TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?

Dear @bukanona : No, I’m not loosing " some " signal but thank’s to the rigth damping levels is the other way around: I have a lot of more MUSIC information in the cartridge signal with a lot less distortions.

Tha’s all, it’s not that I’m in love with damping.
In One of the first posts in the thread a gentlemans posted: " where to damp and how much? " and things are that fortunatelly the answers for those good questions I already answered in the rigth way and again not because I say that but is what other gentlemans opinions about in my room/system.

The Micro Seiki MAX tonearm is an outstanding design that beats easily top today tonearm designs.

Its gyroscopic bearing design is unique an unbeatable. Its 3 arm wands are very well damped, comes with its silicon paddle and additional the big metal nut to fix it at the arm board weigths over 800grs.
Its design quality excecution is second to none and it’s a balanced design with out using spring for set the VTF and along the Lustre GST-801 are the only balanced designs tonearms ever that the balanced mechanism is totally neutral/transparent: no ringing spring down there.

With all respect to Mr. Ikeda what really know is about cartridges but its knowledge levels with tonearms is way different.

Japanese people are not a true sound reference as true audiophiles, they likes high distortions and unfortunatelly they don’t know that what they are hearing has those higher distortions. I don’t care about those gentlemans, I only took them as an example .
Yes very good skilled manufacturers but its knowledge levels in the overall audio main issues is really low.

We can take the tonearm alignment choosed by almost all manufacturers: Stevenson and your SAEC about is a mess to say the least.

All those are facts and certainly not a racist attitude. Btw, who speaks about " credibility " ?

Btw, for how much years do you own the MAX237 with its 3 arm wands and with which cartridges you used and against which other tonearms compared in your room/system and which were your reference LP tracks for those tests? did you used in balanced or static way? could you list the TT, speakers, phonolinepreamp, cables and electronics you used or use in your system?

And be you a SAEC owner speaks a lot of what you like to listen and why the MAX is not for you.

Btw, to know your system item list was only to know which kind of real resolution you are accustom too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@bukanona : That says you never owned the MAX tonearm so you not even can dream or know what you are talking about.

Useless to all of us to follow " talking " with you on that specific regards because you have not first hand experiences. Go figure ! ! ? ? !

Way better to re-read all the Audio links, you must do it too.

R.

No don't own and I don't want to buy Japanese Max tonearm. 
It will make my distorted music sound bad.

Absolutely right fsellet. They can't hear because their eyes are slanted. I wonder if this is true of the South Koreans and Chinese. We use to think it was because of the music they listened to which sounds like a hand full of silverware thrown into the air but rauliruegas has straightened us out.

It turns out that the Japanese and South Koreans love American Jazz and the ones I know are good listeners. They do make some of the best cartridges. Is that by accident?

Japanese people are not a true reference as true audiophiles, they likes high distortions and unfortunatelly they don’t know that what they are hearing has those higher distortions. I don’tcare about those gentlemans, I only took them as an example

This statement is not just prejudiced, I t is also highly offensive and racist.

@bukanona : Just forgeret the others posted questions are not critical. This was the main and subject question posted: Do you own or owned the MAX tonearm?

R.

So Raul you don't know answer into simple question? You can walk on water?
Your question about my system do you think that it will help you to gain knowledge? Do you know the meaning of world gentleman?
I can say for you phono part Garrard 301 refurbished with Saec 308sx or Thorens td520 with Jelco 750. DaVa stepup. Bunch of phono cartridges mostly Lomc. Rada phono premp.
So you feel it is enough? I do set turntables for friends so I know what I am doing but sorry I don't walk on water. 

Bukanona, I honestly believe it is a cultural thing. They like the aesthetic of a large S arm, removable headshell and low compliance cartridges.
They probably think the newer SME arms are ugly.  

Raul I can say that you like too much damping and you are losing some signal... so your Micro Seiki is dull. 
So, Raul, for what spring is used? I can help you it was used in Empire tonearm and Ikeda copied it. It was used in Gray Research 103-SL if to look into old times, many old Ortofon tonearms have springs...
Why Ikeda changed from 64 to 64S to 64Fx to current version which is 64S with some tube damping?
Why people pay so much for old SME tonearms with stainless steel tubes, why in Japan they do had R version of SME tonearms. And why Japan ignored SME series V and IV in general? I would like to remind you that Japanese are not deaf and they do go to concerts as at home space is very limited.

