I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I'll turn 60 before the end of this year so the prospect of switching out 60-75 pound amplifiers or even heavier speakers on the timetable I have been using has gotta stop!
unsound's suggestion regarding mono-modding the eq's for my 3.5's is a much physically easier upgrade path for me - as are jafant's cabling posts.
My choice of amplifiers IS done. Speakers? I most definitely would consider moving up to CS 3.6's if any become available. I would have bought a pair of CS7's listed here for $1750 but the gent wouldn't ship them. Anyone in Florida reading? The listing ended but...hoping he'll re-list. If yer down there scarf them up!
The eq I bought in haste off of eBay is the wrong one. I'm watching the other one linked here now.
<---is an idiot. Aaaargh.
C'est la vie.
PS: this Khozmo passive pre with the PL X150.5 does have some serious merits. I keep mentioning "articulate" when I espouse Thiel and/or Pass in general, and after having the Khozmo in line all week that aspect of both is affirmed. I switched my cables to anti-cable level ones all around which haven't quite asserted themselves yet.
The Pass sounds noticeably better with at least 30 minutes of warm-in, and I've yet to make the meter wiggle but a hair, so I'm in class A all the time methinks.
Articulate. Linear. Clean. At modest to moderate levels everything is simply there.
It has taken me a long time to get to this spot and I am truly pleased as all hell. Once I find out if the Thiel eq modification will be do-able per unsound's suggestion, I'll consider myself done.
Roger that. I just bought a Thiel eq off of eBay for $108 shipped. Lucky me.
Per your suggestion I will contact Pass and explain the path I'd like to take. I'll also give a shout out to Thiel as well.
Wow, "modded" 3.5's. I'm pinching myself.
But a final word on that. I've mentioned before that I leave the eq in, largely because I figure that Mr. Thiel knew more about his design than I ever will. Secondly, by removing it I found the spatial characteristics became diminished. I did this blindfolded with assistance from my girlfriend on four separate occasions. It stays in.
I have read several times about VTL being a sonic match for Thiel speakers. This company is on my must demo list- can you suggest a VTL or VAC dealer/retailer?
Continued.... available now, or some impedance customizations for your specific gear (unlikely necessary, but heck now is the time to ask), or who knows what? Might mitigate some of the issues some claim to be bothered by with the Thiel eq?
Oblgny, you might want to reach out to both Pass Labs and BAT about your plans to do these we balanced mods. Both are amongst the biggest advocates of balanced operation. I don't have any experience with BAT, but Nelson Pass and the people he has around him have for many, many years have been amongst the most generous in the industry in helping customers with technical concerns. Some time ago there where a couple of companies offering replacement eq'for speciific speaker models such as Those fromB&W, KEF, Thiel etc. Many Since they would be going in for surgery, perhaps there are some now available parts upgrades
The following observations are based on my related equipment, room conditions and personal taste. I am not a reviewer and sure as heck don’t have golden ears.
I purchased my Thiel CS 6’s new around 2000 and used these amps over the years:
B&K M200 Sonata Mono Blocks, they were anemic.
Krell 200 FPB Stereo, lots of bass punch, accurate in the midrange but the high frequencies were bright. I added a tube pre at that point and that tamed the glare slightly. Great amp for Megadeth but only so so for Mozart.
VTL 300 Deluxe Mono Blocks, they warmed up the high frequencies and added depth to the mid range but the bass was now incidental. At first I used SED Winged C 6550 power tubes and later used GL KT-88’s. I used this configuration for a few years before adding a Thiel SS1 subwoofer with the Thiel CS-6 passive crossover.
At this point I was getting tired to the maintenance requirements and tube replacement cost associated with older tube amps and started to look at going with SS amps.
Bryston 7B SST Mono Blocks, These amps (may not be the 7B, it was a long time ago) sounded nice but lacked that WOW factor. The Bryston’s were on loan from a friend who sold them soon after I returned them. He later loaned me his next amps.
Classe CAM 350 Mono Blocks. These amp were the best SS amps I’d used with the 6’s to date. They lessened the slight high frequency glare and the midrange was very close to the VTL amps and the bass was ever so slightly laid back. I returned the loaners to my friend and purchased a pair.
