Bdgregory, Thanks for your follow up with regards to the M200 from B&K, I am sure in response to my experience with the 507 receiver. I had sort of ruled out B&K after my experience with the 507 and the Totem speakers. I am glad to hear that the M200 delivers a much smooth upper end. B&K is a great company to work with, very helpful, responsive and caring. |
I run my Manis using a pair of B&K M200 Sonatas. I've owned many B&K amps and the M200's are by far the best IMHO. I've also used many other amps with the Mani's (CJ, Parasound, Bedini, Ayre) and the M200's are by favorite with them. The Manis are reputed to be fatiguing depending on what they're paired with, but this isn't at all an issue with the M200's.
It's not hard to find M200's for ~$500-600 depending on the condition, and at twice that price they're hard to beat. (I noticed there's also a pair listed on ebay right now - I have no relation to the seller). |
I can't speak toward the B&K M200s, but I can tell you that I did run both Forrests and Arro with a B&K 507 S2 and it was aweful. JuNora Jones was so bright it hurt my ears. I honestly thought it was the recordings until I bought different amps and just used the B&K for the pre/pro. Hopefully, the M200s are on a whole different level than the 507. It was a good pre/pro, but I had learned over time (when I switched out the mediocre B&W speakers) to the Totem's, that the highs of the B&K were no good as a receiver. |
i used to own a pair of odyssey mono blocks and compared to the classe or mcintosh amps, there are on the cool side. if you want a warmer amp, try the classe or mcintosh amps. |
There are B&K M200s on Audiogon, right now. Check them out.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1210870303 |
I was hoping someone had experience with the Adcom/Mani2 combo,
but after having more time playing my Manis with the 545, I am thinking I may need an amp that is on the warm side or at least dead neutral.
How about the McCormack DNA-1 with the Manis? Anyone try that?
So far, the best match in the upper part of my price range seems to be the C-J MF2500 or 2500A. |
Rubber, If you are happy with the Adcom, why change anything? If you feel you need more power for the Manis and like the Adcom sound, then just go to a larger Adcom.
As I indicated above, I had previously owned Adcom 565 monoblocks thta had gobs of power for a pair of Martin Logans. I liked these amps very much (though never heard them with Totems). Later, when I switches speakers I went with much lower powered tube monoblocks (90 wpc) which was plenty for my needs at the time.
You can get great gear at great prices with patience, as you have come to learn. While you may be able to get the last iota for more money - it sometimes can cost of lot. I appreciate and respect your approach to solid equipment at bargain prices. I for one always feel happier with a bargain purchase than spending too much even for a piece that mey be better! |
Check out the Odyssey Stratos amplifier, stereo or dual mono configurations. Stereo units are often available used for $600-$800. Dual Mono are less frequently available. Many units are available used with the cap upgrade (Extreme version), or you can send them back to the factory after purchase and have them upgraded. All models have plenty of current, and the Extreme versions have, well, an Extreme amount of dampening power for all those hungry Mani woofers. Since these are sold factory direct, they are a good bargain new, and a silly deal used.
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/index.html |
there's a classe ca-400 for sale right now on audiogon that would be a god fit. if i didn't have the ca-200, i would jump at the ca-400. check out some of the reviews. |
I'm not new to this hobby. I used to follow the hobby closely in the 90s and a little beyond. I gave up on Stereophile and Audiogon years ago because of all the silly debates on minutiae that got very heated at times. Also the high end had devolved into class warfare and snobbery. It's still like that to some extent. There's even a few snobs left on Audiogon.
Instead, I decided to enjoy the system I had, get into the music and not worry about whether or not I'm getting the last iota of detail and passion. The better the recording, the better it sounded and if it was recorded with passion, it came through on my low buck, low snob appeal rig.
I always kept an eye out for gear, especially speakers, that would enhance my system without complicating it and without running me into debt. If I wanted to get rid of it later on, I wouldn't lose any money. (If you haven't figured it out yet- I am cheap and PROUD!) The Manis came up on Audiogon for a killer deal because it had a few nicks in the cabinet. Big deal. At the price, I jumped on it. They are everything "they" say it is.
My Adcom served me well since 1989. Even driving Dunlavy SC-IVs. My room is smallish and doesn't need 1,000s of watts for rock levels. The Duns were the best speakers I have ever heard, but they were way overkill in my room. I reluctantly sold them (and made a tidy profit).
I listen to a wide variety of music. From solo acoustic guitar to huge, bombastic symphonies, to Springsteen, Santana, Allman Bros., with jazz in between, depending on my mood. I listen loud, especially when I'm on the exercise bike.
The Manis fit the bill and I won't lose if and when I sell them. The "little" Adcom 545 drives them well. The bass is well controlled and deep, no lack of current. Adcom uses humongous power supplies and capacitors. They are current monsters. I have tried other amps in the past. I borrowed a Brystom 4BST from a dealer and tried it on the Duns. There was NO improvement in any respect over the Adcom. Perhaps in a bigger room there would have been, but not in mine. I tried an Aragon 4004/2 on the Paradigm monitors I had at the time. Where did the bass go?! No drive, no bass. Back to Adcom, much better. Maybe there was problem with the Aragon, maybe not. I won't try them again.
