"That "purity" and "thereness" you mention is very hard for most other types(non SET) of amplifiers to achieve, at lease when compared to the better built SETs."
Charles, you make a statement like that and provide directional counsel to Tellefsen, and then revert to sonic relativism. What SS amps have you heard in your own system in recent history? Audio shows are relatively worthless in educating our sensibilities.
I have spent the last three months doing extensive A+B testing of three different amps, including a SET, and have come to my own conclusions which I will share at a later date in a more appropriate setting.
Tellefsen (Norwegian I presume), you obviously have an itch. Let us know where is takes you. |
Hi,
Agear now it seem as though you`re missing the 'point', In my quote above I was quite clear to say 'most' and not 'all'. You have spent 3 months evaluating amps in your system and have drawn certain conclusions. I`ve spent many years listening to various types of amps and have also formed conclusions based on observations, just like you or anyone else.
There`s no resorting to "sonic relativism" as you put it, in terms of 'coping out', but merely to state the obvious,there is no absolute when it comes to audio.
Your observations and subsequent decisions they lead to are no better or worse than mine, they`re simply yours.
There`s no need(or point) is debating SET vs SS atributes as it will depend on who`s doing the listening-judging(how else can it be?).
I understand that show conditions are`nt ideal, yet somehow many rooms/components manage to sound good and sometimes even great! They are setup by those who know their components best. Of course I have`nt heard many of these amps in my system and never will(just impractical).
Tellefsen I`m sure took what I wrote as one person`s opinion, the same as all the other contributors to this fun thread he started.
The best SS amp i`ve had in my system was Symphonic Line(German) it was very very good. My Frankenstein MKII 300b SET is a superior amplifier for ny needs and desires. You and others could/would feel differently, what is the big deal.
Agear if you find SS amps ideal for your needs then that`s the direction to go.You can do all the extensive A/B testing you want but at the end of the day they`re just 'your' results. I really don`t understand the need to prove one amp catagory is equal to or better than another. Come on man , it is and will always be subjective thus relative when all is said and done.
Regards, |
|
Agear...yes I am Norwegian...I find myself not consistent in what amplifier I prefer with my current setup (viva and mc402). I find that sometimes the type of music and more so my mood has an impact on what I prefer. If I am in a rock-out kind of mood I may prefer the power of the big mc402). I also have a pair of passive 15 inch Green Mountain subs that I drive with a Crown XTI-2000 amp that has a build in DSP. This lets me run the main speakers full range and bring in the pair of subs at 45-50Hz with whatever crossover slope I want....So I have many system permutations available to me to find that sound that satisfies me at the moment. |
Yes Agear, some current SS and hybrid amps sound as you describe in your post. I like Electrocompaniet and my current Aesethix Atlas hybrid amp.
However, remember that these high achieving SS amps will not always sound this way on ALL speakers and in ALL set-ups. On certain speakers they will and on others perhaps not. More to the point is this, what I consider beautiful sounding another will deem boring or dull. The "blows another amp away" feeling is based soley on what we like/prefer as individuals.
I do not think any SS amp sounds like a SET amp however. Some will prefer the sound of well done SS amps with certain speakers, but SS amps don't sound like SET tube amps.
I like the original poster's idea of changing amps to fit his mood. Pull out the Mac 402 when he wants a big, bold, dynamic, loud and warmish sound. Fire up those lovely Viva amps for an intimate musical experience. I can sooooo relate! |
After reading all this, my system's going to the dumpster!
Happy Holidays! |
That is my point that there are SS amps being made today that can have the SET characteristic sound and the balls of SS so you do not need two amps. The ASR does indeed have both worlds going on and I am sure many more SS amps being built today can do the same.
MC and a HNY to all you right brain SET listeners.
Ho Ho Ho. |
Tellefsen, that is what I suspected. It's too bad you have the impedance mismatch with the Dude since it imparts enormous drive and energy and would most likely improve the Vivas performance on rock and large scale music. Another obvious and logical solution would be to try a more efficient set of speakers (but that is a pain). That being said, I have heard SET systems falter with rock and large scale orchestral music even with 16 ohm 101 dB speakers. Yet another solution would be to have two systems. I am jealous of guys who are able to do that.