I kept the CAM’s for a year or so, switching between them and the VTL’s. It’s true once you've gone tubes it’s hard to go back, so later I sold the CAM’s.
Also, I tried pro audio amps: Crown and QSC. The best I can say is, not to my taste.
Note: the pre-amps used were as follows, ADCOM GTP-400, Audio Electronic Supply AE-3, ADCOM GFP-750 preamplifier, VTL 2.5 and my current Musical Fidelity A308cr. The nice thing about the ADCOM pre’s was the benign presentation, they add little or no colorization, so you really get a feel for what your up and down stream gear is performing.
These days, I use VTL 450MKII Mono Blocks which are pretty low maintenance for high powered tube amps with my B&W 801 Series 3 speakers. So, the Thiel’s collect dust for long periods of time but when in use, they still have the magic.
I've stumbled across a few ads for the Thiel eq's over the last year or so but didn't bite only because, well, I have one already. (Obviously not thinking that I needed another, and as obviously not thinking to have a back up just in case...) Suffice it to add that I am now on the hunt in order to undertake the s'periment that you outlined below regarding having them modded into monos with XLR connections. Intrigued as hell, I am indeed. This will occur if and when I am able to locate another, a relaxed "to-do" line item for me.
They go for around $100 from what I recall. That's a cheap investment. I do not have any reference point to guesstimate the final cost of doing so, but if I can have the work performed on both for around $500 methinks that's a meager expenditure considering how much I enjoy these 3.5's. My local audio store here in Lake Grove NY referred me to a tech that they use when I bought a used Conrad Johnson MF200 amp a little while back.
Wow! I forgot that I put that in for service before the summer! I have to go get it!
Anyway, a few posts below I mentioned that I purchased a Khozmo passive preamp from a fellow member here just for the absolute hell of it. A couple of years ago I s'perimented with a Reference Line Audio Preeminence One B Series II passive preamp with a different amp and speakers and...I actually forget what I thought of it at the moment.
The Khozmo has two outputs and three inputs with no markings whatsoever. No manual, either. It's actually a well constructed piece of gear. I hooked it up with the Thiel eq in line.
I've decided that the most accurate description of my Thiel CS3.5's is "articulate". What I imagined would happen by slotting the Khozmo in for the moment happened. (Pass Labs X150.5, Khozmo, Thiel CS3.5's.)
There definitely is a more pronounced etching of the highs which the Thiels already excel in providing, and I must confess that I favor speakers that offer such to begin with. The "etching" I described above is not meant to infer that I sense a harshness in those frequencies. Perhaps the most accurate description I can relate of the Khozmo's impact is its absolute lack of adding anything of color whatsoever. As I've said before I find Thiels to be "colorless" unforgivingly revealing loudspeakers, as well the same for the Pass Labs X150.5 amplifier. This was a fun little s'periment. I'll be keeping this little preamp along with the BAT VK3i.
Sometime this coming week I'll rotate the BAT back into place using the tape monitor inputs allowing me to use the balanced connects between it and the Pass. I already tested that option before tossing the Khozmo in and it worked fine.
Like I said, once I locate another Thiel eq I will undertake your suggestion to have the mods performed. Should be VERY cool, indeed.
I forget whom the fellow member here is that prefaces his ads with the phrase, "Get ready for hi-fi fun!", but since joining this community and more specifically this thread, I have indeed been having hi-fi fun.
I have Thiel CS-6's with the SS1 and passive crossover. Over the years I have used them with a lot of great amp. They perform best with high current SS amps. That said, they do very nicely with high powered tube amps too. I hooked them up last Thursday because I was considering listing them for sale. They have been collecting dust for the last few years. After a few hours of listening, I am reconsidering listing them.
