Thiel Owners
Probably more than a third of those components were time correction for each the upper and lower midrange drivers. Bucket brigade analog time delay to fine-tune the arrival time. Those ubiquitous yellow 1uF styrene film x tin foil caps were developed for the CS5 and persisted to the end in various forms. |
The CS5(&I) was the exception. It was too big for that. That huge xo board slid into a pair of grooves near the back of the cabinet, abutting a rubber bumper at the top. The cabinet base with a rubber bumper was screwed up against the bottom of the board. I think the long edges were just a light friction fit. Long ago indeed. 1988 introduction = 33 years ago. |
With my in cabinet solution the resonance that will always accumulate on a chassis or components suspended or not will be dissipated with specific coupling methods and geometric shapes. For my method to work most effectively the same mechanical grounding scheme must be applied to the outside bottom of the cabinet to the higher mass of the floor. Suspended devices in free air especially under the bombardment inside a cabinet are presented with no path to dissipate resonance so those components will pass that interference on to the rest of the circuit. Your method does reduce the material cabinet resonance from compounding the air impact resonance of your suspended parts. The free air method still holds onto some of the resonance which then becomes part of the system. Tom |
Tom - your hypothesis is of interest. One observation is that all Thiel speakers mount their XOs to the bottom or back near the bottom with lots of fiberglass between the XO and the drivers / moving air. Plus the sound is hard, like a driver bottoming. When I put the redeveloped XO inside the cabinet, mounted on nylon studs and rubber feet, the problem had vanished. My best guess is some sort of electromagnetic saturation and/or possibly the bottom end of the midrange bottoming out. (But I didn't change the midrange driver, only some specifics of the crossovers.) As I've mentioned before, getting the XO out of the cabinet does worlds of good. My in-cabinet solution is different from yours - I am suspending each of the 3 small crossover boards in free air, rather than clamping it the the wall where it must absorb the cabinet wall vibration. |
Tom, Could the splatt heard be caused from turbulence inside the cabinet generated from crossover placement or the mounted components. The air flow would be disrupted by the mounting arrangement of the components on the board. The turbulence would change with an increase in excursion. Internally I have much sonic success with hard coupling the board to the speaker bottom and able to tune the board externally with a brass hex head assembly..1/8 of a turn can make some good magic. When the board is mounted outside there wouldnt be the turbulence but there is always a benefit in mechanically grounding the board to the higher mass of the floor. Resonant energy will go that way if given the right material and geometry. Tom |
naimfan - Some thoughts on the CS2.2 (where I’ve reinserted the rightful decimal point). The model 2 was a smaller-scale version of the original 3-way model 3 - less expensive for smaller rooms and moods. The model two often benefited from trickle-down tech. The 2.2 got the UltraTweeter developed for our flagship CS5 in the late 80s. Pretty good tweeter. It also got some driver motor technology including custom motor machining and copper coil and pole-piece shunts, new technology at any price at that time. The CS2.2 was Thiel’s first passive radiator which went on into all future floorstanders. On the manufacturing front, the CS2.2 followed the CS5 for which we got our feet wet with all CNC machining and serious Finite Element Analysis of the drivers. It got our first open lattice interior cabinet bracing and first acoustically frameless grille. It’s a very sophisticated product, especially considering its modest $2K class. (In fact many dealers and reviewers told us it would make more market sense at twice its price.) As often mentioned: "they’re not for rockers", and so forth, due to bass output limitations. I have an update for that. The tweeter handles the load, the midrange does quite well, its low end being crossed over an octave higher than the model 3. By the way, Rob has a good drop-in replacement for the midrange. The woofer is only 8", but it’s built to boogie. The main limit is a hard splat of the passive radiator on bass transients. At least that’s what early reviews (John Atkinson in Stereophile) said and we all acquiesced. I never settled with that idea. I had developed that passive radiator which has only a foam plate and two compliant surrounds that glue directly to the front and back of a lip in the baffle. In other words there is nothing for anything to splat against. Hmmm.As was our practice, Jim was headlong into developing the CS3.6 and didn’t look back at the 2’s bass problem. No secret that I’ve been working on updating these classic Thiel speakers for the past few years. My explorations led (via a long spiral route) to outboarding the crossovers while eliminating all magnetic elements (such as mounting screws), leaving only the components themselves on a masonite board; and paying closer attention to stray fields, wire routing and dressing and so forth. Guess what? No splat. I can’t overload them short of cringing. I can’t say I know exactly what was causing the problem except something in the crossover feeding the woofer and possibly midrange. I know the problem was there in spades and now it is reliably gone. And by the way, that big, wooly quality of the bass. Gone too. The CS2.2 can’t move as much air as the CS3 models, but it’s no slouch. So, if you have a chance to get a pair and if you’re interested in making them substantially better in the future, there has been lots of work done toward that end. It’s hard to imagine you being disappointed. |