Just to clear the air, I have to state emphatically that I am not anti-set. It is not a technology that audio evolution is leaving behind. Some of my favorite rooms at Axpona in Atlanta were set-driven. I get it and I like it.
I think a lot of threads decompensate due to semantic issues. We talk by or around one another since things are poorly defined. So....when someone says an amplifier has a "purity and thereness" that is hard to match, what exactly does that mean? I have heard philes talk about their OTLS, SETs and SS amps that way. I think I know what that means but I want others to answer to see if we are on the same page. |
Agear,
I understand your point,and the problem is there`s no definitive or precise vocabulary ground rules in high end audio. We all use adjectives in an attempt to convey what we hear and of course different words and terms have various interpretations by others.
For example my use of 'purity' and'thereness' was my attempt to express the sheer presence(vivid and palpable) factor and lack of mechanical-electronic character my SET provides. It`s the highest level I`ve ever had in my system, the performers and sense of venue is that apparent.
I know among SET amps there`s a hierarchy for sure, some are just better than others, but the higher quality SETs are superb in this regard(noticed even at audio shows)
If someone says they get the same level of these characteristics from their SS amp I have to except that they do, it`s just I have`nt 'yet' had that experence with SS personally. I simply won`t argue about the listening impressions of someone else(pointless). We hear what we hear.
The vast marjority of my music is jazz, large and small scale.I find no limitation with other genre of music with my SET system.
Regards, |
Charles, I think we are all a little loose with our language. Add to that the trite nature of electronic mediums, and we inherit the whirlwind so to speak.
Your elaboration of purity and thereness is good. A vivid palpability or "presence" minus mechanical artifacts is a solid foundation. For me, that magical presence also involves ambient energy. A lot of systems I have heard, whether SET, OTL, push pull tube, or SS, fail in that area. You have the soundstage clearly delineated with good depth, clear, 3D images, and yet the whole thing is limpid and static. Pretty sounding hifi.
I believe ambient energy is linked to dynamics. If a system is not capable of lifelike dynamics, the absence of any mechanical edge is irrelevant. As Maril555 pointed out in a Coincident Frankenstein amp thread, SPLs in a concert hall are on average 85 dB with peaks at 100 dB. If an amp/speaker inteface cannot pull that off, its a mismatch. This is purely a matter of physics and not personal taste.
Another ripple to add to the equation is power. Clean power and SOTA power conditioning adds all the things we have been talking about here regardless of amplification type. I was involved in an after hours demo of Miguel Alvarez's Tripoint Orion in a SS system at the recent Axpona. It utterly transformed the sound, and provided the most palpable images I heard there. So, the thing that is most often forgotten is somehow the most important. I have had similar experiences with Dale Pitcher's new Theorem conditioner. Without it, the system sounds broken regardless of what's upstream (I am not a dealer for either company).
As for the TRL Dude/Samson cocktail, it does not sound SET-like in the traditional sense. Due to the Samson's transparency, the speaker and source are uber important. Paul and Brian are big on master tape, and I understand why.
In terms of pure logic, Tellefsen needs to demo other speakers. I know that is painful, but if you like what the Viva does, it makes sense. |
Agear,
Tellefsen may or may not be getting the most from his Viva,all I know is it`s capable of outstanding dynamics,presence and projection with the 'right' speaker.
Agree completely about AC power conditioning,I use a BPT BP-3.5 Signature Plus(balanced transformer 20amps) and it makes a 'substantial' improvement in sound quality(no down side either).
System synergy/compatability takes planing and time to get things right.
In my case the linestage,amp,speakers(made to match with SETs) and power cords from the same talented designer simplified this process a lot.
As a result a SET based system works fabulously for me(maybe not for others). I wish you the best with your current amplifier evaluations. |
I got to spend some quality time with my Air Tight/Viva combo spinning vinyl this past Christmas weekend (Technics SP10-MKII/Basis Vector/Denon DL301 thru Tom Tutay tube phono). This combo just makes music and mostly lets me forget about the hardware. It makes me want to buy more records (a good indicator).
