devinplombier
Scratch that- you do not have a message option on your account?
For your consideration- there are (2) pairs of CS5i loudspeakers offered by High Performance Stereo in the Miami FL area. Walnut finish plus Wood crates for shipping. Keep me posted on buying decision.
Happy Listening!
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devinplombier
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for another Thiel Audio history lesson. I hope that you are well and ready for Fall.
Happy Listening!
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@tomthiel Got it, thanks for clarifying. Looking at pics of both subwoofer versions the difference is clear now. Thank you.
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devinplombier - guess that was somewhat dense. Let's try again.
If the 2 subwoofers have visible rubber mats on their cones, they have not been upgraded to CS5i status because the CS5i MDF plug replaced the rubber mats for mass loading.
The MDF plug looks like a small hockey puck where the dust cap used to be. Those plug drivers have the new motors, and at the same time the woofers and lower midrange were replaced with the new motor version, even though those 2 drivers look the same as the original CS5.
Rob says the 5 to 5i upgrades were all in 4-driver sets, so there probably aren't any mix and match hybrids around.
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I understand the concept of time.
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@tomthiel Thank you for this fantastic write-up of the differences between the two versions.
Most CS5 owners upgraded to the CS5i.
Great to know that some of the CS5 out there may actually be functionally equivalent to CS5i
The only visual difference between the 5 and 5i is the mass loading of the subwoofers. The original rubber mats proved troublesome via eventual corner lifting of of the mats. The 5i MDF center plugs perform the same loading function without the hassles.
I read this a few times and I am still a little confused. First thing that came to mind was a MDF brace at the back of the woofer motor, but you say the difference is visible so that couldn’t be it. If you could clarify what the difference looks like, that would be really great. Also, would that difference be there in CS5 that have been upgraded to CS5i spec, or just in factory CS5i? Thank you!
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I'm not the only one to appreciate the Cambridge 840w as monoblocks. Doug Schroeder reviewed them that way when they came out and thought they were exceptional, describing them as "the best sounding SS amps I have used regardless of cost." I'm not a reviewer and haven't heard dozens of amps in my system but I've never been tempted to upgrade. They replaced a pair of Classe CA200s and I thought they were better than those. This system is so good I'm never really tempted to replace any of it. If anything I'd upgrade the room treatment but it hasn't been a priority since kids. I think I'd have to spend a fortune to get a significant upgrade and I'd miss the money more than enjoy the improvement if there even was one.
Cambridge Audio Azur 840E Preamplifier & 840W Monoblock Amplifiers Review - Dagogo
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The CS5 was designed 'on demand', most notably for the Japanese market which wanted a 'Hear God' loudspeaker from Thiel. As such, the CS5 displaced a potential CS4 which would have been an incremental advance over the CS3.5. The CS5 was also on a forced time-table because the market was brimming with new 'statement' models from many manufacturers. Contrary to street talk, the CS5 was not a 'price no object' product. It respected and solidified Thiel's approach to working within budgets determined by eschewing superfluous costs and concentrating on high-value, cost-effective solutions. Our internal, working retail target was $15K/pair, but by trimming fat, we brought it to market at $9300/pair. As manufacturing director, I advocated unsuccessfully for a higher price with further enhancements - notably more advanced cabinet construction.
By 1988, Jim had taken the plunge into Finite Element Analysis which he applied to driver design to develop many solutions that subsequently became embedded in the industry at large. His first FEA-enhanced design was the 1988 CS1.2 tweeter with a copper voice-coil shorting ring which shunted voice coil eddy currents to meaningfully increase onset transient integrity. That driver paved the way for the more ambitious CS5 UltraTweeter with underhung motor topology and 1/10th the distortions of previously available drivers (at any price.) The UltraTweeter served the CS5, CS5i, CS3.6, and CS2.2. It was dead-ended by our choice of coaxial tweeter-midranges to solve the inherent vertical interference problem of first order x time-aligned drivers. The CS5 upper midrange was an off-the-shelf MB-Quart 51mm dome. Those two top drivers are the same in the original CS5 and the later improved CS5i version.
