Thiel Owners
Good to see you- michaeljbrown funny thing about Audio Concepts in Houston- no one appears to know why it closed? It could not have been a competition thing...? I have visited the Audio Concepts in Dallas- it is a very fine shop. Upon visiting ask for Parker and he will take care of you. Regarding Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs- there are zero shortages of B&M dealers/retailers. Whatever is going on it is in the water! Whom is your connection in Cleveland? I want to say that Don Better Audio is in that vicinity. |
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Hello Guys, I have been too busy to post lately, so was glad to see the many new offerings here by way of Thiel advice and knowledge. By the way, the Houston store was Audio Concepts, like the Dallas store, but no connection. It was a wonderful store, with two floors of audio gear and listening rooms. I heard my first Magnapans there, as well as the big vandersteens. The only place I've been lately with B&M stores is Denver, home of RMAF, which I was fortunate to attend. I have had 5i's, which I got rid of because I couldn't find the right power. Dave is a fount of knowledge on these speakers. I may have tried the DR. 9's. I've had 2.2's, 2.3's, 2.4's (my opinion the best speaker of reasonable size) and 5i's. I now believe I underpowered my previous Thiels.I have recently acquired CS 6's, which were damaged on delivery by Freighters and Craters, which I do not recommend. As I live in remote west Texas, I am finding repair of damage to be especially difficult. Anyway, I am going to power these otherwise beautiful 6's with Krell FPB 250 monoblocks, which I am buying from Daryl in Cleveland, a very knowledgable dealer with a great deal of experience with Thiels. I got the CS6's from him, at a great price. He discouraged me from shipping them, but I did it anyway, After a year with tubes and high efficiency speakers, I am glad to be back in the Thiel fold. More to come, I'm sure! |
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Thanks Dave, This guy nailed it didn't he. To be honest it's something that's been happening in audio since the very early 90s'. Celestion and KEF and Quad are other good examples. Sadly it's a microcosm of life in general, in that there's very little that you can't make a little cheaper and nastier. |
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oblgny, I find your insights most interesting and very similar to my own experiences with the 3.5’s. There are certainly more "plug and play" speakers out there, but when you’ve got them set up correctly, the 3.5’s go places that I don’t hear on vastly more expensive equipment. For over 30 years I struggled to get a speaker presentation balance I was totally happy with. Frequent dalliances with Quad ESL’s of different stripes took me towards the goal, but always, always with the caveat of poor power handling and a lack of low end balls. I tried KEF 107/2s and they either didn’t suit my then listening room, which I doubt, or just weren’t as capable as I expected. Tried a slew of other brands and also enjoyed my Celestion Kingstons, which were probably the second best pair I owned. I even loved my DCM TF600s, which sounded wonderful but perhaps a little colored in the low end. LS3/5As were heavenly in some respects, but again the lack of power handling meant I was tailoring my musical program to fit the speakers, which is really not a good thing in my view. By chance I then I came across an almost mint pair of the Thiels. I’d never heard them dem’d at a show when I attended the London show for about 20 years straight, or at least if I did it never impressed me. It was a total revelation because they really do offer the best of all worlds. My listening room session last night was typical of their chameleon-like versatility. From Boston, to Debussy to Zeppelin to Yello to Joni Mitchell to Stevie Ray Vaughan to Jamiroquai to Laura Nyro to the Elgar Cello Concerto to Roy Harper to the Kings College Choir, and many other variations, they kept up a consistent standard of excellence that you just never hear with other brands. They simply don’t have a weakness and you have to hand it to Jim for such an amazing achievement. The way his memory has been cast away by the present regime is a disgrace. On the theme of the way Jim’s legacy was cast away, view this great YouTube video by a highly perceptive young fellow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkR5lAl22kk |
It's possible to overload that mid range, certainly, and there are many anecdotal cases of this. The 3.5's will go plenty loud enough without the need for that, however, unless your listening room is half the size of Madison Square Garden :-) In terms of the equalizer, this is how they were designed and I see no reason to meddle with that. But as always with audio, one's own experience is unique and, of course, very room dependent. If you think your setup is better without the equalizer, then leave it out, or maybe just select the 40HZ option. I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room, so the Thiels are located without any spousal input :-) I can imagine situations where if the 3.5's are placed near the rear wall that the equalizer will not be performing within spec. |
Unsound, Why do you think the equalizer is so important? In my room the speakers without the eq. or the sub measured a valley at 60Hz and a peak at 40Hz. I needed the high pass filter from the sub to flatten the response curve. What you suggest will put a bigger bump in the low frequency response curve than I started with, add another layer of electronics to the signal path and create more load for my little 100-watt tube amp. The guy offering me the mid driver even suggested that the equalizer could be responsible for blowing the mid range, a suggestion I took with a grain of salt. My midrange appears worn out, not blown. Yeah, I could have moved things around to get a better response at my listening position but it's my living/TV/listening room and I have a partner to live with so there are more considerations than just my obsessive audiophile needs. |