"we all hear differently." I couldn't agree more! When moving up the c-j line of pres often times the output impedance moves up too. Making system matching more of a concern, especially with many ss amps, even more so with amps like the Pass Labs with some having rather low input impedances. And, of course no c-j product has balanced connections, which the Pass Labs seem to work best with. While I can certainly appreciate the charms of tubes, I'm not convinced they are the panacea some might suggest they are. But then again, "we all hear differently."
we all hear differently. Sure, most tubed power amps do not double down, for this remedy, a SS power amp and tubed pre-amp will work out nicely.
Until I hear a better model, the ARC Ref5 SE is the best tubed pre-amp in the marketplace currently. Pass Labs is the best SS power amp at this juncture. Happy Listening!
Jafant, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. "...Electric guitar/electric Bass guitar-driven music..." unto itself typically doesn't go below the first octave where power demands are usually the greatest. Any of the Thiel's made after the 3.5's either/and drop below 4 Ohms and have a phase angel that the vast majority of tube amps don't have the current capability to deal well with. Tube amps when faced with such a load not only don't double down, they very often actually lose power potential. Tube amps will need to provide multiple times the equivalent ss Ohm rating. Very high powered tube amps can get saturated and start to have their high frequency capabilities compromised. Furthermore, tube Watts typically cost quite a bit more than ss Watts. Not exactly the best value. While tube amps do tend to distort more gracefully than ss amps, I'd rather avoid the distortion all together by getting more Watts for my dollar with ss amplification. I've head c-j tubes with many Thiels, and while they do seem to have a lovely upper bass to midrange quality (amongst other things), it's a quality that distracts one from realizing the bass can be quite loose. But just as when one see's through an optical illusion, once it's noticed, it's presence can't go unnoticed. c-j ss are lovely amps that have many of the c-j tube amp qualities and after considerable auditioning between both on Thiel's, I actually bought and ran ss tubes with Thiel CS 2's (most durable and easiest load of any Thiel ever made with a 6 Ohm nominal/ 5 Ohm minimum load). A perfectly lovely combination. A word of caution though while certainly adequate with other Thiels, the larger ss c-j amps don't quite produce the doubling down current capabilities of some of the competition.
oblgny, Of course as I alluded to earlier, even better, if you could find another 3.5 eq, it shouldn't be too difficult for a qualified tech to convert your now 2 eq's to balanced mono configuration. Then you would avoid the conversions, extra lengths of interconnects, have greater stereo separation, and avail yourself to extra inputs/outputs of your BAT. Another option would be to find a digital room correction device with equalizer function and balanced inputs and outputs. The additional advantage of which is that you could tune your speakers bass output to the your specific room rather than Thiels anechoic one. Something I've been considering for some time. Unfortunately I have yet to find such a budget friendly device with equalizer functions that expand to the 12 dB range that the Thiel unit goes to.
^i still recommend doubling the 8 Ohm power rating when using a tube amp compared to a ss amp with speakers like your 4 Ohm minimum 3.5's and even more with later models that have impedances that drop even lower. Personally I prefer quality ss with their inherently superior frequency linearity and subsequent timbre accuracy. Others might prefer the the even order harmonic distortions of tube amps over the odd order harmonic distortions of ss amps. Pick your preferred poison :-).
^You can use two short (1/2 meter (?) lengths of RCA) lengths for the eq tape loop. After which you might very well find that less expensive runs of balanced interconnects out perform more expensive single ended interconnects. Heck, a good portion of the expense of the BAT and Pass is due to the extra parts and labor of their balanced design that makes them perform as well as they do.
You've been more than a great source of information regarding my, and other members Thiels here. In fact you were the first to make me aware of the continuing service on their legacy products which helped me rebuild one of my midrange drivers on my first pair of 3.5's. You also explained why 3.5's can be driven with a lighter weight tube amp due to the speakers more consistent load presented to the amp...
Tomorrow morning I'll be s'perimenting with the tape aspect suggested with my BAT in order to gain the full benefit of using XLR connects between that and the Pass, as a result keeping the Thiel eq in the chain. I will also attempt the same with the Khozmo passive, albeit with unbalanced connects.
Oblgny, have you tried using the tape loop on the BAT? You'll get a lot of the noise rejection benefits of the balanced cables that way. Besides, both the BAT and the Pass work best with balanced out/in.
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