The CS5i applied newly developed motor changes to the lower midrange, woofer and two subwoofers. Specifically, we had identified pole-piece eddy currents as a previously invisible, but sonically important distortion mechanism. The first-generation solution was to taper the diameter of the pole piece from its required diameter at the voice coil, gradually diminishing toward the motor back plate to better manage the magnetic fields. These improvements were made possible by developing our in-house driver development lab in the early 1990s. We iterated dozens of proof of concept drivers with 1-day turnaround rather than 1 month turnarounds working with our Danish (Vifa / ScanSpeak) supply partners. We made all elements including cones which we spun with our shop-made mechanical/hydraulic spinner. The hand built prototype driver was driven 40 miles to Eminence Speaker who had made our 01 / 03 woofers and had the first Klippel development system in North America. They authenticated / verified our lab measurement results and projected Thiele / Small parameters.
Bottom line is that we upgraded the motors of the Focal lower midrange, and ScanSpeak woofer and subwoofers with tapered pole-pieces and tapered-edge top plates. Those drivers use the same moving system and crossover circuitry as the original CS5 while substantially improving fidelity. Most CS5 owners upgraded to the CS5i. That upgrade kit included the 4 new, drop-in drivers only.
Rob at CSS has no CS5i drivers, but he does offer moving system replacements which are the same for the CS5 and CS5i. The only visual difference between the 5 and 5i is the mass loading of the subwoofers. The original rubber mats proved troublesome via eventual corner lifting of of the mats. The 5i MDF center plugs perform the same loading function without the hassles. If you find a pair of original 5s, the bottom 4 drivers have state-of-the-art 1988 technology. The CS5i subs, woofer and lower-midrange drivers substantially better that performance in the low end.
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devinplombier
The Panel is very resourceful here. A pair of CS 5i may show up sooner than you think. Stay tuned.
Happy Listening!
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@duramax747 Thank you for the explanation.
I would like to own a pair of these speakers at least once, but they don't come up all that often so it's more of a wish list thing. Thank you!
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duramax747
Thank You for sharing your expertise on CS5/CS5i loudspeaker.
Happy Listening!
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jon_5912
That is all that matters. Happy Listening!
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I have better sources, I like the video I think it adds to the experience. My trusty Cambridge 840s are still doing great as monoblocks. Benchmark DAC 2 is good enough for me. Bryston BP26 preamp is also good enough for me. I just want to be able to enjoy the music. This system is great for me.
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devinplombier
Think of it like the CS 7 to CS 7.2 conversion. Same cabinet but drivers upgraded and vital cover parts. In the CS5i the bass drivers were upgraded.
The CS5i is the way to go. With the right amps and room it would take a considerable amount os scratch to better them. After the future upgrades that will be offered that will be even harder to accomplish.
They go lower than any sealed cabinet speaker on the market still I believe. I have two pair in walnut and rosewood and they hit like a hammer in the bass.
This is my personal favorite Thiel speaker. I'm tweaking the room for them to perform at an even higher level.
Again monster amps to clear the throat from these beasts. The front baffle is incredible. Never have I seen one like this before.
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devinplombier
Welcome! Good to see you here today. We have a few fans/owners of model CS5/CS5i loudspeakers here on The Panel. Stay tuned until one of our experts chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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Hi everyone, I am curious about the differences between CS5 and CS5i. I couldn't find the info online so I thought I'd ask here. CS5 are rare on the market and CS5i even more so. Thanks in advance!
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jon_5912
Not weirdo at all. What gear is in your System?
Happy Listening!
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Sorry, I didn't do that. Yes, I see it, and it's badly dented. He should disclose that.
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^^^You have to zoon in the pictures to see.
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@andy2
How can you see that? The pictures don't get nearly close enough to see the tweeter in detail.
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jafant,
I was only referencing amps in my experience how I came to become a Thiel owner. It wasnt intended to tout one amp over the other.
The point to walkway with is, high current amps perform much better with the Thiel’s. Thats how they were designed. What brand one chooses is on them.
When one thinks their amp seems to perform well there is no further thought that really goes into it. When they get the opportunity to hear a higher current amp then they will know what they have been missing.
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Hi All! I will be selling a pair of CS3.6 through the Music Room in September. They are Birds Eye maple. If anyone is interested in the Colorado area, let me know.
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duramax747
Nice points all around. Not every Audiophile can set-up the infrastructure for a Krell power amp. Some models require more planning than others. I look forward to meeting you in the future.
Happy Listening!
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unsound,
Good point. When I went to Lexington, Thiel had the Krell FPB 700cx powering a pair of CS 7.2. Could Pass 250.8 amps be used? Sure. Will they have the dynamic headroom or slam the larger amp has? No way.
ronkent,
Glad to hear you are enjoying your VK-80. I’m seriouisly considering a VK-90 myself as BAT gear mates well with Thiel.
velocityofhue,
Great amp for your CS 2.4
Years ago I was in Nashville and stopped into a Thiel dealer. they had the CS 7.2 on display mated with Mac 1kw amps.
