible player, one that I could be happy with for years. Everything that the TRL 2000 does well, the TRL SA-14 does better. If I hadn't heard the difference, (if I did not hear it for myself), it's likely that I would not be buying a Marantz player. (The TRL 2000 is no disappointment)
But, don't take it from me, ask Oldpet. He has had the pleasure of having a TRL SA-14 in his system for several hundred hours. My friend who is nearby, with the TRL SA-14, brought the player over to try it out in my system for a few hours. We found that the SA-14 likes the Stillpoints/HRS Nimbus combination with the balls upward to the SA-14 bottom cover, at least in my system. We used the single ended outputs with FIM Gold interconnects and FIM Gold power cord. The TRL SA-14 integrated very well into my system. I can only imagine after the cables had sufficient time to relax ...
Soon Jsala and Lkdog will have theirs. I'm sure that they'll be helpful.
Best wishes,
Jack |
Jes45
Regarding the Sa-14TRL what would you say is the central difference over your Sony TRL? |
Jes45(Jack),
Who did you order your SA-11 from? I ordered mine through American Theater Systems. They're supposed to get the new shipment in tomorrow or Monday. I should have it by early to mid next week. Can't wait. I'm going to let mine break in at least 500 hours before I even think about modding it. Who knows? I may like it so much I'll never consider modding it. |
Oldpet: Thanks for your kind words. I'm not unhappy with my TRL/Sony players; I just made the mistake of hearing my friends TRL/SA-14 and all I can do is think about how much better it is. (Once again, I'm losing sleep with my TRL/Sony, so it's not that I'm unhappy). The TRL SA-14 is pretty special, as you can attest.
Jsala: You are in for a treat.
I suppose I'll keep waiting on Marantz USA for the 11. Anticipation ... anticipation (sing along everybody!).
Jack |
Paul plans to be done with my SA14 in the next couple of days.... can't wait! |
Sorry men - didn't mean to cause undue stress. :-)
Lkdog - Hang in there. I think you will find the wait to be well worth it. So smooth and non fatiguing, (in my system) Just a pleasure! You'll see.
Jes45 - I must say - i don't think you would be disappointed with an Sa-14. But, i do understand the desire to have the latest and greatest. :-) I would have bought an SA-11, and sent that to TRL too. But funds said otherwise. I guess it all worked out though, since i do love the way this thing sounds.
All - Yes - I too am sleeping less these days. I've often found myself drifting off to the sounds of J.T. or Holly Cole. Things could be worse, ya know. :-)
Be patient men! Good things come to those who wait. :-)
Paul |
I am in complete agreement about one thing and its not about the sa-11 vs the sa-14 or is the sa-14 better in balance mode or not, its the freeken fact that I also find myself getting less sleep. I have never had a digital front end deny me sleep before. Add to this there is no "on/off" on the Sony so it just sits there and stares back at me like a sweet puppy dog.
|
Oldpet: A friend has the TRL SA-14 V1 and I completely understand your excitement, it is a wonderful player. His only complaint is that he stays up too late listening ... (perhaps his Wifes complaint too?)
Lkdog: at least you are one step ahead of me. I'm still waiting on the new 11's. If Oldpet keeps posting, I'll be looking for a 14 ASAP. :}
Jack |
Oldpet-
You are killing me, man.
I can't wait. It will be a couple weeks before I get mine.
It isn't getting shipped to TRL until next week :( |
Well.....336 hours have passed. All I can say is, The TRL SA14 never speaks harshly, every sound that comes from it is enjoyable. It is detailed, transparent, dynamic, stage is wonderful, it is never tiring to listen to. Truly a pleasure. I just started to listen to an SACD (james taylor - Hourglass) and, SACD already sounds freakin' awesome! And I haven't burned in one hour on SACDs. I really couldn't be happier with this purchase. Just beautiful sound on every disc I play. Wow! |
The empty room may also create more unwanted reflections which you would want to treat. 8th Nerve sells a "Room Pack" of acoustic treatments that is cost-effective and has gotten good reviews. Given the size of your room, you may need more pieces. I believe they can give you a free consultation. |
Wow. Sounds like a nice listening room. I would imagine its filled with goodies, carpet, furniture, tables, etc. I really believe in sound energy. What I mean is the total amount of energy produced by the system minus the amount taken away or absorbed if you will by the room and goodies that are in it. If you want you can try an experiment. Remove at least 50% of the furniture from the room if you can and listen at the same settings. I bet an empty room with Cathedral ceilings will produce more SPL to the ear.