I think I am going to hang onto the Ddde a little longer until I find a way to demo an amp that can show its potential in my system. If there is anyone around Dallas with a pair of Samsons or D225 interested in "playing in someone else's sandbox", let me know. Thanks to all for your insights and thoughtful discussion. |
Tellefsen, that sounds good to me. Enjoy.... |
Ask Paul at TRL. I know there are guys in your area who own his big tube gear.... |
Responses (1-30 of 30)
Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.
08-03-11 Nice review and good luck with the unit. i am asking if you ... Schipo
08-03-11 I first thought i would have trouble with the 2 knobs but qu ... Carey1110
08-03-11 I loved your review. thanks! bob Rsimms
08-06-11: Tthean
Can you share a little what is the difference between the Dude and the Sindo Vosne-Romanee you used to own? Dynamics, tone, transparency and etc...
Thanks,
Tuck
Tthean (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-08-11: Carey1110
Its so difficult to try and compare the two preamps simply because the Shindo I'm told needs to be a complete system to be optimum. However I did have 2 Shindo preamps the Messeto and the Vosne-Romanee and I prefered the Messeto the cheaper one. Just dropping the Shindo VR v/s the Dude into my system was a night and day difference. First of all the Shindo cost almost 4x the TRL. They are well built as well but not 4x. I thought the Shindo was ok but boring as compared to the Dude. Once again Dynamics was a major factor here. Much more realistic and explosive, and not just large scale dynamics but also on a smaller scale. Slight changes in voice and instrument volume level changes were more apparent. Smaller background instruments were clearly identified. As far as Imaging goes, none of my previous preamps has even come close to the DUDE. The images are so life-like that I just can't believe it, so solidly placed. Sometimes I sit in the sweet and just laugh calling my son to come hear this. He says "how can it do that". I don't know but it sure does since the Dude came in. The ultimate in transparency. Tonality is the best, well real, real real. The Shindo I'm sure can sound very good as well or at least I hope so for the money they cost. However in my system, not even close.
Carey1110 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-18-11: Grannyring
Nice review Carey and my experience with the Dude over the past 2-3 years has been exactly like yours. It is the heart and soul of my system and really turns a stereo system into music!
My new Dude shares the same extra 6sn7's per side and extra capacitance of yours. I am enjoying my music collection like never before. Goodness you have had some great preamps in the past!
Grannyring (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-19-11: Sgr
Could you please compare the Dude to the ARC REF 3? I've really been interested in this comparison and you may be the first I've seen that's owned both.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Sgr (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-19-11: Carey1110
The Ref 3 and 5 had very good dynamics and were the best in that regard (except the Jadis jp 200) until I heard the Dude. When I first heard the ARC units they really caught my attention with their seemingly transparent detailed sound, they have a high initial wow!!! factor right away. However over time I became disenchanted with the sound. The "detailed" sound in my system became annoying and sounded more thin, electronic or bright. With the Dude the music is more natural, not soft or warm but natural. As far as detail I have it throughout the entire music spectrum not just the top end. Midrange definition with the Dude is my system is far superior to the ARC. The ref 3 and 5 both had great soundstaging as does the Dude. The biggest difference with the Dude is that it makes you want to keep listening to the music not the equipment. Very close to real live music, complete with the excitment and immediacy of a good concert in a good acoustical enviroment. I'm trying to write while listening and my foot is tapping and I keep stopping to listen for a bit. All this gear is so system dependant and there are so many variable but I would be willing to bet the Dude will drop into most systems and shine and I believe that is because it is so neutral and transparent.
Carey1110 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-19-11 Thanks carey, i guess trl still will not do a remote control ... Sgr
08-19-11 I was used to using a remote for years and can relate to yo ... Carey1110
09-23-11: Tuongsy
Hi Carey1110
How does the Klyne LX-5.0 phono sound when hooked up with the Dude ? Also, which cartridge do you use in front of the Klyne LX-5.0 phono ?
Thanks
Tim
Tuongsy (Answers | This Thread)
09-24-11 Wow!nice review!awesome pic!i want one!thanks for sharing! Raytheprinter
09-24-11: Linnmaster
Nice review - a very good read. I can totally agree with what you say about the Dude. Although I do not own the DUDE, I own the older series two unit line stage made by TRL.