So, there is some backround. I do want to try other amps with the Manis. I think you are getting an idea of what the criteria are. Low buck overachievers are my favorites. Something well known so if I decide to sell, it won't be difficult. (The ASW speakers I had took YEARS to sell. They are a German brand very similar to Audio Physic, in design and sound, but no one ever heard of them.) The bigger Adcom is only a possibility. I haven't ruled out Classe, C-J. McCormack and other brands in the 1,500-or-so-used range. I'm in no hurry. I can wait for another killer deal.
You're wondering what speakers I always went back to after selling the Paradigm, Dunlavys and ASWs? Radio Shack Minimus 11!!!
Ok, finished laughing? They are GREAT speakers. I've had them since 1982 and they have been outstanding backups. After I sold the Duns, I pulled them out of storage and set them up, prepared to be very disappointed. It has been years since I listened to them, but now they were to be used immediately after having Dunlavys. I couldn't believe it. They were as natural in the vocals as the Duns and Paradigms, two of the most natural speakers I've had. Natural vocals are the first thing I listen for in speakers. ANY pickle barrel/boxiness is an immediate failure. For example, I listened to the Alon IVs after they were raved about in Stereosnob, for all of 30 seconds. The Shacks gave up bass, detail and dynamics to the Duns, and they would get slightly hard when turned up to rock-out-while-working-out levels, but paired with a garage sale M&K sub , they were extremely satisfying. All for a total of $130.00. Now they are the rears in my surround system.
Now I'm in the high end amusement park again, but I'm staying off the damn merry-go-round.
Ben. |
Classe CA300 is a used bargain and great match for the Mani-2. |
I think the following amps would be good with the Mani's:
McCormick
Bryston
Both of these are likely to be the most affodable of my list
Pass Labs 250.5+
Mark Levinson 23.5 (which I think is a great old amp)
Krell FPB 200+
There are probably many, many others out there that will also do well, but I am sticking to amps I a more familiar with and/or owned.
You cannot base on amp or any component strictly on price and the idea that you should spend the same on an amp as on speakers is not a "Rule" one should plan to follow. However, you (probably, like most people) will set a budget and the max. of your budget is what you are willing to spend. If you can find a good deal at 1/2 or even 1/4 of your budget - great! Many Totem owners and threads, look for feedback on their general speakers and if referencing someting like the Hawk, you can assume to stick within the same amp family, but add a lot more power.
Personally, I found the Arro needed more power than the Forrest to really sing. The Mani needs way more than both. |
Mani -2s are great speakers but they are very power hungry. Use what you have right now and scour the Internet for a pair of B&K M200 monos.
This is an older model from the 90s but is robust and provides plenty of power.
Good luck and enjoy your Mani's. I envy you. Unfortunately,Mani's would probably overpower my listening space. I have a pair of Totem Hawks. |
imo, your adcom amp does not do justice to your mani's. i use all classe gear with my mani's. i use the ca-200 amp. my plan is to purchase another ca-200 and run them in mono mode (700 watts each). the 200's have enough power and i love the sound of the classe amps. i took my mani's to my local mcintosh dealer and hooked them up to the 1000 watt mono's. the mani's came to life. i can live happily using 200 watts, but i know they can use quite a bit more to drive that double woofer. |
I just got the Mani-2 and for a bargain price. My current (high current?) amp is the Adcom 545. Naturally the next upgrade is the amp. And naturally again, a high performance bargain is a good thing.
Someone PMed me suggesting the amp should cost the same as the speakers. I don't see how that would make them a good match.
Personally, I don't feel a component sounds good just because I paid a lot. A component also doesn't sound bad just because it's a bargain. "You get what you pay for" is rarely true.
So, I'm looking for a high current (not necessarily high wattage), overachieving, clean sounding amp that is a BARGAIN.
I'm not interested in status or snob appeal. Naturally, (living in Co., I'm into nature), the Adcom 555/2 is on the list. So is the C-J MF2500, Musical Fidelity M250 monos that are advertised today and a few others.
Please keep the thoughts and suggestions coming. |
I have owned the Adcom 565 monoblock amps and also, many, many years ago had a pair of Mani speakers in my system for about one month, but not both at the same time.
I can tell you that the Mani speakers are some of my favorite all time speakers! For their size, they are absolutely incredible. I also owned the Wilson Audio Witts (slightly larger than the Mani speakers), but other than a smoother tweeter, they did not have anything else on the Totems.
Personally, I find the Totem tweeters can become bright if the wrong upstream equipment is used. A more recent case was last year I had a pair of Forrest and a pair of Arro (2 different rooms). Both speakers were way, way, way too bright listening to Nora Jones via a B&K 507 S2 Receiver (which I put in about the same category as the Adcom on the general ladder). When I ran my pre-out to either a Pass Labs amp or a Mark Levinson amp, this glare disappeared and I could once again listen to Nora Jones. When I replaced the B&K, the sound improved dramatically even more.
Because it has been so many years since I owned Adcom, I cannot comment on whether this would be the case. I can tell you that if you are considering buying the Mani speakers (even the earliest versions) that they are truly wonderful speakers and if you are getting them at a good price, absolutely can recommend going for it - even if you find you need to replace this amp. The speakers do like a fair amount of power and the quality and amount of power is going to mean you are likely to spend $1,500 +/- on a decent used amp for them (not great, but decent).
That double woofer design requires the power. |