I had to refinish my basement recently and I removed everything except the system and I could not believe the difference. Cheers to TRL and your "BIG ASS ROOM" -:)
|
Gandme-
That is a bigass room! Lots of cubic feet. Not sure I understand your description of clipping, but I am not an audio engineer either.
What I have been told is that the amp could care less where the volume control/pot is at. Your amp just exists-i.e. -you have a 100 watt per channel amp at 8 ohms and it produces 200 watts at 4 ohms, or 150 watts at 6 ohms,,etc.
Actually turning up the volume control does not call upon more power/watts from the amp. The real issue is (if I am not totally off track here) your speaker load/draw and this is a mixture of efficiency and ohm load variation across the sound spectrum of usually 30hz or so to 12,000hz or something. Different speakers are easier to drive and have less ohm variation than others.
I don't know how efficent your speakers are. Maybe your previous cd sources were hotter and it gave you more decibels with your amp/speaker setup.
Maybe the TRL Sony does have slightly less gain and the system (amp/speakers) will not produce the same volume in that room (which is fairly large by the way).
We also don't know how loud you believe is standard listening (75 db?. 85 db?).
If you can get your hands on a cheap Radio Shack spl meter, then you could A/B with your old cd player and compare.
The only thing that throws me is your description of clipping. Clipping was always explained to me as speaker sound breaking up due to not enough power to adequately drive them. In other words-people don't blow out speakers from too much power, but rather not enough.
Are the Audio Physic Virgo IIs hard to drive maybe? Remember that it is just not efficiency rating but ohm variation across the spectrum.
Sorry, for the long post. Hopefully it offered some other things to consider here. |
oldpet
I'm not an Engineer either, just another music lover.
Paul didn't seem concerned or surprised. I asked him if any other 2000 owners had volume issues..he said no. Like you said, it's the little things that drive us nuts. I have no way of testing the output v without the same test CD Paul uses and a decent voltage meter. I have a digital multi meter, but it's made to test much higher voltages. 2v may not even register... I'm also assuming it's DCV.
La45
I have a unusual listening room 21'W x 32L. Half of the ceiling (over the equipment is 21'), the other half is a 12' cathedral style.
With my other CDPs, Onkyo, Denon and Pioneer,I could set my volume to about 12:00(about 50%) and I'd be clipping during dynamic passages. Now I can peg my Preamp with no chance of clipping 20-30% less gain than the 12:00 setting with the other players.
I do not own a SPL meter, maybe I should! The idea that the sound is much improved and less fatiguing is a possiblity, but my amp just gets a signal from my preamp. Can it get fatigued too? Why is it not working as hard or putting out the same spls, unless it's recieving less voltage?(my other players are "hot")I'm at a loss or I'm just spinning my wheels and nothing is wrong.
You guys are great, my wife thinks that I think I have the Emperors new clothes....good/bad analogy.
My TRL Sony-2000 is at approx 120hrs. I am hearing much more detail. Breaths, thumbs lightly slapping guitar bodies and much more background noise on live recordings, sounds I wasn't hearing on all the CDs I've been listening too for years, not a bad thing... |
Gandme,
Could you tell me your room size and what level is set on your preamp with the Sony 2000es compared to your previous cdp? Also what is the efficiency of your speakers? Do you have a Ratshack meter on hand?
|
Gandme -
I'm not any sort of engineer, and I'm curious what Paul said about your gain situation.
I had the opposite happen. When i first listened to the Sa14 the gain was so high I had to actually turn down the preamp! Paul said it would settle down - which it has.
He said something about the Marantz having an output of about 2 v. Who knows what that means - I know some of you guys do - but even though the unit has settled down, as far as gain is concerned, - it is still the most dynamic machine I've heard.
I'm glad that you enjoy the sound of your Sony. It's funny how little things in our audio systems drive us crazy. Your lack of gain is a perfect example. I guess it's the perfectionist in us, that doesn't allow us to accept these little quirks in our systems.
Stay after Paul - I'm sure he'll make it right if there is a problem.
keep us up to date.
paul |
Lkdog & Oldpet
Thanks for the support. I will listen and wait for another week or so. I bought a Adcom GFP-750 today on the GoN. I'll see if there is a volume change. The TRL Sony 2000 is just sounding unreal...but still low spls |
I've got to admit, I'm starting to get a little impatient with Marantz USA.
I'm still going to try to wait it out ...
How can the US distributor allow themselves to completely run out of stock?
If I do lose my patience, I know the TRL/SA-14 is a winner as Oldpet can attest. I could be happy for some time with the TRL/SA-14.
Damn Marantz USA ... |
Oldpet,
Just came back from the Home Entertainment show. So far the hours logged are around 98. But my problem is made complicated by my new Single-ended amp. The designer said it had 10 hours of burn-in time and that I should expect the sound to dive around the 30 hour mark which occured at around the 80 hour mark on the Sony.