P.S. If Redbull can's are not large enough, you can always substitute them for Coke cans ;) I did on mine, but one was not enough ...
Linnmaster (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
09-30-11: Carey1110
I love the Klyne 7PX 5.0 with the Dude. The Dude is just so transparent and dynamic that it just allows the Klyne to shine through. I would love to hear a TRL phono just to compare. Right now I'm using a NOS Monster Genesis 2000 but would like to upgrade to one of the ZYX models at some point.
Carey1110 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-05-11: Tuongsy
I heard the ZYX Artisans, (both the older and the newest models) with the Dude. It sounds very weak, even with different cartridges. I really do not know what was wrong. It may need a step up transformer. Another Audiogon member had the Herron 2 phono pre hooked up with the Dude. He loved it.
Tuongsy (Answers | This Thread)
10-10-11 Thats interesting, what phono did you hear the zyx with? t ... Carey1110
12-02-11: Bdpack
I have been involved with Audio equipment since 6th grade. Built Altec Voice of Theaters from kits, Dynaco's, Harmon Kardon, Eico and numerous other projects. Owned a Audio store for 40 years and still running. I have owned numerous high quality pre-amps; ARC, CJ, Jadis, VTL,CAT, MFA-Lumi, Hovland, Lamm and others. I purchased a Dude from Audiogon a few months ago.I think I'm still in shock; this pre-amp hands down is more enjoyable to listen to than anything I have owned. I always liked octal based pre-amps and now I'm convinced a 9 pin cannot pull this off. I have numerous speakers that never sounded so musical; Quad ESL-57, Magnepan 3.6, Duo's, Wilson Watt/Puppy 7. This product will become a classic; a steal right now.
Bdpack (Answers | This Thread)
12-02-11 Bdpack, amen to your post! it's hard for others to really b ... Grannyring
12-03-11: Charles1dad
The Dude really sounds like it`s very special. With the exception of audiogon contributor glory everyone else seems to love it.
Just out of sincere curiosity and respect I`d love to compare it with the Coincident Statement Linestage that I own.
Not in the sense of 'mine is better than yours'attitude, but just a fun matchup. These two linestages are both often praised for outperforming or competing sucessfully with much more expensive units.
I`d like to hear what they have in common and how they differ. I really get the impression you could`nt go wrong with either highly regarded piece.
The one potential problem is there appears to be no.'standard' Dude model as they`re custom built per client.
Still this would be fun to compare music with these two wonderful linestages. They could possibly be equal but different.
Best Regards,
Charles1dad (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
12-03-11: Grannyring
Charles1dad,
Yes, I have owned the original Dude and now the latest. Mine is also custom in that it has 2 - 6sn7's per side instead of one per side and extra capacitance. Mine also has a set of $400 Duelund Alexander coupling caps ( I put them in). Both the original Dude and my new Dude sound top notch and share the same circuit. The newer Dudes have a better Shallco volume control and wonderful fit & finish. Both sound very much the same. I say mine has even more Dudeness if you will. Improved transparency and detail are perhaps the most obvious improvement. I trust this is due to the improved 45 step Shallco and my Duelund caps.
I live in Southern, MN and if we could somehow get both pre's in the same system, I would be willing to take reasonable steps to make it happen.
What I think the Dude does that I have not heard in another preamp, is play with incredible dynamics, scale and aliveness with complete and utter ease.
Grannyring (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
12-03-11 Hi grannyring, i live near detroit mi. not exactly close. wh ... Charles1dad
12-03-11 Fuuny thing, i found a web site(while googling) where the au ... Charles1dad
12-03-11 Yes, i also found that site and was surprised to see me quot ... Grannyring
12-03-11: Chetatkins
i think Carey1110 should mail charles his spare dude so he can do a comparison
Chetatkins (Answers | This Thread)
12-04-11: Bugredmachine
Charles1dad - just swing by and I'll let you borrow my Dude for a comparison. I'm in Canton.
Bugredmachine (System | Reviews | Answers | This Thread)
12-04-11 Bugredmachine, thanks, i`ll send you an e mail later today t ... Charles1dad
12-12-11: Bugredmachine
Charles, glad you enjoyed the Dude. See Charles' comments in his system thread.