catalysis... Your points were spot-on regarding how the 3.5's sonics improve when the amplification is warmed up a while. I've mated my solid state amp to a tubed pre-amp and I usually, but not always wait about 15 minutes before playing anything. The sonics are noticeably better after about an hour as well. It's funny how my appreciation for the 3.5's, "older models", has made me something of a zealot. I arrived late in the game to Thiel speakers, after Jim passed away, and only through Audiogon discovered them. I also find it most curious about how people find them "too bright" at times, an opinion I previously reserved for a pair of Klipsch CF-3's purchased in 1994 when I moved into my house here. Two ten-inch woofers and a horn loaded tweeter that used to grate on my ears like nails on a chalkboard. Ouch. I cannibalized the drivers and sold them off, then reconfigured the cabinets to hold most of my cd collection. Since then, discovering Audiogon along the way, I've had a LOT of speakers. Among those that I have liked are Magnepan, Totem, Von Schweikert, Meadowlark... The two that keep me curious are Thiel and Magnepan. The one that I've kept is Thiel. The aforementioned brands and a few others that I've had were all good in their own right, but the two that actually stopped me in my tracks have been Maggie and Thiel. Thiel has proven to be the winner in the last comparison, and if I may quote myself from another post, "Thiels are Maggies with bass." unsound's knowledge of the brand is second to none and his posts here have been immensely helpful to me. I will one day move up the food chain but it won't be at the expense of my 3.5's. |
Well I must say, as a 3.5 owner, this is the thread that keeps on giving every week. Some fascinating insights guys. Listening to the 3.5s as I write and I can confirm other recent comments that their reputation for brightness is simply a misunderstanding of what’s happening when you listen through them. They will ruthlessly murder bad recordings, which is what you’re hearing sometimes. Use a first class recording and you’ll get first class sonics. It really is that simple and not a necessity to pair them with amp exotica, though of course more is always more :-) Most crucial tip is to let your amp(s) warm up nicely, otherwise the Thiels will reveal any audible negativity in that process too. In terms of Thiel’s repair tariff, I won’t hesitate to use that service as requirements dictate. Paid $800 for mine, in pretty mint condition, and good luck trying to find better high end audio value than that. Also concur with the point about bass. Full range only rears its head when full range is on the recording. As has also been said, this is bass that’s musical and 100% coherent. I reckon that’s one of the toughest tricks to perform in speaker design. As we all know Jim was a towering genius. Think fine electrostatics with true balls, all delivered seamlessly, and you’ve got the picture. Will continue to follow what everyone says with interest and chip in where I feel is useful. |
Richardp01, I'd suggest getting that 3.5 eq back asap, then setting it to the 40 Hz setting with your sub, if you find the sub that helpful. I'll say it again, the current market value of these speakers seriously belies the performance level. To my ears the only other speakers I've heard that compare/better regularly sell on the used market for roughly 5- 6X what the 3.5's are selling for, and those speakers then again outperform speakers many time their cost! I prefer them to most of the more recent Thiel models as well. Unless you plan on trading up/out (?), I'd suggest incurring the cost of repair if your considering keeping them for some time. |
Rob from Thiel got back to me with a quote of $300. I have a lead on a NOS driver for the 3.5 for $225 which seemed high at first but now seems like a good deal if it is genuine. In anticipation of replacing the Thiels I auditioned some Sinus Faber Olympica II's. They sounded a lot like my Thiels and not enough difference for me to sink $10,000 (new) or $6,800 (used). Into them. I'm not even sure I liked them more than the Thiels. I also listened to a friend's Quad 57's with custom woofers. I have heard these several times over the years and was just refreshing my memory to use them as a reference. To my surprise I actually prefer my 3.5's that I have paired with a Velodyne DD12 sub-woofer that cost more than I paid for the Thiels. The woofer setup got rid of a bump in the room/bass response that really cleaned up the midrange. This may be because I took the bass load off my ARC VT100 amp, or because I got rid of the Thiel equalizer, or because I got rid of the bump. |
Stop me now!!! A pair of CS7's on here for $2190??? Even with shipping cost additional from Florida...? Anyone here have any spare common sense for me??? Woe is me... I really have to stop coming here...my wallet is fast becoming as thin as a leaf. The analogy of putting a $5000 transmission into a 28 year old Volkswagen is accurately made, especially when considering the current market value of the model. From what I see on this interweb thing CS3.5's are selling for under $1,000, well under that in fact - with most suffering from dimpled driver syndrome and/or esthetically challenged cabinetry. Does one spend an amount of money almost equal to the cost of a used pair on a single driver? My high regard for this model warrants that even though it may not be fiscally sensible. Then again, my fiscal sensibilities have not ever applied to stereo equipment. It's a weakness. Gawd, I love stereo equipment! My original pair of 3.5's cost me $800 and I spent the $400 for one midrange to be rebuilt by Thiel. (Thanks, unsound, for your previous direction regarding that.) That included shipping and everything. My expenditure was made with the mindset that they were worth keeping for the long haul even though I gifted them to my nephew not long after that. Sometime later I purchased another pair of 3.5's here from a fellow member, original owner, for a true pittance. Lucky me, indeed. Were a driver require a rebuild by Thiel, I would definitely justify the cost now. Anyway...seeing this listed pair of 3.7's has my fiscally irresponsible sensibilities in a veritable tizzy. Ah, never mind - the seller just replied it's a local pickup only. Anyone in Florida? Scarf 'em up! |