Thanx for the credit rauliruegas. The second article explains why lighter arms with resonance frequencies above 8 Hz have improved performance due to lower VTF variations consequently less FM distortion. It specifically mentions low effective mass as the most significant performance parameter and shows very convincing evidence of this in experimental form. It uses this as the most plausible explanation for improved sound with low effective mass straight line trackers. This also explains the poor performance of air bearing and roller bearing types of straight line trackers that have very high horizontal effective mass. The Kuzma airline in particular got iffy reviews. It mentions damping as an afterthought. Thus it asserts that higher compliance cartridges with lower mass tonearms out perform high mass low compliance setups as long as the resonance frequency is kept above 8 Hz. This also explains why turntables with vacuum clamping out perform turntables that do not have vacuum clamping. It would be interesting to perform the same experiment using both reflex and vacuum clamping to see if there is a significant difference. Putting this together it would seem you want a turntable with clamping that will eliminate warps, a lighter tonearm with a more compliant cartridge. This study was done in the 1980s! Maybe moving away from arms like the Infinity Black Widow and cartridges like the Shure V15 was a bad idea. Big arms with stiff cartridges might not be bad as long as the record is kept as flat as possible.
The first article is hard to qualify because the reproduction of the grafts and the explanation of what is going on is rather poor at least for a simpleton like me.  

Dear @bukanona : I can twell you that with or with out the spring the FR64/66 are a " natural enemy " of any cartridge.

I have several advantages over other gentlemans/audiophiles down here because I own/owned/listened through my room systems over 40+ diferent tonearms maybe way more and were mated with over 150+ diferent cartridges: LOMC, MM, MI, HOMC, Electret, Strain Gauge, etc.

So I had the opportunity to compare in between well damped tonearms and bad damped tonearms and differences in between can be heard even for a " deaf " audiophile.

I know why the bad damped FR tonearm likes to so many gentlemans and I remember very well when I bougth the 66 along the SAECS, Audiocraft and Micro Seiki MAXs tonearms that I did it through Japanese Stereo importer in USA ( I live in México city. ) and that was in Wilshire Boulevard in LA area. I bougth there too several cartridges.

The Japanese Stereo people told me and gave me a writed information that the japanese audiophiles always prefered the sound of FR/SAEC non-damped tonearm to the very well damped ( and way superior overall design. ) MAX 282 because the FR/SAEC one were more dynamic and alive tonearm where the Micro Seiki was to soft, dark and even dullness performer.

Yes the japanese gentlemans like the heavy distortions exactly as our today non-japanese audiophiles. Good for all them.

This is what an audiophile that owns the FR64 posted in this thread:

" especially if you use it with its B60 accessory which adds a lot of mass to the base of the pivot.... "

My common sense obligates me to think/ask my self: how that B60 helps to lower the cartridge tracking developed distortions during the groove modulations job?

that same gentleman today just posted in other thread speaking of the FR64:

" because in my opinion the tonearm is that good. "

Those confirm what I posted here:

" they don’t want and are not willing to improve their MUSIC home experiences. "

Pity and a shame that even today with all the true facts in this thread we read that kind of wrong opinions/advises. How that could helps any one? why follows spreading false information?. No sense at all.

R.

I do remmember many years ago I have read that Thomas Shick removed spring from FR64 and it was claimed as tuning.
Raul said that FR 64 is crap, especially FR66  as it is completely wrong.

It’s interesting how chaotic variables can make system in the mind - if you can’t understand it - destroy it.

Dear @antinn and friends : Thanks for your asking help to link that article and for the other one too.

Both articles along the other ones linked in this thread confirms with facts not only what some gentlemans posted here including the M.Townshend design but what I posted in this forum for at least 15+ years and that almost all Agoner’s diminished for say the least about tonearm/cartridges/TT mat.

