One week in and loving the 1.5's Looking for 2.4's, 2.7's or 3.7's. If anyone has any leads.
Thanks,
Greg
Thanks,
Greg
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
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The 2.4's were on Audiogon under "new today" and I snapped them up for 2k. They are a one owner pair, cherry, in very nice condition. The speaker caps are not even dented. It'll be fun to compare them to the CS6's. Does anyone know if Rob is still refinishing thiels? At this price, I could even consider getting them refinished.. |
jon_5912- Good to see you again. I know shortly after JT died, many long-term dealers/retailers quit placing orders on new speakers. (2) such operations that I know about are Goldprint Audio in NC and Audio Alternative in Atlanta (now HiFi Buys of Atlanta). I spoke w/ these guys a few years ago and there does not seem to be any interest in stocking the post-JT offerings. Hope this helps you. Happy Listening! |
Listening to the Thiel 3.7s again last night...boy I don’t know if I can give these things up! It’s amazing the degree to which you can dial in a speaker (especially like the 3.7) to one’s taste - far field, near field, toed in, toed out. As I’ve said the 3.7’s wide, even dispersion allows me to have them very wide apart, quite close to me, and faced almost straight ahead. The balance I get is lush and warm, with an utterly massive width and depth to the soundstage, yet with perfectly dense, focused imaging of all the voices and instruments across that span. Anyone who ever doubted that the Thiels could sound warm, lush and inviting hasn’t heard what they can do when set up that way. I listened to some live Everything But The Girl - they do lots of quiet, solemn music with one or two guitars being played, and the voices and acoustic/electric guitars were just astonishingly warm, human and clear. I played some Joanna Newsome (talk about an acquired taste! Her voice! But that harp playing!) and her harp simply "appears" a out 4 feet behind the speakers, as if she has just beamed down into my room to play for me. At least in my experience, certain instances like this are probably the most tactile sonic reproduction I've ever heard from an audio system. (I'm not saying other systems can't do it - of course they can - but simply in my own experience with many speaker systems, and hearing many show and store systems, it's among the best I've heard with certain recordings). I have an audiophile pal - who writes for an online audio mag - who said the first time he heard the Thiel 3.7s at an audio show it sent him running from the room - too bright and aggressive! But when he comes over to listen to my 3.7s he is thoroughly pleased by completely smooth and gorgeous they sound. I’d told him that (due to ergonomic issues I’ve mentioned earlier) I may be looking to replace them with a smaller speaker, but after he heard a couple of cuts played on the 3.7s he turned to me incredulous "And you intend to get better sound than THIS...how???" I told him, I don’t intend to get better sound. Not for anything remotely close to the price and I’ll probably never have better sound than I have with my current Thiel set up. That’s just a pill I’ll have to swallow (IF I sell them...) |
Whilst I am awaiting the arrival of my 3.6's and the fellow member to pick up my 3.5's I have been working a pair of Acarian Alon ll's just for the heck of it - got 'em purty cheap from a bricks and mortar retailer/occasional seller here on the site. Fortunately I had a pair of Transparent bi-wire cables in my inventory/snake pit of cables left over from some previous 'speriment, so I hooked them up ... They'd been in the store for over a year and they were a little dusty, dull-looking, but only needed a little cleaning and TLC that included about 6 coats of tung oil. They show their age but now look swell. The store owner related that the woofer was designed to emulate the old Advent woofer - a very cool piece of history. They're a suitable stop gap between the Thiels coming and going. They're definitely not "bright" sonically, the bass is tighter than I had anticipated, the mids are very well defined if not as well defined as a Thiel - but they ain't Thiel so... They're fun. They're temporary. I'll probably toss em up here on the site when my 3.6 get here - at the same price I paid for them. |
oblgny That is a coincidence...My previous surround system had all Alon speakers. Very nice sounding. Smooth and open....but not Thiels as you said.I still have all of them and need to sell eventually. I have the Lotus Elite fronts (Saloon door looking) with LCR Grand center and Alon Petite rears. They were very enjoyable. |
@schubert Well, I guess if you consider a Jim Thiel-designed speaker to be an extremely accurate transducer of an input signal, then they should be fine with any kind of music, with consideration given to a particular model's frequency limitation. I chose Thiels decades ago, without knowing any of the technical aspects of the speakers, at the time. They were the most convincing with recorded acoustic instruments. e.g. guitars, violins, and piano. They just sounded "right", where everything else was "not quite right". |