I have a pair of 2 2s, they were the first Thiels I owned. I got them for a living room system about 10 years ago. I consider them the best audio bargain of my life. They aren't for AC/DC fans but at moderate volumes they're just so enjoyable. They're fantastic for acoustic jazz or classical, any small scale unamplified music. They're clear, relaxing, just slightly warm, I could go on and on. They don't need a ton of power. They were a revelation to me. Over time I had to accept that I preferred them to my far more expensive B&W 802s. I'm sure not as good on paper but if you just want to listen it wasn't even that close. |
ydjames Thank You for the follow up. We have similar weather this time of year. I have read about The Bassface Swing Trio. I will check out "Plays Gershwin". Regarding the Tweeter distortion, if you are experiencing the same aural findings on piano recordings, it could be a loose voice coil. I agree with Tom's thoughts. Consult Rob Gillum at Coherent Service (CSS) in Lexington Kentucky, U.S.A. for a possible re-build of tweeter. Keep me posted on this situation. Happy Listening! |
James - about your perceived distortion. I'm guessing that a recording that is good enough to consider as a reference does not have the type of distortion you are reporting. If it emanates from one channel, swap channels. If it swaps, it's somewhere upstream. Of course I'm guessing, but it sounds like a loose tweeter voice coil. Do you know Rob at Coherent Service? He can help troubleshoot as well as rebuild the driver. |
@jafant The weather in Singapore during this "season" is crazily warm and humid. We are looking at between 31 and 33 degrees Celcius. The good news is that the weather here is predictable most of the time. While the rest of the time, rain duration is unpredictable. It can be as short as 15 minutes, but it can also go on for hours and hours. When I have some time to myself, I'll retreat back to my room listening to music. I listen to quite a wide range of genres. Lately, I have been indulging with this particular album called "Plays Gershwin", by The Bassface Swing Trio. Recommended by some friends, I find the recording to be highly transparent, dynamic, and detailed. Soon, it will become my go-to reference album. However lately, I am beginning to hear more "distortions" from a tweeter when a piano is being played in the music. I am curious if it is a recording distortion or a "breaking up" mode of the tweeter. Sometimes, it can get as bad as cutting through the ambience of the music. On the other hand, I've been thinking if I should get a new driver to replace it. Could you guys help enlighten me? |
ydjames Welcome! Good to see our International Thiel owners. The CS 2.7 is a very fine loudspeaker. Reading these pages, you will find, many Benchmark fans and owners as well. T+A makes fine electronics, especially, DAC8 DSD. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes. How is the weather in Singapore this time of year? Happy Listening! |
Dan - following up on the power part of your amp query. It has always fascinated me that Thiel speakers seem to bring out the worst in many amps. This weekend I interacted with a very knowledgeable long-term Thiel user who stated he had amps that worked with every other speaker, except his Thiel CS2.4s. That rings a bell - it echoes the experience of thousands of users, reviewers, fans and detractors. Why is that? Thiel impedance is low, but it is also highly resistive, which amps love. There are speakers with far more brutal load characteristics, which don’t have Thiel's ’hard to drive’ reputation. Go figure. I have been figuring for decades and have an idea that makes sense to me. Back to some context. I was the set-up guy for many shows. Most of that electricity sucked, and sometimes we even changed rooms to be away from elevators, etc. with very dirty power. Pin that. In the late 80s Thiel built a dedicated music room of some renown with lots of care to proportions, materials, treatment, etc. It had fluorescent lights, air-conditioning and office computers all on the same service, since its footprint was in a 40’ wide industrial space that all shared a single service. Even though we isolated the hi-fi gear on one leg, there were still many reactivities on the line. Our electrical engineer said that the problem was intractable - just live with it. Long story ensues. The solution came via borrowing