The best example about the tonearm issue are the SAEC 560/8000 and FR 66/64 undamped and heavy mass models pivoted designs that I owned and that several past and today owners touted and tout as " great tonearms " almost ever designs.

Through all those years I always posted that what we like it’s not important in the overall issue but the important and critical subject is what is rigth or wrong and why and I said to all those gentlemans that all of them are/were listening way higher distortions ( no matters what ) and that I’m not questioning what they like but ( again ) what should be and why ( this thread has all the " why " facts about. ).

Along those I said to them that exist 3 problems to any one of them can understand that " should be " against their wrong practice.
One is that we have to have a high quality resolution room/system and the other is to be experienced with live MUSIC seated at near field position that’s where the recording microphones are positioned.
The true is that some of those audiophiles not even attend to enjoy live MUSIC very often.

Second other issue ( no pun intented please. ) is that around 70% of those gentlemans own tube electronics that per sé impedes that high resolution need it for.

Third, to have a bullet proof evaluation/test proved process that can be repeated as many times we need it and using the same LP tracks.

Even in this same thread a gentleman loves its Acutex very high compliance and ligth weigth cartridge mated with the over 30grs FR64 undamped tonearm design ( the FR66 is over 40grs on EM, go figure. ! ) and that’s what he like it and it’s fine with me but he is listening with very high developed distortions.

Those SAEC and the FR66 are over 12" EL, really long tonearms: another mistake they do it and when I posted about and as I said all of them just think I has no " ears ".

Way wrong, not only I have very good ears ( not sayed by me but for Agoners and some friends at my town. ) but a room/system quality high resolution that several of them not even can imagine.

I already said here ( and said it for years ) that the well damped tonearm designs goes in specific to fulfill the cartridge needs not the tonearm it self even that helps to the tonearm too but the main subject are those cartridge needs.
Tonearm is a slave of the cartridge.

I explained in deep and step by step all what the cartridge must pass before the signal stays at its output pin connectors: where almost no one cares about because they are entiltled only in what they like no matters what, they don’t want and are not willing to improve their MUSIC home experiences.

I hope that after read this thread they can do something in favor of they.

The two examples I posted in the OP thread comes from two gentlemans that think to know everything on these thread issues ( and in other audio/music topics. ) when their knowledge levels and true experiences are really poor with low knowledge about.

The CARTRIDGE needs to be well damped and not only by the tonearm but by the mat, clamp and silicon damping.

In one of the linked articles we can read:

"" There are two practical ways to stabilize the cantilever deflection. One is to use a damping mechanism such as the brush supplied with Shure and Stanton/Pickering cartridges, a DiscTraker or Zerostat Z -track device, the silicone damping supplied with some tonearms, o ""

So, there is no doubt about.

I owned/used all but the Zerostat Z.

Something interesting I have to say is that way before this thread and even in this thread but before the linked articles I posted the advantages that offers to the cartridge the silicon damping through a paddle:

- that the stylus tip stays the more time in touch with the grooves.

- that changes in VTA/SRA/VTF due to micro and macro LP surface waves been in more gentle way for those cantilever deflections stays at minimum.

- that the antiskating need through the use of cartridge silicon damping will goes down that the normal needs with.

- as me other gentleman here posted that silicon damping improves cartridge tracking levels ( no matters what. ). Means way lower developed distortions.

All those and other issues already confirmed with facts in this thread and this was and is what I was looking for when I started it.

Btw, other that the example I posted in the OP about the silicon damping paddle in tonearms at least two other gentlemans in the thread posted that the paddle on their tonearm are used empty.

I don’t want to change the way of thinking of any one or change what they like it but only put the facts and through that all of them have a " new " oppotunity " to at least think on it.

I forgot. The cartridge FM mentioned in one of those links is something that we don't care about and if I recall only Ortofon gives the cartridge specs on it. I can't remember of other cartridge manufacturer, maybe Allaerts.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Btw, the moniker of one of the OP examples is: the great " keep walking " gentleman. Go figure ! ! the one with the Triplanar is other person.

antinn, thanx for the articles. Article #2 is really great and I think important for any turntable jockey to read. It demonstrates the effects of varying tonearm effective mass brilliantly. It argues that if radial trackers sound better it is only because they are lighter (they are talking about servo driven units.)  It also makes a sound argument as to why a shorter arm is better than a longer one. And why a pivoted arm should sound better than a radial tracker with a very high horizontal mass. The graphs of this are very provocative.  