After 48 hours the juice started flowing. If you have ever heard a good Single-ended amp you know what I mean by flowing.
Gandme-
I also experienced the apparent lower volume syndrome. Here is my take on this. I still have my transformer coupled Philips player and a few days ago I put it back into the system. It was very dynamic and screechingly louder in comparison to the SonyTRL. I view the difference as more related to noise artifacts coming from the circuitry that we all have grown accustomed to and when its removed we get a purer sound that is just a bit less dynamic to the ear.
Since I am now at the 100 hour mark the dynamics are returning especially in the bass area. I am adjusting to the TRL Sony's lack of artificial 'glare'as time goes.
Does anyone agree that this maybe a fact with the TRL? By the way compared to what I just heard at the Show, this player is doing something very special.
INMHO the Hi point for me at the Show was the in the Acapella room check it out if you are in the neighborhood. |
Lkdog -
I was in the same boat as you. I would like to have gotten ans SA-11 to try with the TRL mods, but budget and common sence prevailed. I saved at least $1200 by going with the Sa-14. I honestly feel like I'll have this machine for a long time. It's built like a tank too btw. So yes, I'm loving it in my system. It just makes listening fun.
Now the only reason i look at the 'digital adds' is to see if there is another player i would like to try just for fun. However - i live in the real world and have to watch the bank account. That said - I'm still a mighty happy listener. Paul is a pleasure to deal with. His turn around time is really excellent too.
Let us know what you think.
paul |
Gandme-
I really like Parasound gear. I had a 750A before I got my Musical Fidelity A300. I still use an older 800II to power my pro audio/recording monitors setup.
My best friend just set up his system with JC 1 monoblocks. They are monsters.
FWIW, you may wish to check the output of your other sources for comparision. When I had my Sony 595 modded by TRL, there didn't seem to be any difference regarding sound level even though the Sony had 2 Vrms output and my previous source (a Cary 308) had a 3.0 Vrms output. The 595 and the 2000 are almost the same in makeup with the 2000 having an additional transformer or something that helps take it up a notch over the 595.
Paul may be right that the other sources may be "hot", but if you are not easily getting the same sound pressure levels by simply turning up (opening up) your volume pot, then there might be something amiss.
TRL could easily look at it to make sure.
The only other thing I can think of is that there is some impedance matching oddity between the Sony 2000 and the Parasound 850 preamp-but I would not know what that might be.
You have a great setup-yes you should easily be getting as much sound level as you want or need. |
Lkdog
I have the Parasound 850 pre. I bought the amp and the preamp on the gon for $600, a budget pair indeed. I'd like to have a reason to upgrade...but they serve me well. My TRL Sony might give me the upgrade bug I fear! I have Audio Physic Virgo IIs with a Rel Storm III that sound fantastic in my room. I've never had any problems filling my large room with sound untill I hooked up the TRL Sony. I really don't know if I have a problem or not. I'm very interested in how the Marantz mods sound....I'll be following this thread... good listening to you all! |
Gandme-
You are not butting in-you are just joining the party!
Glad to hear it fits well in your system. Not sure what to say about your different gain levels from your sources. What is your preamp that you use? Nice amp by the way. It has been told to me that since a volume control theoretically simply lets out more of the amp's static power (it does not make any difference to the amp) it really doesn't matter if the pot is at 10:00 o'clock or 1:00 o'clock for the same sound level as long as you are getting the listening level you wish. Maybe somebody else can explain this better than me.
Oldpet-
My unit won't get shipped to TRL until next week so it will be a couple weeks before it gets to me.
I can't wait. Thanks for sharing your experience with it as it helped me make up my mind between a SA14 or looking for an SA11. I would have certainly liked to get an SA11 as it is reported to be a bit better after modding, but it is out of my budget range so the SA14 is a good choice for me.
|
Lkdog - :-)
You won't be sorry! It is the most dynamic machine I've heard. The way sound seems to leap out, with such a sense of ease, is really fun! When will you be getting it back? Mine has been spining a disc for 10 days now. I love to go in for a listen - it's enchanting.
pt |
Sorry I'm Butt'in here.... La45, I too have a new Sony 2000 from TRL. I have about 60 hrs on mine. I'm wondering if anyone else has had the same problem with low output. I have 3 other CDPs and a tuner that have much greater volume potential than the TRL Sony.I've talked to Paul about this possible problem. He thinks some manufactures output voltage is greater than 2v. This makes them sound more dynamic. With the Trl Sony running I can run my Parasound 1500A at full Volume without clipping. With any other source about 50-60% and my Amp clips. Besides this "maybe" problem...I've never heard a better CDP than the TRL Sony 2000! I been running it non stop since 3:00 p.m. Tues. It just gets more and more transparent,smooth and detailed every hour! I'm just hopeing it gets more dynamic...again, sorry to butt-in |
Oldpet-
Well, I found a nice deal on a SA14v1 myself and it is on it's way next week to TRL.