I sat and listened to the dealers arraged playlist. After a few tracks I asked if they would mind if I went to my vehicle to retrieve a few cd’s I had that I’d like to listen too. They said "sure"
I gave them the cd and they asked which track and I said just hit play as it doesnt matter. As it started to play I turned up the volume at a decent volume to fill the room. I saw a nervous look on saleman’s face as the red clipping light started to flash. Shortly after I ended the audition and excused myself and thanked them for the opportunity to listen.
Immediately after leaving the store I jumped on I-75 to Lexington where I heard the same CS7.2 with the Krell FPB 700cx amp. I thought I was listning to a different speaker it was so different. The authority the speakers possessed with a rock solid bottom end with no grain or grit on top was ear opening.
My point. If I would have left my first experience regarding Thiel speakers with that audition in Nashville I would have never bought Thiel speakers. When I heard what the right amp could do it was what the man himself, Jim Thiel, wanted his lesteners to hear.
Now I have a stable of Thiel speakers that I can switch out any given day because of Thiel selecting the right amp for their speakers.
Amps matter.
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Per unsound above and along with the cs3.6 and cs3.7s, Thiel cs5, cs5i, cs6, cs7, and cs7.2 impedance loads are down around 2-3 ohms and demand a powerful amp. Yes there are all makes and types of amps but make sure to power your big Thiels properly as you can’t just go buy a new pair anymore. Existing speakers aren’t as numerous and finding original replacement parts is more challenging.
Be careful with your cs2.3 and cs2.4s as well for the same reasons.
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Regarding amps for the 3.7's which i have owned since 2018, i have had great success with the PS Audio BHK amps (both stereo and then mono blocks), and a Coda 16. I wrote about this preamp earlier, but the introduction of the BAT VK-80 completely transformed the sound of my system. i greatly prefer it over the three previous preamps (Pass, PS, Coda) that i had been using. https://balancedaudio.net/vk-80-preamp
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thieliste
Thank You for citing Jadis and VAC tubed gear for CS 3.7 loudspeaker. Add P.S. Audio to the list as well.
Happy Listening!
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velocityofhue
Thank You for citing B.A.T. VK-600 & CS 2.4 loudspeakers. While I have not heard B.A.T. products, I can vouch for the Pass Labs X150.8 power amp and CS 2.4 speakers.
Happy Listening!
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Must have high quality upstream electronics. I've listened to Thiel CS6 at a friends w/classe mono blocks and it sounded bright. Room setup & speaker placement could have been partly to blame.
My CS2.4 Speakers sounded bright before I got BAT VK-600 @ 300w per channel.
Even recently my new PASS X150.8 amp isn't as enjoyable to hear as the Balanced Audio Technology. Something about not only the high frequency but a glorious sweet sounding full midrange. The pass is a very fine amplifier and does have its own secret sauce but with another speaker perhaps...
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@andy2 CS 3.7s tend to be bright, in my experience poweful tube amps like VAC or Jadis is what works best for them.
I have tried many different SS amps in the past few years and there was always something missing with my 3.7s.
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andy2
Very nice System! A pair of Thiel loudspeakers will fit quite well. Keep me posted on your purchase decision.
Happy Listening!
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What Gear is in your current set-up?
DAC: Ayre QB9
Pre: Pass Labs X10
Amp: Sim Audio W7
Speakers: Home made
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andy2
Good to see you again. Stay tuned until one of the Panel's CS 3.6 & CS 3.7 speaker experts chimes in to address your query.
What Gear is in your current set-up?
Happy Listening!
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There currently a pair of CS3.6 at Audiogon. Quite tempting.
Could anyone compared the CS3.6 to CS3.7? I've heard the earlier Thiel tends to sound a little bright.
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biannuzzi22
Keep us posted if you purchase the CS7 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening!
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Tom D - theaudiotweaktheaudiotweak
All the factors you mention led us away from ports except for small / inexpensive speakers. A passive radiator obviates most of the problems you cite. For those ported models, my new work introduces both surface flow and film resonators to make the port very much more ideal. The difference is significant. Those technologies are suitable for any / all ported speakers. I hope to have beta-ready trial kits this year.
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Thank you for the info about the CS7!
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velocityofhue
Thank You for the CS7 follow up and link.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the Thiel history lesson on CS7 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening!
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