hi-fi circuits from the next bay, which was used almost exclusively for finished goods storage. That power was cleaner and we hung a sub panel with short runs to the hi-fi system. The system performance was improved more than normal people would imagine. I am presently studying the mechanisms that might cause such mischief. My working hypothesis is that various design(er)s manage the various line distortions more or less effectively than others. Those design(er)s who understand the effects of dirty power can minimize the problems within their chassis. It seems a major component of the problem includes the differences between the high (+) leg and the neutral leg at or near ground potential; but it rarely actually is at zero due to losses and interactions in the feed wires. I have always been puzzled by how some / most equipment sounds so much better when run from 240 volts rather than 120. One explanation is that 240 volt is a real balanced feed with each leg running 180° out of polarity and the ground centered between them. Circuits see symmetrical power. Some snooping has led me to investigate recording studio power. High end venues often mix, master, etc. on the graveyard shift. Audibly better recordings result. As I rebuild my studio in a new location, I intend to run a sub-panel with both 240 volt and 120 volt outlets. Performance can be easily compared by swapping the IEC cord for 120 or 240 volt feeds. Can’t wait to learn. A seemingly optimal 120 volt solution is to use balanced power as is used in many labs and studios. An isolation transformer is tapped for 60 volts plus and minus rather than the usual 120+ and zero. I like the concept, have heard good reports, and would like to have that solution in my bailiwick - but it seems quite expensive. One bottom line from these musings is that buying an amp that can be tapped for 240 balanced power input might give you a leg up in bypassing a lot of power problems and getting good sound more reliably. These explorations feel right to me; they address many unsolved mysteries about why or how Thiel can sound bad when other speakers sound good. The other half of this equation is my personal belief that Phase Coherent transducers invite the audio cortex to scrutinize sound as though it is real, rather than an electronic facsimile. Our felt judgement is far more acute for ’real’ sounds than manufactured ones. My first exposure to this phenomenon was in developing the 03 in 1978 - we wrestled with this phenomenon for a year and a half and learned that we had to "fix" problems for coherent presentation that weren’t even on the radar when a higher order crossover was substituted. I know I’ve addressed this idea before, but I’m repeating for those new to the forum or to raise some issues that might connect some dots for folks beyond myself. |
Hi guys, I apologise for being late to the party. I was aware only when this thread popped up as a result of a google search, and this would be my first post in the forum. I have read a few pages in this thread and I am amazed at some of the system configurations of fellow owners have with their Thiel speakers. To share more about my system, I have the CS2.7 driven by Benchmark AHB2 mono, Benchmark LA4 preamp, T+A DAC 8 DSD, and a Windows PC running ROON Server (upsampling all of my music playbacks to DSD512). I've got this pair well loved CS2.7 finished in ebony, through a close friend of mine, and I have it for almost a year now. James From Singapore |
Dan - that is quite a system you’ve got going. I have no direct experience with your prospective amp models, but note that they all look great for current delivery and the brands pass the sniff test. But you knew that. Good work. I have two general thoughts: power supply and the 1.7. I’ll address system power later. I have observed that the CS1.7 may not be as advertised. Jim had his CS 1.7 nearly ready to go when he died, which then simmered behind the 2.7 in the last few years of Original Thiel outsourced product development. New Thiel changed the 1.7 design significantly, replacing Jim’s first order crossover with "high order" (probably 4th), and introducing a 2db/decade slope down from bass to treble - a standard PSB-type crossover. I also read that the tweeter sports a "new voice coil and re-designed motor". That sounds suspiciously like a normal overhung tweeter, again standard industry fare available from suppliers, whereas Thiel’s underhung drivers were made in-house. The underhung motor exhibits an order of magnitude less onset transient distortion and a completely symmetrical push-pull linearity - albeit at the expense of greater manufacturing cost, lower efficiency requiring a larger magnet, and greater hazard of burn-out due to voice coil geometry. I don’t know whether the woofer also opted for a "normal" motor rather than Jim’s design specialties. I have queried Rob for further insight. In the past he said to me of the 1.7 "It’s not Jim’s work". The 1.7 caused a parting of ways for the first team of New Thiel which included Steve DeFuria, a long-time industry insider who had collaborated with Thiel over its entire life-span. Steve objected to New Thiel calling the 1.7 a "Coherent Source", the application of a house curve, and allowing reviewers to represent it as a first order, phase coherent transducer. Notice that Stereophile among others never reviewed the 1.7 - I’ve been told that they didn’t want to play New Thiel’s game. I am not disparaging the performance of the 1.7. I am told that by conventional standards applied to normal speakers that they have been called "more refined than previous Thiels". Do any of you here in Thiel-land know how the CS1.7’s step response looks? |