Keep us posted. |
84audio-
There has not been an 8260 sent in to TRL yet, but it certainly might hold promise simply based upon the same DACs, and the general Marantz design concept as similar to the SA14.
It was a Class A unit in S-fool FWIW.
My hunch is it might be quite good. |
La45
How many hours are on your machine at this point? At over 200 hrs.,mine too, is really a beautiful thing to behold. |
How about the Marantz 8260? Has anybody heard a TRL mod of that player? I hear the 8260 is a great value, but I wonder if it would mod as well as the SA14. |
The Sony 2000es is getting better and better. I admit that its a painful process to hear the system deteriote so much in the last 9 hours only to return full force tonight.
The entire system is awesomely good now! The vocals have so much character its as if I am meeting these people through their voices. I have not felt this connected to what I am listening to since my vinyl days. This is impressive stuff. |
I was referring to the speed of transients and micro dynamics. Search archives at AA and here for posts on my negative views. |
TOC access and access between songs. |
Hey Reb,
What is this speed you are referring to? And what is it about the Marantz SA-11 you hated? That is a pretty strong word. Did you give it sufficient break in time? Anyone out there have the opinion that the TRL SA-11 in their system is miles ahead of the SA-14 TRL before we start persuing the holy grail? |
Yes, La45 and I are related! As he said, " ... we belong to the TRL Family, thank you"!
I've heard the Modified SA-14 in TRL's listening room, (it could have been Oldpet's that I heard), and it was very impressive. Paul says the 11 will be better.
Now if we can only get the darn 11's into the US ... |
I decided to continue to wait for the SA-11. I purchased one new when it came out and hated it. But, the extra performance when moded over the 14 is worth the $$$ to me. And, I know the TRL crew can fix what is IMO very wrong with the SA-11. I can't overlook the speed of this machine as compared to other players on the market . That is the clincher for me, the one thing it does right. Also, not one to take the risk buying a used cd player. |
Paul told me that the SA14 v1 and v2 will sound the same after mods. So, save your $$ and get the v1. The SA11 will sound a bit better than the SA14 (both after mods).. whether or not it is worth a significant difference in the price of the stock player is a personal decision.
My SA14 v1 was shipped at the end of last week and is now on its way to Paul/TRL... can't wait! |
Reb 1208
I have a friend selling his SA-14 version 2. Email me and I will get you his number. By the way Oldpet you are right on the money my friend. My Sony 2000es at 74 hours just BUSTED OUT! All sorts of delicious air at the top sprinkled with deep rich bass and a dash of PRAT to keep me up late. This is the real thing for those who are not sure about the TRL mod.
If I was doing this mod I might be charging a whole lot more since this easily sounds much more like music and I might add forget about vinyl. Put on a SACD and start selling your record collection. The Full Image preamp and Sony 2000es is a bang for buck killer combination too.
Are you kidding me oldpet that there is more changes on the horizon? I am loving every minute. Audio is so much fun right now. Thanks Paul and thanks LKDog and others for spreading the news. |
No he was talking about the stock version only. At the time I was interested in the TRL SA-11 but I am getting spoiled fast with the 5-disc changer.
|
Reb1208
I didn't hear the stock unit. But, the guys at TRL thought they were "thin and digital sounding". Mine is a version 1. All I know, is I like what I hear, and it would take ALOT to get me to put this one up for sale.
I saw this version 2 on Agon today:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1119556532
There is also an SA-11 for sale too.
I'll look inside at some point. The case doesn't have traditional 'screws" holding the lid on. It has very tiny alan type screws. I'm not even sure if i have an alan key small enough to fit. But, I'll see what I can do for the good of the cause. :-) |
Oldpet, is your SA-14 a version 1 or 2. I am waiting for the SA-11 but there is a delay. There are no ver 2's currently on A-gon. The seller of the v 1 has not returned my e-mails. Anyway, you did not hear your SA-14 before the TRL mods so it's hard to judge from your posts what improvements were made. Could you take a look inside for us. Any parts changed?, or just the "epoxy" treatments...
Thanks |
Hi Gang
Just passed the 110 hr mark. This machine (SA-14) is really taking on a smooth character that is beautiful to hear.