@rauliruegas, et.al, 

Per your request from PM, attached is the link to the Audio March 1981 magazine with the article on VTA/SRA and the effects of both.  https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/80s/Audio-1981-03.pdf.  While the results are now widely accepted that Shibata and similar contact line shapes are very sensitive to SRA, this other article pivot vs tangential in Audio magazine June 1982 https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/80s/Audio-1982-06.pdf highlights an associated problem.  The tonearm resonance can cause large changes in VTF which then alters SRA. The Audio 1982 article addresses  "There are two practical ways to stabilize the cantilever deflection'  One is tonearm damping, the other is to reduce the effective mass of the tonearm/cartridge system to change the resonant frequency.  We are now some 40 yrs past when these articles were written, and better materials and manufacturing processes offer a wider range of solutions, but the root of the problem(s) are the same (thankfully, it does not appear that we have created any new one; at least not yet).  Also note that static on the record can also change/increase the VTF, and could cause similar distortion.  

My spelling and grammar are the result of a bad education. When this was being taught I was thinking about flying rockets through the neighbor's windows and being a WW2 fighter ace. Spelling and grammar
held no interest to me and my teachers were incapable of making it so. Nobody (except the neighbors) realized I had a brain until I waltzed away from my peers in math. Today they would label me as having a progressive developmental disorder. 

Right nandric, I am not as graceful with the english language as thee but lets see if I can give it a go. Every theory starts with an assumption (two s's.) If I do "X", I will get a certain result "Y". In order to move that theory to scientific fact you have to do an experiment with "repeatable" results that show X indeed leads to Y. Galileo did this. Aristotle belongs in a different subject. Asserting ideas you can not prove to influence others is the reason we have so much mythology in this hobby. "That sounds like it will work" is much different than "This works." It seems the two are always confused. I see no consistent data that proves tonearm damping improves tracking in all circumstances which is what is being assumed and asserted. Certainly in the case of a very compliant cartridge in a heavy arm it might. Otherwise there is no good explanation that it should and no proof that it does otherwise some very brilliant tonearm designers would add it to their best arms. SAT, Reed and Schroder are some examples and there are many more. Reed and Schroder give you instead the option to change the effective mass of the arm, a better approach IMHO. Raul makes assertions based on what he hears. Unfortunately, and we should all know this, hearing is not a repeatable experiment.

mijostyn , what you call ''asumptions'' is the same as ''assertions''.
We all think in the same way: we start with some assertion as
premise which we think is true and deduce from this assertion
our conclusions. But first logical rule is: ''if the assertions (premise)
is no true than the deductions alo can't be true''. 
For a long time there was no difference between ''auctoritas'' and
''veritas''. That is why Aristoteles dominated western education
for 2000 years. Till Galileo proved his ''physics'' wrong and Frege
his logic and methodology.  So the mentioned  confusion is the
result of bad education. 

Nandric: great contribution what you posted that helps a lot to all audiophiles and music lovers. Good ! ! Please follows in that way, it's what Agon needs. Congratulations.

R.

Dear friends: At the end the damping issue is to improve what we are listening and one way or the other in the analog alternative a must to have specially at TT mat/clamp, tonearm and cartridge.

Any tonearm including the SAT will improve its quality performance with that arm wand tape that the only " what? but " it has is that " change " the clean tonearm look.

Now, the tonearms that by design come with a silicon paddle/trough its real benefits is for the cartridge that always its improves its tracking habilities as some gentlemans posted here.

Improved cartridge tracking habilities means lower distortion levels and that the cartridge pick-up more recorded signal ( MUSIC. ) than with out that silicon kind of damping and through this thread were posted critical and important facts/information that confirms the needs to damps tonearm/cartridge combinations.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.



