Amen, Rja. I'm no closer than when I started the thread. But I do love the passion of the postings.
rr |
So do I.Whats your position on Pluto and dedicated feng shei[SP] room acoustics?Cheers,Bob |
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Pluto and I have a long-standing plutonic relationship. I'm "all about" Pluto, as my children would say.
It's uranus I'm not committed to. |
I don't personally see the opinions as cancelling each other out. The problem comes when you talk to electrical engineers, the not so smart ones, that think their models are more than just an approximation of reality. If they believe their 'characteristic impedence' formulae are perfectly accurate then they will never get cryo or burn in concepts. But if you talk to applied physicists and quantum physicists you can find that there is much science around how electrons channel a signal through a cable, that this is affected by the alignment or otherwise of metal crystals, and that this channeling can be formed over a period of time and depends on the frequencies the cable is subjected to. I am working with scientists on this phenomenon at present. Don't mistake ignorance on the part of some scientists as a lack of scientific evidence. And no, I am not going to produce anything more for you here until we are ready to publish - that's how I am getting the free input of these guys, they are excited to be able to apply their knowledge to a real world problem, but want to publish under their own names. I suggest you go to your local university and talk with the particle theory guys, and preferably the ones that are seeking practical applications of this science. I discovered this area of science when dining with a friend and describing some of the conductor treatment issues I was struggling with, and she burst out that what I was talking about was precisely what she did her Masters thesis in. Its real guys, its just that few are aware of it. |
Redkiwi,
When I mentioned "cancelling out" I was only refering to this thread not to any broader context. As for cryoing, I believe that it can indeed impart beneficial qualities in some materials for certain purposes. There are many variables in the process however and these can lead to variables in the results. There are skeptical members on this board and for the most part justifiably so. Unfortunately this subject seems to raise some hackles.
I know that in some industries parts are routinely cryo'd to increase durablity so there are those who realize this subject is more than voodoo.
There are many phenomenon that I'm not equiped to understand (including this one) but I don't dismiss them offhand nor do I deny their existence.
BTW: I understand the process can also destroy some materials. |
hello,
I've enjoyed many responses, RedKiwi especially. Some
of the others, "sell me a bridge" seem like a waste of
reading time. However, why is it we can believe in the
manipulation of !80 processing core !devices on a
computer (this week's announcement) and refuse (some
of the block heads I've known ) to believe that there
is a difference in digital cables "because it's all
just 1s and 0s". Steven Hawkin can think at his
computer and type 2 letters per second. Why do I
mention these things? Well, to say that there are
things going on that we maybe yet cannot explain, but
similar things are being manipulated and measured; and
maybe someday we will be able to explain. Is there one
person on her who hasn't heard the difference in
digital cables? How can that be if it's all "just 1s
and 0s"? We are still in the swamp if we accept that
brass connectors are as good a conductor as copper,
are as good as OFC, are as good as HCC, are as good a
coductor as Silver. However, speed and depth are often
difficult to obtain at the same time. Silver is a
faster conductor, yet is the hystersis that you are
avoiding, the worst thing? The difference in silver is
how it is annealed. What is that, other than a the
processing of the metal to make a better metal. It is
like the difference between drawn and poured copper.
Okay, all analogous? Maybe not enough for some, but
those two, and cryo effects are in a close similarity
but via different means. Who here does not believe in
annealing? Does that person only believe because they
read it in a way that pleased them? If it had been
written in a manner that was "over their head" they'd
come away without belief. For those of us who would
say, that when molecules stop moving, they can settle
into closer proximity; (a less than quantum
explanation) is that good enough? A silver digital,
can sound different than a copper one. Suspend
disbelief if
you've not heard it, and go try some. If you are in
the "I must hear it" or the "I'll never hear it" then
you've alread go a strong "mind over matter" and you
can hear what you want, without a sound system, as it
is only giving suggestions and not sound you are
hearing. But lets go deeper, compare a high purity
silver, with that same silver that has been gold
plated. If you can, compare that to some "pure" (I
can't even define that in this case) *gold wire and
see if you do not hear a difference. Silver, copper,
aluminum, and gold are the top 4 conductors. Try this,
and tell me there is not a difference in sound. You
should be able to do this in audio, or your system is
two cups and a string. But you will most probably be
able to tell this is the digital rhelm. Why? Someone
more articulate can explain it. A big fan of cryo is
Jim at P.A.D., Stu at Vampire can explain it, Ed
Mitner was one of the first to use it; Mr. Wright,
(his head teck, who disagrees with proffit margins)
believes in cryo's effects. My AM listening Dad, can
pick out cryo'd vs non cryo'd CDs (two copies bought
at the same time one treated one not) he can also hear
the difference between those treated by Geoff's chip
and those not. It is actually a similar effect for
those who've heard one and not the other. But unless
you are a "Levinson, it must sound the best" or "there
can't be a difference in something I choose not to
believe" type; you may have to step up to the
responsibility of experience. I have found every
cryo'd a/b examination I've done to show it to be an
audio improvement. Maybe somewhere it could make
something lose depth wor weightiness; but I've not
heard it. I say it sounds more like the upgrade from
brass to OF copper jacks. "Just cleaner and clearer".