Precisely! saffron_boots models CS 2.4 and up to the 3.7 are damn right scary at the accuracy of instrument 's inherent frequency/transduction. I can still remember (vividly) my 1st taste of Thiel loudspeakers via the CS 2.4- after a few "numbers" to get acclimated w/ the speaker, I remarked, "I now know and understand Audio reviewers interpretation of instruments' timbre in time and space". In other words, hearing the brass on horns or wood on the guitar body. Such realism w/ these speakers. |
saffron... Since I listen to a fairly wide assortment of music I've purchased loudspeakers that I assume will be able to faithfully reproduce any genre I toss at 'em. Such is not necessarily a truism, and lately with very few bricks and mortar hifi shops remaining, almost impossible to audition. Within my sometimes constrained/free wheeling budget the only speakers that continue to keep my interest are Thiels, and Maggies - in that order. I've heard a few different Wilsons, B&W, Focal and a few others that are well above my budget, but when I consider their price find it difficult to justify the expense. One cannot find a superior value in a loudspeaker than Thiel. So so far as their ability to handle multiple genres of music well, I've yet to find another manufacturer that does everything so well that by comparison makes it so damn difficult/impossible to part with. A little Aaron Copland, some Son Volt, perhaps an hour with The Hold Steady, followed with an extended visit with Thelonious Monk, finishing up with Herbie Hancock's Joni recording... Cool beans! |
jafant... The real impression will be made when the 3.6's arrive. As for now with the 3.5's the Neo strikes me as being slightly warmer in overall tonality, perhaps slightly more emphatic in the bass region. Again, this being compared with the Pass X150.5/B. A. T. VK3i separates setup I had until recent. To say that I've barely broken the Neo in is an understatement - they suggest a more extended period than I've been able to muster thus far. The 3.5's require separates to be fully enjoyed with the bass eq employed. I had a Primare A32 integrated that posed me with the same issue I have with the Neo - can't employ the bass eq due to lack of inputs. Nonetheless, once I raised the volume to a higher level than I normally listen at the Thiels were quite happy, immediately revealing how good the Neo is overall and, as I've said before, how Thiels reveal. The Pass attained the same sort of definition at a lower volume level methinks, but this is not for me an issue where I'll be moaning again about selling off a beloved amplifier. I have to believe that when the Neo is broken in I'll have less to think about comparatively and more to enjoy sonically/musically. Obviously, Thiel will take a lot of responsibility for this - they're just so damned good. I am so utterly familiar with Ginger Baker's "Cyril Davis" off of the album "Why?" that I use it as a reference point for evaluating my stuff. (There is also "Cyril Davies" off of "Falling Off The Roof" which is essentially the same tune performed differently.) Being so attuned to either cut I believe is a fair method of reaching an opinion. The Neo didn't miss a note - albeit at a slightly higher volume. It was all present. Another point of pleasure is the size of the Neo. I no longer have to wrestle that 60 pound Pass when I tinker with cables, etc. I've increased the weight of the speakers however, from 70 pounds of the 3.5's to 107 pounds with the soon-to-arrive 3.6's. C'est la vie...I've actually purchased a hand-truck, covered it with insulation foam to position them! Is that a "mod"? Anyone else here with a lifestyle accommodation to keep Thiel rocking? |
Thanks Fellas, I'll keep my eyes open for some 2.7, 3.7 . they sometimes show up on craigslist in Twin Cities. I noticed a lot of you like maggies, As I sit here 5 miles from factory although I loved the 4 prs I had I just had to give up on them as dynamic range was not there for Symphonic . Loud ain't the same thing . |
michaeljbrown, My 3.7's are: 7.10 inches apart. Face mostly straight ahead. 6 1/2 feet from speakers to my head. And they sound even better if I lean in a bit more. I keep wanting to go more nearfield :-) BTW, as to setting up: With the Thiels, as with just about every other speaker I've owned, I prefer not to have them toed in toward me. Of course the more toed in they are, the more focused the image and the more brilliant the high frequencies become. But what I perceive is a brightening sort of across the whole sound - sort of like there is a whitening applied to everything. It's exciting to the ear, but to me individual timbral qualities start to actually homogenize somewhat with this bright scrim sprayed over everything. As I toe out that "whiteness" starts to dissolve, the deeper tones of, say, an acoustic guitar, come more into view, the sound gets a bit fuller, the imaging more rich and spacious. But I don't like a "dark" rolled off sound - I like a believably extended airy top end. So I play with toe in and my distance from the speaker to maintain a believable sparkle (e.g. acoustic guitar, drum cymbals etc) but also get that richness of higher midrange info. This is also where moving closer to the speakers comes in to play. From a greater distance, you get more "detail" by toing the speaker in, getting that high frequency energy. But, again, to me it sounds more "hi-fi." As I move closer to nearfield, yet toeing the speakers outward, I'm not getting "hyped" type of detail of bright frequencies, but rather I'm reducing room induced influence and hash, getting closer to the recording, and therefore hearing that super low level detail in the recording. So for instance, a recording of acoustic guitar will be more relaxed, fuller, with a more natural sense of detail where I just hear the sound of fleshy fingers plucking strings as I would real life, not "hi-fi." But, it's not for everyone. I think you get the greatest dynamics, "punch" and bass depth when further away from the speakers. Fortunately the Thiels are by nature pretty dynamic, and keep a lot of that character even when moved close. |