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The day I made my ultimate buying descision on the 2.4SE was the same day I had the unique opportunity to audition the CS 2.4, 2.4SE and CS 3.7, same dealer/retailer, same room and same gear. All we (myself & the owner) did was simply swap out the speakers at will for an A,B,C shoot-out. The CS 2.4SE is actually on-par w/ the CS 3.7 even w/ those newer designed drivers. The "special" edition of the 2.4 loudspeaker is a little sweeter from top to bottom in my listening test. My room will not accommodate the CS 3.7 , as this beast, is too large and demands an even larger space to sound its best. The CS 2.7 is simply a smaller version of the 3.7-no worries there. Fellow 'Goner dgarrettson actually represents the manufacturer of the cross-over components (see his posts/replies here in my thread) is familar w/ these specific components and adds that better options are avail now. |
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Another informative discussion- Dave, Unsound and Richardp01. You guys are in for a treat, as the CS 2.4, 2.4SE and 2.7- are all outstanding loudspeakers. Certainly a step up and more refined over the 20-30 year older speakers via Thiel. I would say that if you guys are into a more "vinatge" approach with your systems, then, seek out an audition on these newer, modern models prior to any purchase. Happy Listening! |
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I haven't received an estimate yet, but if it is $400, I would say it's a reasonable cost for the work, but it's a cost I won't be willing to pay for speakers that won't be worth more than $500 after the repair. If I part them out I would imagine I could get $3-400 for the three undamaged drivers, equalizer, crossover and boxes. |
dcockrum, I agree, and am also grateful that Rob is still available to offer his appreciated service. Still, $400 seems a tad rich for a rebuilt driver that might have cost about that much new. What drives that cost; time, materials? I would have guessed that Thiel could afford to do it for about half that. Thiel didn't just have the best customer service in audio back when Shari, Lana and Gary were there, but the best customer service I've ever had from any company of any kind. I guess they just spoiled me. |
richardp01, Your points are not without merit, but when it comes to the 3.5's the cost to value considerations become a bit convoluted. At their current asking prices the 3.5's might be one of the greatest audio values of all time. It would cost several times the going rate of the 3.5's to find another brand with similar qualities. Unfortunately if one were to simply replace their existing 3.5's with another pair of 3.5's, one might find the replacements have the same issues. So despite the apparent cost to value discrepancies it might very well be a good investment to maintain them. From a performance perspective such an investment is a sound value. As I alluded to earlier despite looking like off the shelf outsourced drivers, the 3.5's drivers were unmarked customized units made to Jim Thiel's specifications. If the replacement drivers come from a one time Thiel dealer you might be in luck. Otherwise, buyer beware. Again, I highly recommend Bill LeGall of Miller sound for consideration as well: http://www.millersound.net/millersound-testimonials.html If may add to the somewhat obvious advice previously offered; may I suggest that when removing screws start at the bottom, and when reinstalling screws start at the top. If you don't have an appropriate table/step stool to place in close proximity to the speakers, another set of capable hands belonging to some one with patience and willingness to work closely (intimately?) will do. I'm not currently in need of any extra parts for my 3.5's (I already have a few), but depending on condition and price I might be interested in grills, tweeters, and/or midrange drivers ;-). |
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Well, I'm waiting to hear from Thiel if they have either a replacement driver or if they can repair the driver. I found someone who has a new Thiel driver for $225 but even this seems a bit much for a speaker that only commands a $500 resale value. It's kind of like putting a $5,000 transmission in a twenty-eight year old Volkswagen. If I don't find something for $100 or so, I will just drive these babies into the ground. For now they still sound fine. I am mystified on how the drivers became damaged. Mr. Unsound: If I parted out my set of Thiels what would you be interested in, at what price? |
A lot of the pre-owned Thiels one sees here and on eBay share the "dimpled driver" syndrome as do many other makes. The pair I purchased a year or so ago from a fellow member and the sole owner did not suffer from the malady - and they're perhaps thirty years old. The advice of getting in contact with Thiel for a rebuild - if necessary - is well given. A previous pair of my 3.5's suffered a midrange tear in the surround that I found necessary to send off to them. I believe the total with shipping back an forth was around $400. That may strike many as a somewhat pricey repair, but it is actually a minor investment in a product that is worthy of it; the quality and sonics of this brand compare very well to competitive brands way up the food chain. Fix 'em if you have to but keep 'em! |
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