 

Nandric, assumptions are the mother of all F--k Ups

Raul, there is one variable in your assessment that has to give us all pause and that is what you "heard." Forgetting about psychoacoustics, How do we know what condition your hearing is in. Maybe you are an old person who is already rolling off at 8 kHz, presbycusis. Most old people do not even notice this!  Maybe you are on Lithium and have had your cochlea destroyed along with your kidneys and thyroid gland. You could even be myxedematous! 
Consequently, if your argument is based on "what you heard." It becomes almost (but not quite) totally invalid. Next time you do the damping experiment have a panel of friends present and get group consent. This is improve the validity of the argument a little but do keep them off the peyote:) By the way, this is true for ALL of us.    

Éssential- versus conditional approach. The first mentioned is based
on Aristoteles who discriminted between ''essential'' and ''accidental''
properties of objects. It is similar to induction by which one ''deduce''
from one quality to all others. The other approach is by Tarski :
''truth by satisfaction of predictes'':  ''x satisfy conditions a,b, c..,n''
and if not the the statement is not true.
As Raul think that damping is essential property of tonearms so
does chakster about styli. 
The so called ''holistic'' approach is ''obviously'' conditional. Like,say,
 Lew and Dover.

Dear friends : All those changes that I posted and that I did it throufgh the years, including the silicon cartridge damping, not only gave me a better quality level systemperformance but in each case the room/system noise floor gone down too. 

Now, the silicon cartridge damping is not only to try to mantain all the time it can/permits the tracking cartridge job that the stylus tip stays in touch with the grooves always but that the suddenly changes in VTF and VTA/SRA due to LP surface macro and micro waves it can happens in more gentle way.

Additional to all those the silicon cartridge damping permits too that the anti-skate need it, normally, goes lower too.

So to many advatnges down there. A must to do it no matters whaT.

rEGARDS AND ENJOY THE music not distortions, 
r.

"by gosh and by golly." Atmasphere that is so polite. Analog audio would not be here if it was not for science and the work of some very brilliant people. The only thing that does not bow to scientific rules as we know them is the electrical current running around inside our heads.

Unfortunatelly audio analog is not really a science and do not exist inviolable rules.

I don't find this to be true, nor do I worry about being a minority in this regard. There's a lot of 'by gosh and by golly' in this hobby.

Dear @kps25sc : "  A little experimentation will be interesting. "

Absolutely and a must to do it.

Btw, @bdp24  , have you any idea of the viscosity in the silicon that you are using in the Townshend?

R.

The one they call "trough fuel" i have been using, probably has a good viscosity for Townshend type trough ! I ordered larger bottles with viscosity 10,000,100,000 and 300 000 cst from a different vendor. A little experimentation will be interesting.

Townsend sells I think it was 4 different viscosities from 10,000 cst to 600,000 cst. The 600,000 is for unipivot arms. Using that in a damping trough will rip your cantilever off:)

rauliruegas
Townshend sell a 10 ml bottle without specifying the viscosity.

I think Raul raised an interesting issue with airborne vibration. Even if a turntable and arm are isolated mechanically from whatever they are sitting on sound waves in air will tend to vibrate them exciting whatever resonances remain. There are many tonearms now with superbly damped arm wands. I think the best have permanent head shells with the exception of Kuzma. The main resonance that remains is the one that should be around 10 Hz. There is not much in music down there and a properly suspended turntable should be isolated down to 2-3 Hz. Anything above that will not get to the cartridge and arm by mechanical means. A well damped tonearm should not pass on any vibration in the audio band. So, in this situation a damping paddle in silicone can only affect the one resonance point. In the ideal situation there is nothing else to damp. It would seem to me then that if using a voluntary damping mechanism makes an improvement in the sound then either the turntable and/or tonearm are not correctly isolated or internally damped and there are now other resonance points in play. In which case isolating the turntable and tonearm from airborne sound waves might also make an improvement. But, if there is only the one resonance point, 10 Hz where not much happens nothing will improve the performance of the system other than perhaps changing the cartridge. A fixed turntable also has to contend with vibration passed on mechanically. A good example of this is the foot fall problem. Just because a turntable is on a granite slab does not protect it from all mechanical vibration and does nothing for airborne sound waves. I had some correspondence with Mark Doehmann creator of the Helix turntable. He is working on a dust cover system for the Helix that will isolate it from airborne sound waves. It is the final frontier for him.
Right now it is so heavy he will be using gas shocks to lift and counter balance it. 