Prof, I'm running out of cable when I move these CS6's to me: I guess I need to move to them. Also, moving these 140 lb beasts is not an easy task! I do like them further from the back wall: now I have them 63" from the back walls & 8ft apart. My room is 27' x 18 with two big skylights and a fireplace! How's that for room dynamics? I really like these 6's. I see no need to spring for 3.7's; I have noticed my bass improving with the move. The more room behind the speakers, the more bass I'm getting. |
jafant, -- "prof and michaeljbrown sit those speakers 7-9 feet apart for best effect. Toe-in may be required as well. Otherwise, kick back and enjoy the music!" --- Check out my post just above yours. I already have mine just under 8 feet apart. No toe in required (or desired). After a couple years dialing the 3.7s I have a pretty good idea of how to get them singing in my room ;-) Cheers! |
Shubert, Thiel's don't really favor any genre of music, but as Thiel's are less colored and closer to laboratory grade instruments than most other speakers, they will reveal the truths (more on this later) before them. Thiel's aren't necessarily better than other speakers in any specific audiophile ways, but completive with all of those audiophile speakers in all the various characteristics (with proper equipment and set up) without the downsides of those speakers that are one and two trick ponies. They are extremely balanced in everything they do. The only limiting factors are room and what precedes them. IME, classical music tends to be better recorded than most popular music. With proper room size and dimensions, and ancillary equipment (especially amplification) the larger Thiels they can excel at symphonic music. If the recordings had microphones placed deep within pianos or immediately above the violins, the lack of time for the sound to bloom can lead to perceived hardness. Sometimes to truth isn't so pretty. But I for one prefer that over the syrupy, rose colored glasses perception that other speakers seem to gloss over everything that comes through them, whether they need the it or not. All Thiels need to be at least 8' from speaker directly to listener for proper driver integration, and the time coherence that is such an integral part of the Thiel designs. |
Glad to hear that Prof; I'm happily listening to the soundtrack album of "I'm Not There" a 2007 movie of Dylans' life as seen through different characters eyes.. 2 disks of some great interpretations of Dylan's songs.. I've settled in at 8 ft apart and 10.5 feet from the speakers. The soundstage is spot on behind the CS6's... My work is done! |
unsound, Your comments are excellent regarding the sound of the Thiels. (Though, again, associated amplification/position/acoustics can come into play, of course). But I hope you don’t mind if I take some issue with a statement like this: ---"All Thiels need to be at least 8’ from speaker directly to listener for proper driver integration, and the time coherence that is such an integral part of the Thiel designs." ---- That is clearly advice given with helpful intent, and no doubt some theoretical rational behind it. However, if I had taken such admonitions for keeping 8 feet from the Thiels I may very well not have bought my 3.7s. I’m as fanatical about coherence as any other audiophile you’ll meet (starting off with the Quad ESL 63s will do that to you). So coherency is vital for my listening. I’d seen this "you need to keep a good distance for driver integration in the Thiels" stated before, so I worried somewhat about the Thiels being right for me as my room forces a closer seating distance, which is my preference anyway. The first thing is it didn’t really jive with my previous experience of the Thiel CS6’s. I can’t remember the distance exactly, but it was closer than 8 feet and they sounded terrific. And before buying the 3.7s, I contacted another audiogon member who said the 3.7s at 7ft from his listening position sounded perfect. Wes Philip who raved about the 3.7s in Stereophile’s sat only 7 1/2 feet from the Thiels. Further, if you read JA’s measurements, you’ll see that getting waveform coherence is more about situating at the right height relative to the tweeter/mid, rather than distance. At a height of 34" and only 50" away, the output of all the drive units arrive at the same time, for a proper step response. In terms of presenting a seamlessly integrated sound, this meshes with my experience in dialing in the 3.7s. I’m now averaging 6 1/2 feet from the 3.7s and they are only getting more coherent. If I lean in some more - say another 6 inches or more - they remain coherent (and in fact sound even more seamless and natural IMO). So it would be a shame if someone who had a smaller room, or who liked closer listening, wrote Thiels off their list thinking they won’t work closer. On a similar note, there is the oft-repeated