The presence and detail are still here but now all the areas of the sonic field are coming together. Bass is becoming visceral with EXTREME extension. I love that! Highs and mids are crystal clear. Vocals are right in front of you. The stage is getting much bigger and immages are becoming much more defined.
This machine is not shy about putting out sound either! I almost had to turn my preamp down. I say all this and I realize, how much I thought of this machine at 72 hrs! It's hard to think of it getting much better. I'm sure from this point out, the improvements will be incremental. I'm completely sold on the TRL SA-14. Paul and "his guys" got this one right, that's for sure. |
LA45,
Did the guy in TW think the stock or TRL SA11 had a lean character?
Thanks. |
Oldpet-
Glad to hear that the unit sounds like a winner for you. The people I have heard from about the TRL Marantz SA14 have all stated it is extremely impressive across the audio spectrum.
Enjoy! |
Nice player. The Marantz SA-11 TRL version has got to be the best. Anxious to here more when you get it. It looks great and I suppose it will be great after Paul does his magic. I spoke to a fellow in Tawain and he says the unit has a lean character but he tamed it by using the old Van Den Hul carbon inteconnect. He loves the results.
|
As I may have mentioned before I have some new additions to the family, a brand new Single-ended amp with its roaring power of 8 watts and a new engaging preamp. So I am dealing with 3 new units to break in.
And as far as whether Jes45 is related the answer is yes, we belong to the TRL family thank you. |
thats what i thought with my TRL sony 2000es, I took my unit apart almost as soon as it came out of the box, well at least after a short listening, I really wanted to know what makes this thing tick. too my suprise there was noithing out of the ordinary, except this red "magic" stuff all over the board, and the nicely laid out power wire feed straight into the transformer. After taking it apart and checking every little detail, I called Paul and asked him if there was any way to make this already awesome unit better. He recomended some isolation devices, I also asked him about a power cord, speaker cables, and interconnects he told me that, Joel one of the guys that works with Paul and Brian could make me up a set cables to help complete my system. I haven't got them yet but im sure they are going to an excelent upgrade to my system, Paul also mentioned that he and brian have a tranistor amp. coming out soon, anyone hear anything aboiut that I would appreciate the feed back. I've been reading up on the marantz Sa-14 and I really like what i hear about it, it's right there in my price rang including the cost of the TRL mod, if it's anything like my 2000es im sure im gonna love it. |
Hi Jes45 and La45 (are you guys related?) :-)
I have to admit - I snuck a "quick listen" in last night, after only 72 hrs. When I got done listening at 4:00AM!!! - I was thrilled and amazed. Amazed, at the things I was hearing on my discs (redbook) for the first time. Haven't even begun to break in SACD yet. Thrilled, because of my decision to go with TRL. For very modest money - player and mods included - I'm not sure how this player can be beaten. Again, this is only at 72 hours! I'm really looking forward to hearing this machine blossom. 500 hours is a long way off, but it is going to ba a most enjoyable walk.
Advice - if you can find a used SA-14 or a close out model - BUY IT!!! Send it to Paul and "his guys", and rest assured, you will be getting a firts rate player - by any standard. You'll also save yourself alot of money if you are thinking of an SA-11.
As I type - the break in continues...84hrs...85hrs..........
:-) |
La45 says, "I can't get over the fact that I am using a 5-disc changer for my high end system. This player is a get up and sit down time saver especially since I am using a remoteless preamp.
I just can't get over how good the TRL sound is on this Sony 2000es."
That's my experience, too. I'm relatively new to the multi-disc players, but have to admit that i love the convenience of having 5 discs to pick and chose from before having to move from the sweet spot. And, I don't feel as though I'm sacrificing sound quality for that convenience.
I'm moving ahead to a TRL/SA-11 and then will find out just how convenient the 5 disc player really is ...
Sigh, isn't our hobby fun? |
Hey Oldpet,
I am also curious about break-in. Please keep us posted if there is any change at 100 hours. On my Sony 2000es I have about 60 hours playing time. The Ray Charles "Duet" sounds Rayish and enjoyable last night. I can't get over the fact that I am using a 5-disc changer for my high end system. This player is a get up and sit down time saver especially since I am using a remoteless preamp.
I just can't get over how good the TRL sound is on this Sony 2000es.
|
Hello Oldpet,
Paul has 3 main personnel that work on the units, himself, his brother Brian (of Record Research Lab) and Brian's BIL, Joel Sherman.
Brian and Paul are also partners in their new company "Transistor Research Labs" and have a new amplifier which will debut within a few weeks.
Please tell me your thoughts about your SA-14 after it breaks in a little. My friends unit really started sounding great after 100 hours. |