dancastagna An incredible system in the making! Those amp(s) are heavy hitters to be sure. You have a tough decision my Audiophile friend. All Amp(s) are special in their own way. At this level of price-performance, take time to visit dealers/retailers to audition. Of the considerations listed, I have only auditioned Mark Levinson and D'Agostino models. Each were matched w/ corresponding pre-amps (same brand). Very musical and powerful. Endless current for driving a Thiel loudspeaker. Over on Audio Asylum, John Ellison, drives his CS 3.7 with Parasound gear exclusively. Read up on his postings if interested. I cannot comment on the Krell Trio 300. It certainly has the specs to drive a pair of CS 3.7 loudspeakers. Keep me posted on your findings. Happy Listening! |
I have heard other variants of the brands you have listed. The KRELL and ML are the 2 I liked. I had done some amps swaps with the Thiel 3.7 in the last 6 months and this maybe useful for you or others. The best amp was the Benchmark AHB2 in stereo and mono. However, it was also the worst because it had less power in the 2 Ohm than the others I tested. So I loved the sound of it the most but it lacked that low grunt or power that the others possessed. The next 2 were equally good - KRELL K-300i integrated, very smooth and killer bass - CODA CSib integrated, did everything well D-Sonic M3A 800s Class D ($1500) - surprisingly good. Maybe not as refined on top but it showed me that tons of power are appreciated by the Thiel CS3.7 - I bought my final amp for the Thiel CS3.7 a few days ago. It is the CODA #8. I will get delivery in 4 weeks. I plan to rotate the CODA #8 with the Benchmark AHB2 (likely in stereo mode) with the CODA 07x preamp and the Benchmark HPA4 preamp. A very easy task and something I was already doing with the D-Sonic and a single AHB2. The CODA #8 replaces the D-Sonic. The CODA #8 is rated anywhere from 600 watts to 1200 watts at 2 Ohm depending on the version one buys (1, 2, or 3). |
Hi Everyone, Been awhile since i looked in here mainly because I didn't have a system up and didn't want to think about it. I now have a great room that i have claimed. Finally a dedicated Home Theater 2 channel room. I have everything but amps and wanted to get your opinion on the few i have found, my main concern is the front three which will also be my two channel set up, so there are a couple 3 channel amps and a few 5 channel amps that might work. 1- Mark Levinson 533H 3ch by 300 8ohm 600 4 ohm 2- Krell TRIO 300 3 ch 300- 8ohm 600 -4ohm 3- Parasound Halo A-51 five ch This plays first 7 to 10 watts in pure A 250 -8ohm 500- 4ohm 4- Dan D'Agostino Master Power 3+ 300- 8ohm 600- 4ohms 5- McIntosh MC303 Three Channel 300w in all ohms These are what i can find used the other speakers are easy to find the same brand, except the Dan Dagostino that i would need to get another brand amp I'm running 3.7 for 2 ch/left&right Center MCS1 L&R rear cs1.7 4 atmos power point 1.2 and center surround power plane 1.2 4 SS2 subs Anyone have any preference out of these 5 amps?? Any other suggestions? I am so pumped to finally put this together. Thank you Dan |
@johnhh, Please note the following: Thiel CS1.5 Owner's Information (Page 5 of 6) | ManualsLib CAP-101 - Integrated Amplifier - Classé Audio Support (classeaudio.com) Classé CAP-100 integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com The CS 1.5's is a honey of a speaker for a small room. They still need to be, like the bigger models in the line up, placed somewhat out from surrounding walls and still be at least 8' from the listening position. As a design decision, that makes some academic sense, but I question the practicality of such placement requirements in the typical small spaces in which they will be used. In any event, they should work quite nicely indeed in your smaller 12 X 15 room, but for the 24 X 24 room, a larger, even if older model Thiel might be more appropriate. In addition the power requirements might be quite different. Note that the CS 1.5's drop to about 3 Ohms, while not brutal, still demanding. Not typically where intergrateds thrive. While there are a few very expensive exceptions, many intergrateds are not capable of doubling down with impedance like their separates counterparts. Additionally, intergrateds tend to drop their more linear Class A output bias into lower impedance loads at a faster rate than their separates counterparts. It is a mistake to assume that intergrateds are just compacted versions of their separates counterparts. Thiel recommended quality amps rated between 50 and 150 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms for the CS 1.5's, with