claim "Thiels NEED tons of power" in terms of amps. Well...yes...and no. Depends on the sound one is interested in getting from their Thiels. No speaker is perfect and different people have their own things they are trying to achieve for the sound they like, which is why synergy (per someone’s own tastes) is so important. If you want to hear the upper limit dynamics a Thiel is capable of, then...like most speakers...a powerful amplifier will do that for you. But, with lower powered tube amps Thiels still retain most of the character that attract people to Thiel - that clarity, honesty, neutrality, specificity of imaging, density, tone, aliveness, etc. With my CJ tube amps, the bass remains phenomenally controlled and tight, as well. As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve even driven the Thiels with an Eico HF-81 14w/side tube amp. Will that allow the Thiels to play as loudly and dynamically as they are capable of? Heck no. But you will rarely hear the Thiels sound as gorgeously rich and lush and HUGE, yet clear, detailed and lively, as with that little amp. In some ways I even prefer it to my much bigger CJ amps. As long as you don’t need earth shaking volume, and in a room like mine, and since I don’t tend to listen really loud, it’s a rewarding amp/speaker pairing. |
Prof, you raise an interesting point about listener's height and seating distance; one that I raised to Jim Thiel many years ago (back when the CS 5's were released). Jim told me that at distances of 8' or greater that the sonic waves were so large that critical distance became realistically less important. He also said (surprisingly enough, to me at least) that studies demonstrated that most listeners regardless of height had their ears measured to within relatively similar distances to the floor (I seem to remember approximately 3"(?) variance and typically 37-39"(?) ear to floor distance, but I'm really not certain of either). In that the vast majority of Jim Thiel's work (and amongst those of perhaps a very, very small number of other speaker designers) appears to have been towards mastering time, it seems quite rational to me, to do as much as possible to allow those efforts to flourish. I seem to recall that Stereophile apologized in almost every Thiel review for not being able to test them at appropriate distances, and at appropriate distances they expected the measurements to demonstrate superior performance. John Dunlavy was so irked (he told me so himself) with Stereophile's measurements that even he invited Stereophile to independently test his time aligned designs at his facilities. With the proper distances, measurements were much improved, with Stereophile offering the blame of small glitches perhaps to reflections from the fork lift that was used to move those large cabinets. That is not to say that without such considerations, one couldn't enjoy Thiels (heck, most people enjoy their speakers regardless of the fact that their speakers are never in time alignment). Thiels will make music even if underpowered, but again they won't be able to provide the strain free dynamics, linear frequency response and bass integration that appropriate power can. One can enjoy Thiels without proper driver integration, or even power, but they won't be enjoying the full potential of those Thiels. |
I know nothing about this particular unit, or of the feedbackless seller, but if one could get an in house audition and pick up directly, this looks like a potential killer bargain, even if by chance it might need some maintenance, for some Thiel owner.: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/amplifiers-threshold-s500-a-ab-amplifier-2017-04-10-vintage-equipm... FWIW, it has more Class A output than Nelson Pass's later similarly powered Pass Labs X250's. Will work with many ss and tube pres (Audio Research is often cited). |
Woohoo - my 3.6's are arriving between 9:00 and 5:00 pm today via UPS freight. As much as has been said about placing loudspeakers in general, I got out a tape measure just to see how mine have been placed since I moved into this house 22 years ago. It's a difficult room with a ceiling that slopes from 9 feet to 17 feet at the apex, radiators all along the exterior walls, one wall three feet from the left speaker, the other wall thirteen feet from the right. The floor is laminate with an area rug tossed in the center. I don't have another option to place the speakers. The left wall also has an air conditioner stuck in it. Not only is the room a pain in the ass to furnish, its a pain in the ass to position the stereo in the best place possible. Trust me, I've tried. Anyway, my speakers will be roughly eight feet apart and about twenty four inches from the rear wall. I can't bring them out any further because it looks stupid, and these things simply beg not to be moved via protests from my spine. I've always had the drivers positioned just in front of the equipment cabinet's depth. It's pretty much all I can do considering the physical space. Much to my surprise and amazingly poor sense of space I listen some fourteen feet away from the speakers. I have yet to find toe-in a necessity since the Thiels throw an impressive sound stage to begin with; a few others I've had, especially Maggies that require a GPS and a periodic table of the elements to position, definitely benefitted from toe-in. I'm like a kid waiting for the ice cream truck... |