Can anyone here explain how simple electronic theries
speak for the differences in power cables? If we think
about it as a bass cable, sure it all applies, and
that's what it seems to sound like. But though it is
only operating at 50-60 hz, the characteristics are
that of the full range. So how does that equate? If
you have the spare, time, (I;'ve done it) compare a
silver outlet and a gold one. (redefine, ACME, without
cyote and roadrunner stickers silver plated vs
Furuteck Gold plated). it will possibly open your
mind. Where is the sense in saying that something
can't exist? If it is to fight for all of our good, so
that we *sheeple are not taken by those who would want
us to see the Emperor's new clothes" it in fact is
worse. Those who can be fooled will, those who can be
fooled and can afford may buy, those who can't afford
won't, so it narrows the margin; and those who despite
the campaining will still try to listen... will hear
or not hear the diff. comparatively, saying "it just
ain't so, it just ain't so" is saying "a human, cannot
experience", "a human won't experience", and beyond
human experiece "I can measure the smallest degree
that you can't in order to determine it ain't there".
Maybe they do change the set-up of TVs, but do they
also put one amp through a power cleaner and the
comparison amp straight into the wall? Unless you've
been there for 20 min to 2 hours, are they both
equally warmed up?
I've never been to China, but they say it's there...
oh Hi Marco, how was your trip?
Will you like it? ?????? Cryo can make a difference in
the audio experience, don't tell me please, that I've
not heard it. What kind of metal does your
manufacturer use in their RCA's? :)
|
Yes - cryo does benefit copper and brass for the purposes of better sound. Gold, silver and palladium appears to me to benefit little or even get worse in some cases. As Chris Ven Haus reports plated conductors are also a mixed bag.
The naysayers are usually psychologically disposed to wanting the world to be fully explained and have an aversion to something that isn't - and have rarely tried to experience the issue for themselves. Then there are the gullible that want there to be new unexplained things and will buy on any marketing hype dreamed up. Both are simply classic personality types. Debate between them goes nowhere, and indeed as you say, cancel each other out. And they also create a lot of useless noise on these sites so that intelligent discussion is usually buried. But not too deep.
I was not intending to contradict you Rja, just to report that with a bit of research there is indeed scientific evidence of the effects of cryo treatment and burn in, so we don't have to be confused by the meaningless cancelling out of opinions between the naysayers and the gullible. In fact I pretty much agree with your points. |
Once again this is a question answered all too often by those who don't have a system that will reveal enough detail to let them hear differences so they must not exist.
I have a dealer friend that had one of his monoblock amplifiers cryo treated, we teased him for a month about his posicle and how it sounded like crap, it was terrible. But then after about a month of playing it started sounding significantly more detailed and clean. He had to do the other one so they would match.
The people who don't believe something works should ignore questions about the things they don't believe in spending their money on, the opinions they offer have nothing to bring to the table. |
It probably took that long for it to thaw out Aintitgr8. I see you you the old "your system doesn't have enough resolution" ploy. Don't forget the "your ears are not golden enough" if the former doesn't work. If it makes a difference to you, that's all that matters. But sometimes BS is just BS. |
Another stab!As I asked in August of last year,and received no reply,please any of the proponents of cryo,if the claims of cryoing are absolutely rock solid,how would that make any difference if an outlet,even a power cord,etcetera were cryoed,but (using the adage that a chain is as strong as it's weakest link)none of the other 'links' in the chain were ?I assume there are scientists of various disciplines who post here,so surely at least 1 could enlighten a sincere layman on this point,no?Thanks in advance. |
I've been cryoing cords, cables, CDs, components for nigh on 12 years, a bit longer than the avg bear. :-) Never met a cryo'd item I didn't like. Why does cryo work? Who the hell knows? There's really only one way to find out for sure....