Dear @kps25sc : Thank's for the link. What is the Townshend advise about?

Mainly I use the silicon paddle to damp the cartridge tracking and found out that 100K cst is not " enough " so I gone to 300K cst and works fine with out " any " obstruction ( I can detect. ) to the tonearm movements but each one of us have to test to decide which viscosity level need.

As @antinn  said: to many variables.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Here are some recommendations on viscosity for tonearm dampening, came upon this site when i was trying to find a supplier of Townshend "trough fuel" that i have been using for years.
http://www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html

Dear @antinn  : Yes, to many variables to be really precise but in any case damping is welcomed.

I tested silicon oil in diferent viscosity grades from 10K to 1,000K cst and I can tell you that only the 1,000K cst is really an obstacle for cartridge/tonearm tracking.
 We have to test the viscosity grade according the tonearm/cartridge combination and we have to have a tracking test evaluation proccess to be able to make comparisons about.

It's way interesting these kind of tests evaluation. Common sense tell me damping is need it, level of damping is what each one of us have to determine/decide. 
Unfortunatelly audio analog is not really a science and do not exist inviolable rules.

R.

@rauliruegas  So, what is your assessment of resin infused wooden arm tubes such a Reed and Schroder use? 

@rauliruegas,

I have both the VPI 10.5i/AL-tube (EL = 266mm) and the 12-3D /printed-tube (EL-313mm). By just a simple balance analysis, the 12-3D tonearm fwd of the pivot is 3X the weight (not effective mass) of the 10.5i tonearm fwd of its pivot. The 12-3D is over-damped and it plays fine and is generally well regarded, but the counterweight I have is a total of about 215-gms. So, at least by observation - I have to agree that you cannot over-damp the tonearm. I would venture to guess that so long as you can balance the tonearm, and the requisite bearing design will not impede motion, that over-damping similar to the 12-3D printed arm pretty much eliminates any sharply defined resonant frequency.

But, the fO.q tape is a piezo-electric damping tape that converts vibration into electricity - and the vendor states not to use on sensitive electrical components. I would think the very minute electrical signal carried by the tonearm wires would make use of the fO.q tape inappropriate for a tonearm.  Also, from military application experience,  there is a science to damping a tube with externally applied damping material. 

Otherwise, for tracking a lot has to be associated with the tonearm length/bearing design - single-pivot, gimble, knife edge, magnetic and all variations thereof. Add to this the cartridge stylus-shape, and cantilever/suspension ’system’ and the benefit of silicone damping has to be variable. There are just too many variables.

Neil

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Sorry.

R.

@rauliruegas 3M and a few others make a butyl rubber tape that sticks to itself when you stretch it. I've not compared it to the Sumiko Analog Survival kit but it does work and does not leave a sticky mess when removed.


The Triplanar has an internal damping mechanism in its arm tube and so works well lacking any external tape for damping. In this regard it works better then the SME5 with damping while at the same time having lower mass.


BTW I think you mean 'riding' when you are using 'ridding'. Riding is used like 'riding your bicycle', 'ridding' is used like 'getting rid of garbage'.

Dear friends: As I said before the silicon paddle mainly is to damps the cartridge ridding more than the tonearm it self. The " tape " is for the tonearm and inderectly benefits the cartridge transducer and its ridding through the groove modulations.

Townshend understand it very well: main subject is to helps the stylus tip ridding, this is the critical issue.

For all the information in what different gentlemans posted here we can see that the stylus tip not always is in perfect touch with the LP surface but several times is jumping and not touching the LP surface, something similar of what happens to a snow skier that due to acceleration and the snow imperfections is not always in  firm touch with the ski bottomplate..

Silicon paddle objective is try that the stylus tip stays " all " the time in touch with the LP surface along better control over the off-center LP characteristic as the macro and micro waves imperfections that disturbs a lot and creates vibrations that the transducer takes as if were groove modulations and reproduce it incrementing the distortion levels, any kind of developed distortions.
From that point of view, like it or not, the silicon paddle is a must to have, we need to help the cartridge ridding. As other gentleman posted here it improves the tracking cartridge habilities and this is a fact that I experienced several times ones and again and again.

