Dear Dave:
I have an Aesthetix Rhea Signature phono preamp and an Aesthetix Calypso, getting ready to be upgraded to a Signature model. I mainly play LP's and am using a Koetsu Urishi Black and a Dynavector DRT XV-1S carts. Everything is a very good match. Thanks for your suggestion. |
Handymann,
The issue with Wilsons disappering or not or any speaker disappearing or not has as much to do with preserving time and phase differences through the electronics.
Krell amplifiers tend to sound flat, clean but flat. Good bass and plenty of drive.
I used to shock people at my Sound by Singer days of using a tube preamp in front of the Krells which was considered taboo, and boy did it make the Krell's sound improve a lot.
I know you say you have a good sound stage, and you say you have good center fill, when you say the speakers are not dispearing does that mean you are not being drawn into the complete illusion of sounding live?
I would have you look at not just the room treatment and positioning but at the cables, power conditioning. the dac preamp etc.
Often times older components tend to lack the transparency of more modern products, so to me if a system is doing what you say it is doing then I would look at the rest of the chain.
Often upgrading to a more modern dac and bingo the sound tends to get much more palpable.
Our sound room uses echo busters and Shakti holographs, along with Acoustic System resonators these things are amazing and can really help with issues that you are describing.
Dave owner,
Audio Doctor NJ |
@handymann
Yes the Dunlavvy IV had thick felt. There is no right or wrong - just experiment to see what works. |
Shadorne: This is going to sound like I'm a moron, but I've been so hung up on being seated in Exactly the middle and moving my speakers, etc, never thought about moving my sitting position. Moved about six inches to the right and as Gomer would say, which is who I feel like, Shazam-no speakers. Must be my room. Hate to admit that-Getting old. Trying to make it too hard. I had tried adjusting the balance, but no help. Image was always great, so just didn't think about it. BTW-the single chair also makes a huge difference. Also, speakers are towed at a slightly different angle from each other. 👍 (The wilsons already have a foam surrounding. Wasn't home during all of this and couldn't remember. |
Shadorne:
The pic I see of the Dunlavy's looks more like a semi-thick weather striping. My eyes aren't the best though. As I said-what effect do you think a 3 seat leather sofa has, instead of a single seat chair? |
Shadorne: What effect do u think a 3 seat leather sofa, instead of a single seat chair would have? I have the sofa. |
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Hi Spar. I understand about the small adjustments. I think I even posted here one time as little as 1/4" can make huge difference. I have spent hours doing this and more. I need to post a picture of my room I guess. I pretty much almost have each side of my room symmetrical-almost. Same goes for the back and front. One thing I am using that may make a difference, is a three seat leather sofa, instead of a single chair. |
Handyman
In terms of distances I have set up my MAXX very similar to what you have done. However, its very important to be very methodical about set up; I found that changes of only 1/2 inch truly made a difference with these speakers. While it sounds like you have them properly soundstaging, to make them disappear you definitely will need to toe them in more so you just see the inner side. Then
while maintaining the toe in, start moving them small increments toward and away from each other, and when you think the sound has become slightly more diffuse, then slightly alter the toe in further or less to see if this further causes some disappearance of the speakers. Finally check to see that the speaker distance to your listening position is exactly the same. Once this is completed you still may wish to make very small adjustments within the surrounding rectangular area under the speakers which has gotten smaller and smaller. You will need to mark the floor with tape in order to do this accurately. A laser ruler can be very helpful for accuracy so that speaker distances to the listening position are exactly the same.
Furthermore, you probably need further diffusion behind the speakers, not just absorption. I have had success using a 16 inch ASC tube trap directly behind each speaker with the diffusion side of the tube trap facing the listening position. From what you describe you may actually have too much damping directly behind the MAXX. Try removing some and see if this also helps. While these speakers are large, they definitely can be made to disappear. By the way, this can take a bit of time making these incremental changes and listening after each change so don't get frustrated, rather enjoy the journey. |
Shadorne
So what you're basically saying, is to put a piece of felt over the surface of the speaker, where the mids and tweeters are located, cutting out a hole for the speakers? That would raise the face the thickness of a standard piece of felt. |
fdpdk
That's a good idea. I never think of the simple things... |
Handyman
Why not just try to email Wilson Audio , they might help you with suggestions.
I have heard Sabrina / Yvette / Sasha 2 where the loudspeakers was completely gone.
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gpgr4blu
Thanks for your input about my speaker set up. I just used the term equilateral as a general idea. I have my speakers aprox 9’ apart and am not quite 11’ back. I know what Wilson says about just being able to see the inner most sides of the speaker slightly. Always open to suggestions. |
@handymann
That is just an example and not my setup. Covering the front and sharp edges of the speaker baffle with some felt will make a big difference. |
Shadorne
It appears you have adhered small triangle shaped pieces of felt, to the speaker body around the tweeter and midrange section, that has raised the shoulder of said speakers ever so slightly. Is this what I'm seeing?
Handymann |
Here is a photo example using felt http://tripp.com.au/gif/spk02.jpgIf you put the grills on over top of the felt you won’t even see the felt Dunlavvy speakers had similar issues on the baffles and he used felt. It works great. |
Shadorne:
Thanks for your response. I'm not exactly clear where you're suggesting I put up an edge. Please try to describe in detail exactly what you're referring to.
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With the Sashas and and some other Wilson speakers I've owned in the past, Wilson had recommended that, ideally, you sit a distance of 1.1 to 1.3 times the distance between the tweeters. Wilson did not recommend an equilateral triangle.
Also, regarding toe in, you should barely see the inside panel of each speaker enclosure from your seating position. This is much more toe in than you have. Make these two adjustments and your speakers should disappear from your seating position and elsewhere.
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Hi Handymann,
I don’t have Wilsons but I have always admired them since the Watt Puppy.
Please try some thin 2 or 3 mm foam or felt around the tweeter and on the baffle edges around the tweeter and mid range driver.
When the sound collapses to the speaker it usually suggests baffle edge diffraction. (The sound from mid range and tweeter is bouncing off the sharper edges of the speaker and this creates additional sounds that your hearing will pick up and allow you to pinpoint the speaker as the source of the sound)
The upper mid range driver sits proud of the tweeter by 2 inch on the Maxx 2 and this could be a big problem - protruding edges are far more severe in their diffraction effect. Same issue for the lower mid range as it sits back from the sharo edge of the lower cabinet. Think of it like a wave hitting a pier as it comes ashore - the pier severely disrupts the clean uniform wave and creates new secondary waves.
Our ears use these early diffracted arrrivals to pinpoint the source of the sound and it sounds like things are collapsing to the speaker more than you experienced with the ML.
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