Bugredmachine (System | Reviews | Answers | This Thread)
01-19-12: Tuongsy
I received my Dude preamp last week. It looks amazing.It is the best looking piece in my system. The color is gold. Right out of the box, the Dude sounds bad. Up to now, it has been playing about 25 hours. The Dude is utterly shocking now. The transformation is not subtle. I am hearing details in the music that I have never heard before. The music sounds so real. I just cannot wait for it to be fully broken in. Paul Weitzel's customer service is outstanding. I am looking forward to purchasing new tube amps from him.
P.S: The Dude kept getting better everyday. I am so glad that I decided to buy it. I kept looking at it when I am at home. When I am not at home, I look at its picture on my computer.
|
When I am home alone ,I look at Jennifer Lopez on my computer.Am I missing something? |
Jennifer Lopez? hey I`m with you, sorry Dude. |
Mark, you're missing Eva Longoria and Anne Hathaway.
As far as the TRL preamp, I'm convinced it does things other pre's don't get.
With the addition of Deulund Alexander Caps (installed myself) game over! |
Where did you install the Dueland caps? You got rid of some of the big Sprague caps? |
The Duelund caps are the coupling caps. I also put these in and Pat and I are amazed at the sound. Keep in mind they cost $400 for the set of 2. We purchased the 3.3 uf value. They are first rate caps and very expensive.
They replace the small caps located towards the front of the Dude. The ones laying on their side. Your's are most likely white MIT caps.
Improvement can be heard in all area. Yes, all areas. Not a slight difference, but rather obvious. More of the Dudeness comes out. More of everything you love about the Dude. It does not change the character of the Dude at all. Just more dynamic, more extended bass and highs, improved air and tone, bigger stage etc....
One other thing I must tell Dude owners. Tube rolling is another place to really have fun with. Not just the 6sn7's , but the 6080 and OD3 in the power supply. I purchased NOS tubes for these positions from Andy at Vintage Tube Services and wow was the improvement nice. He selected nice RCA tubes for me that test perfectly.
The combined impact of the tubes and Duelund caps is amazing and a must for Dude owners. I also use 1940 RCA 6sn7 tubes from Andy.
While I am at it. Get Paul's power cord on the Dude. When you do these things your Dude will be in the best shape of its life and will treat you to tunes delivering unsurpassed joy and smiles. Really! |
One more thing I really need to add. Paul has a great ear and uses coupling caps in the Dude that are neutral sounding and of high quality. Understand I am a budding DIY guy and have modified amps, speakers etc... I enjoy it and am learning. Paul knows more about sound and electronics in one hair on his head then I do.
I rolled a bunch coupling caps in the Dude and the Duelund Alexander caps are the only ones i liked better then Paul's stock caps. This is my preference folks. I do believe they improved the sound in all the ways I mention. In my system, room, and my ears. |
Dude fan mail aside, the OP's central issue is how to find the right amp (with SET-like attributes) that will mate with the Dude. Tellefsen, what about the Dude's performance seemed subpar?
Tthean has used the Dude with a 8W SET and horns and was pleased with the results, but the impedance specs are???
Tuongsy, aren't you (and Gallantdiva) in Dallas like Tellefsen? He needs to hear the Dude with TRL tube amps. That will aid his decision-making regarding the Dude.... |
I am so happy that my preamp is direct coupled with transformers, so I don't have to worry about capacitors in the signal path. I, however have know doubt that the Duelund's are the best caps going right now. |
Direct coupled with transformers is one way to go, but according to the builder of the Dude it has sonic disadvantages - and certainly in his design. Most amps have ample input impedance and only a few can cause some rolling off at the extremes. A Dude owner has his Dude mated with a Pass Labs 350.5 and loves the combo. That amp has an input impedance of 25k ohms I believe.
One can never underestimate the power of system matching regardless of how the piece was designed. |
I think any appraoch at some level has"sonic disadvantages" as nothing is ever the 'perfect' solution. My linestage uses an interstage transformer(rather than signal path coupling capacitors) same as Jwm`s VAC Signature MK II and I can attest to the profound transparent sound of both of them. But as always there`s more than one way to skin a cat. |
'direct-coupled with transformers' has to be one of the more oxymoronic terms I've heard in a while.