Improving cartridge self tracking habilities means lower distortions, more true and complete signal information and improved quality level performance of what we are listening.

I have to say that's really dificult to verdamp not only the cartridge ridding but any other ling in the room/system but the room that's very easy to overdamps.
I'm not saying that we can't overdamp the cartridge/tonearm because we could when our kind of damping impedes the cartridge/tonearm " free " ridding.
Damping must be enough to the cartridge can has more control following the groove modulations, exactly what an skier is looking for during its fall in the mountain or through obstacles: control.

So one thing is to daps the tonearm and other the cartridge and we need both kind of damping down there it does not matters the way we try to do it: we need it, some way or the other.

What do you think? 

R.

@atmasphere  : the dronepuck advise or even that 3m electrical tape or any other ligth tape makes almost nothing for the tonearm EM goes higher enough to be a problem.

Yes, the ideal arm wand should be very well damped but that is the ideal/perfect arm wand that does not exist and that's why we have to take some actions about.

R.

I found that adding the Sumiko Analog Survival kit meant that I had to use cartridges with a bit lower compliance. IOW while solving one problem another is created, like many things in life. A better solution is to start with a properly damped arm tube.

Dear @atmasphere  : In reality the resonance frequency between cartridge/tonearm is not affected because the tonearm EM change is really low because the kind of damping that we are talking about contributes all over the arm wand and not at the headshell only that's where matters more.

You can measure/calculate, here an example: EM 12grs. and with a 12cu caRTRIDGE with 8gr.-12gr. weigth you are inside 110hz and if the EM change to 15grs then it can change to  at 12grs. 9hz but at 8grs. stays 10hz.

R.

Dear @snackeyp  : "  I know that tonearm resonation is partially caused by the vibrations from the record groove.... but believe that a lot of these vibrations come through the plinth on tables that are not well isolated from room vibrations. "

Really?, the main " vibrations " comes from the stylus tip grooves modulations tracking and in the other side no single plynth can do nothing about speaker bass range sound " vibrations " through the air.

The tonearm arm wand tape is to damps the tonearm and the silicon paddle mainly is to damps cartridge ridding and that you " hate " it only  means that you don't like it but not that's wrong with that kind of damping because damping is a must at both positions.
What you or I like has no importance at all but what the cartridge needs.

R.

The 'amp's resistor' does not make a lot of sense in this conversation. However the 'cartridge loading resistor' does and that is what I meant. If it is in place prior to the application of mechanical damping, it may well be found that the damping of the resistor was compensating for the distortion (which will cause brightness) present when the arm, vinyl or turntable was not damped.


So the result would be that by doing the mechanical damping it might sound dead and lifeless. I've found that if your electrical/electronic ducks are in a row, its impossible to overdamp a platter, overdamp an LP with a platter pad (although a platter pad causes changes in tonality all on its own) or by properly damping an arm tube (which admittedly is a bit of a trick,  as this directly affects the effective mass of the arm/cartridge combination).

Dear @antinn  : Good, unfortunatelly the original Sota Mat disapeared.

As a fact tghe Platter mat is way more important/crucial that what we could think due that is the " talking medium " between the LP surface and the stylus tip. a GOOD MAT WILL LOWER THE RESONANCES/FEEDBACK IN BETWEEN.

R.

Dear @atmasphere  : Good that we agree about. Now: are you talking of th eamps resistor or the phonolinepreamp resistor loading?

R.

What I learned there and thank's to my self developed test evaluation process was that I not even losted SPL but what I losted and that was the " culprit " of that LIFELESS were the distortion levels that gone way lower and from the " life " came: false life because was for the higher distortion levels.

I've maintained for years that a sign of a good system is that its a lot harder to tell how loud its actually playing. The lower the distortion the more this is the case.


If you are working with any mechanical damping I would be careful to remove any electrical damping (such as the loading resistor) which might be acting as a crude 'tone control' that might color your impressions.