~ Cheers |
I don't understand this verbal merry go round about cryo treating cables or equipment. If it sounds better, buy if not don't. I have cable that is cryo treated but I don't have any cable that is the same without the treatment. My philosophy is if it sounds better, get it if you can afford it. The person who sold me the cable said it made a slight improvement in sound, and I have no reason to doubt his opinion. My home made stand made an huge improvement in sound, I don't understand it, but I enjoy the sonic benefits.
Cheers |
I have some experience with cryoed powercords. I think cryoed powercords sound more dynamic and noisefree ("blacker background") than their non cryoed counterparts and sound more extended in the frequency extremes, but at the same time they also lose some of the "musicality". So for me: no cryogenics!
Chris |
Attempting to gauge results of cryoing cables and such too soon is a risky proposition; it takes about a week for the cables, etc. to recover from the trip to the cooler and simply won't sound quite right until they've had a chance to recover. |
I have been using my deep freeze set on its coldest temp. The deep freeze is right next to a fridge in the basement so its easy and the wife don't miss that things go from the freeze to inside the fridge.
I have only done cd's and dvd's at this point. Does it work...I dont know. But many that have a/b two cds say its a nice improvement. Its a free tweek and easy to do.
I do have some scan speak woofers that have been going back and forth from the freezer to fridge at the current time. I will redo a pair of speakers sometime in a few weeks so until then...cryo them!!
My wife asked me yesterday...."why are you cryo treating the speakers!" |
Freemand,just wondering if your freezer goes to 300 below or so.... |
Usblues, not sure what it goes down to. |
Google a cyro website,you need some more info I am thinking.Good luck,Bob |
I think Freemand is talking about a home freezer; what do they go down to? I'm guessing zero to ten degrees Fahrenheit.... |
I think that was Usblues's point, thus his recommendation for research into what temps ARE required.
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Gracious Metro04,that would be the point.Didnt want to appear heavy-handed by mentioning the missing 244-300 degrees.Cheers,Bob |
I'm not sure what the best temps are. From reading in forums guys say there deep freeze to fridge works effective for them. I have not done an a/b of it but may have to. It works for cd's according to many. Not sure, but I think maybe that article that came out by that guy in stereophile years ago about the benefits of cd's cryod. I believe the freezer may have been what was used.
Maybe all the product needs is a deep freeze and slowly warmed up?? |
Freemand: Did that article, or other forums, state was actually being altered during the process? How can deep-freezing affect what a laser reads on the CD surface, and in a "positive" way, if at all?
|
Program about the science of "ultra" cold coming up soon on PBS. Probably something to learn about the subject for all of us. |
"The Race for Absolute Zero" on PBS. |
Hi Guys,
Below are a couple of pieces in Positive Feedback that I found interesting.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/goffinterview.htm
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/cryo_international_interview.htm |
Rja: Looks interesting despite all controversial audio-related applications. And to think there was a time in our youth when watching PBS would have brought on laughter, pointing, and ridicule from peers. Now, if they would only bring back the National Geographic nudity I "grew" to enjoy and expect. Well, that, and the Sears Robuck Catalog underwear section. Don't act like you don't know what I'm talkin' 'bout!
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Metro, not sure if I am capable of answering your question.
I guess I don't know how it works and as hard as I try I just can't get worried about it! I say it is what it is just like My Vikings never winning the Superbowl! |
They were Vikings till 1982.Now they would be Queens,pity,especially in this weather,like Green bay this weekend....hey,did you get around to the cyro trip?You realize you need to go to -300 and come back up slowly right?Save your freezer for the deer...good luck,Bob |
I hate THe dome. They better go open field only cause Ziggy keeps trying to get the state to approve a stadium. I think the lions are wimps to have the sad Ford field...its football.
Numerous guys hear good results from their deep freeze with cd's. I kinda believe it but need to do the a/b. Not much skin off the cats back by popping them in the deep freeze. |
I also have subjected the Cd's to various tortures,including the freezer,but that is not what you would call a cyro process which starts at -244 and goes down from there.That would be called something else depending on your neighborhood/circle of freewheeling friends.....yeah,Ziggy and his Jersy hustle may yet payoff for him,hard to say at this point.The timings off for his trip right now as the Twinkies and the Gophers scored first....cant wait for an openair DT ballpark,dont care who's playing what....sitting, watching the sun go down with a cold one,smelling the cigar-smoke.....where do you live?Cheers,Bob |
OK, so let's say to cryo, now should the item be broken in for maximum effect beforehand? |