The term is 'transformer coupling'. To avoid confusion, leave 'direct coupling' out of it unless that really is what you mean. |
I believe Jwm meant intrestage transformer coupled not 'direct coupled'. |
...or like most of us gets tangled up in the tech talk lingo of the day. |
Charles1dad is right my tongue was tied. |
interesting but tangential data. Audiogon has become the land of bunny trails and subconscious agendas.... |
Just a quick update. I did get to borrow an Aesthetix Atlas amp for demo from a local dealer. It has a 450K input impedance. It was a very high performing combo...Clearly better than my Air Tight ATC-2/MC402 combo. Comparing to the Air Tight/Viva combo was a much closer contest. The Viva has that SET purity that the Atlas could not quite match...but the Atlas was very good in the areas of soundstaging, micro and macro dynamic, low volume detail.
If I could make the Viva work with the Dude it would be an easy choice. Maybe I try the Burson audio buffer as an experiement. It also still has me thinking about the Samson... |
very interesting.
Samsons or Paul's newest tube amp. There are two guys in Dallas with Dudes and Paul's big tube amps. You should give them a shout: Gallant_diva (system Texas Heat) and Tuongsy. |
Ya, I love the Dude with the Aesthetix Atlas. Best combo yet for me. I don't need all the power of the Atlas, but boy does it sing with the Dude on my speakers!
Tellefsen, the Atlas responds well to tube rolling over stock tubes. You can get more of that SET purity with some CBS
Hydron NOS tubes. Perhaps still not that SET tube sound, but I compared the Atlas to nice set of tube mono block amps last week and preferred the Atlas. I think the Dude mates great with this amp.
Good luck on your system! |
Bill, have you heard Paul's tube amps? Comparisons to the Aesthetix stuff? |
No, someday I would love to listen and perhaps own one of Paul's amps. A little out of my $ league right now. My Atlas is used and I paid about one half of retail. |
So after reading Chris Martens review on AVGUIDE of the Burson AB-160 buffer, I decided to give it a try. It definitely solved my problem with both the Vivas and McIntosh MC-402 working with the Dude. I just put it in the system this morning. It does seem to be a very transparent device as Chris Martens had indicated. I will report back after a more extended listening. I think this will let me keep the Vivas and look into the Samson amps as a replacement for the MC402 |
|
Does anybody think that the balanced version of the Dude will solve the problem? |
No, it is an impedance mismatch having nothing to do with single vs balanced connections. If the Burson is really transparent, then it may be a great solution. I guess I doubt the Burson is not changing the sound? I do know for sure as I have not tried one before. |
It is difficult to tell if the Burson is adding any coloration since I cannot just take it out of the chain . I am comparing it to the Air Tight / Mc402 combo |
So I spent some time this past weekend listening to the Dude-Burson-Viva combo. While I cannot assess the impact of the inserting the Burson AB160 since the Dude is incompatible when it is directly attached to the Vivas. What I did determine was that the SET magic and "thereness" was still evident with the Burson in the mix. It seemed more dynamic than the Air Tight/ Viva combo...but that is probably the contribution of the Dude. |
An update on this old thread. I acquired a pair of TRL Samson amps about 5 months ago. I am loving the combination of the DUDE and SAMSONs. They do make music. I first hds the Samsons just sitting on the floor as I did not have two more amp stands. Ended up getting a pair of 3" Maple platforms from Dawn here on Agon...All I can say is that I have focused most of my purchases since then on music. A very good sign |
Awesome to hear. Yes, you have a great combination to be sure. Happy for you and enjoy!
If you don't know, Paul makes power cables for the Dude and Samson's that really bring them to life. You may have them already, if not they may be the final step..... A must with TRL gear in my book written with my small brain. |
Grannyring,
I had Paul make a power cord for the Dude. I have not done that yet with the Samsons, but I do plan to. |
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Tellefsen, put Dueland cast caps in your Dude. Lights out good. Grannyring spearheaded this idea and he is oh so right...... |