the understanding that these quality amps could double down into impedances. That would be about 150 to 450 Watts into the minimum 3 Ohm load of the Thiel CS 1.5's. It's not likely one will find a 3 Ohm ratings, but the amplifiers capable of doubling down into 2 Ohms will most likely make claim to it in their specs. If it's not there, they're probably not capable of it. To be safe; look for amps that have ratings of between 200 and 600 Watts into 2 Ohms. Room size and sound volume will ultimately determine power requirements. For the your small 12 X 15 room the lower power figures will probably suffice, but for your larger 24 X 24 room consideration, more power will probably be desired. Though often promoted by dealers as a good match, the Classe' Cap 101 and Thiel CS 1.5's combination was probably more of a marketing match. After all, the more capable Classe' separates worked well with many of the larger Thiels. While the Classe' Cap 101 is within spitting distance of the minimum suggested power at close to the actual impedance load, we can see from the specs that it appears to be struggling to up power into a 4 Ohm load with just a 40% increase in power from 8 Ohms into 4 Ohms, instead of the desired 100% increase. I think it fair to assume that the expected power increase into the CS 1.5's 3 Ohm load the Cap 101 will be compromised. The above linked measurements of the earlier Classe' Cap 100 shows that it blew a fuse when delivering only 200 of the 400 Watts expected into 2 Ohms when driving only one channel. Put another way; a half the 8 Ohm rated Krell KSA 50* power amp will handle the CS 1.5 impedance load better. Don't be fooled into thinking you might be covered with a "stable into 2 Ohms" disclaimer. That only means the amp won't go into oscillation when presented with a 2 Ohm load. That could mean that the amp just shuts itself off before blowing up. It doesn't suggest how much power, at what linearity, with how much distortion, or how it will actually sound at 2 Ohms. In your 12 X 15 room you might get OK results, but should you want to use the 24 X 24 room you might find the Classe' CAP 101 wanting. * Krell KSA-50 power amplifier Specifications | Stereophile.com |
I just added goertz mi 2 speaker cables to my system after using monster cable for the last 25 yrs.I was pleasantly surprised with the difference I can hear subtle details that I didn’t hear before I bought resistors and capacitors and made my own zobel networks which I jumped on the speaker side I had my 16 yr old son and his cousin do an A/B comparison test same song,volume, and listening position and they also agreed it sounded better |
Professional tape machines suffer in modern comparisons because they're all at least 25 years old, with technology and electronics that are even older. Whether multi-track or 2-track mixdown, most of the mechanical parts are worn-out and unavailable, the electronics are also worn-out and old-school parts and circuit designs. Few remember how to maintain and calibrate (daily) the studio decks. Finding decent tape is a challenge. I'm sure only a handful of studios worldwide have an analog recording chain that's working as well as it was in 1980. And what artist wants to pay the far greater price to record true analog? I sure wish it were otherwise, as I'm sure if analog studio gear had kept pace with everything else the past few decades, the choice of all-digital for ease of recording, near-zero cost, and improving-yearly sonics wouldn't be quite as stark. Ironically, when I see a current album was recorded AAA, I'm concerned about the health of the entire analog signal chain and their intentions when the best digital gear can make recordings that will exceed worn-out analog recorders and signal chains :-( I've seen the recent revival of prosumer (and pro) 2-track R2R for the ultimate in home playback, but most of them are fully redesigned (playback) electronics and rebuilt or remachined mechanicals. And I'm never sure how and from where they're sourcing their not-inexpensive tapes... |
John - there's a parallel phenomenon happening in the pro world around tape recorders. A great recorder can be a holy grail for a recordist, especially one with analog vinyl as their target playback medium. Recordists post their epitome tapes for comparison against modern signal chains, often to significant embarrassment of sloppy performance. In 1980 the tape machine might have been king. But it can really suffer in comparison to best of form contemporary technologies. Some folks here have studied integrated amps and have good advice to give. |
johnhh " what I wanted back then " When getting back into listening to vinyl I tried to go back and build my dream system from the 80's all Carver electronics and all American where posible . I had re-capped both the amp and pre-amp , installed new RCA connectors and speaker posts and yes they sounded better BUT they were still did not sound as good as I had dreamed of , or should I say they still were not up to modern sounding equipment . I know there are now 199 pages in this thread but you'll find many good suggestions on amps that match well with Thiel speakers , good luck . |
