I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I went through it wondering "where are the speakers?" I had to dig down into the menus to finally find just a handful left of the (non-Jim) Thiel speakers now called "Legacy Products" (so selling those last ones off), along with hats and T-shirts.
Man it's just too sad what happened. It's hard to imagine what the point of calling a company like that "Thiel." People associated a certain speaker with that name, and they sell nothing like it. so what does the name even get them?
So, there I was a week ago awaiting the arrival of my recertified BAT VK300XSE from Colorado...
I got what I feel was a fair enough trade-in on my Simaudio Neo340iDPX2 toward the BAT, $1800 toward the $3100, so all was good there. I didn't want the hassle of selling it privately nor did I want the swing-time between committing to the BAT and getting the offset from the Neo.
The BAT arrived Saturday of Labor Day weekend - days before it was scheduled. Woohoo. Happy camper.
I unbox it, wire it up, plug it in and...nuttin'. It goes into standby/warmup mode, but nothing further. Blank face. Zippo. Nada. Zilch. I check and double check everything. Same thing. Nuttin'.
I send an email explaining the situation. No response until after the weekend. (Understandable.) Turns out they're not open weekends, anyway.
My contact there contacts BAT and they forward a set of re-boot instructions which are included in the original owner's manuals but NOT in their recertified units. I re-unbox the unit, wire it up, plug it in, follow the procedure and... nuttin'. Big ol' brick once again. I re-do everything again. Check everything. ( Not a helluva lot to do so far as hooking up an integrated amplifier, is there?) Nuttin'.
Sigh.
My contact then sends me another email with a shipping label going to BAT directly for the non-working unit. He then immediately ships another recertified VK300XSE to me.
It arrived today. It works. I was right about my 3.6's liking a little more power. (300 vs 200 watts @ 4ohms). While the Neo was nothing to sneeze at by any means, the BAT simply "presents" better overall, particularly at the conservative level I find myself listening at 90% of the time. The phono stage in the BAT is also more detailed. Good stuff.
I'm still finding that adding the REL T7 to my system improves things. I'll be taking it in and out of service to determine how the BAT itself improves upon the Neo, but I can't say at this moment if it warrants removing the REL altogether. I like the way everything is sounding.
The folks at TMR did everything right addressing my problem with the first unit. I couldn't ask for better - they treated me well.
So long as you are pleased w/ your gear and musical presentation, mission accomplished. I can second Creek gear prior to the Evolution series ( I have not heard those amps). There is a bit of magic in those integrated amps. Surprisingly very good and a steal at their price-points for Thiel models CS 2.4 and down. Happy Listening!
Good to see you- prof hope you continue to enjoy your CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 speakers. Like many of you guys, I had to wait 2 years prior to finding my pair. It is worth the wait!
I hear you. My listening room is a main floor room which I try to maintain as the nicest looking room in the house (first room you see when you step in our door). Aesthetics are a high priority so I always insist when I can on waiting on the right speaker finish. (I had to wait years for a pair of Thiel 2.7s to show up in the finish I wanted).
Hi jafant! Yes this hobby is all about music and friends can only help broaden tastes.
It took me many years of climbing the audio ladder, far too many, before I was realised what I was looking for in music reproduction. Until then, the whole upgrade thing was always strangely unsatisfying despite great magazine reviews.
Nowadays I am still interested in potential improvements to my system, eg loudspeakers such as the Thiel 3.7s as mentioned by prof, but I do love the sound my speakers and amp (modded Tannoy Berkeleys and Creek something) are making.
jon, My system: besides 2 2s, Classe ca-300, Rotel RCD 990 as transport into Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2, Bybee power conditioner, Magnan cables. Listening room: 20' x 20'
prof, Thanks -- I did see that listing. Unfortunately, black is the only color option for these speakers that won't work.
Tell us about your system or add a virtual system into Audiogon. I have never heard the 7.2s, but I have certainly entertained the thought of moving from my 3.6s to them. I would imagine they need a high current amp. I'll be interested in hearing from others.
I currently own the 2 2s. They are fine speakers, but I have a chance to buy a pair of 7.2s. My plan was to upgrade to the 3.7 if/when a suitable pair comes on the market. I'm seeking advice on the relative merits of buying 7.2 now, or waiting. Many thanks for any comments.
Just wanted to say how well my 1.6's are doing as rear channel speakers!I replaced a pair of Magnapan mmgw with the 1.6's and the difference in amazing!I think now I'll use the mmgw's on the garage floor to catch oil drips when I change the oil in my Vette!
marqmike, Having owned both the 2.4's and now the 3.7's,I would save money and buy the 2.4's!While I do like my 3.7's ,I cant say they are many 1000's of dollars better?The 3.7's play larger because they are.I think some 2.4's with some good electronics can be quite a formidable system!I heard some of the best bass from my 2.4's with a McIntosh amp!
Good to see you again- marqmike, I am excited for you as the CS 2.4 is a honey of a speaker at any price. Yes, 125/250 watts is plenty of power to drive those speakers. Your measurements look good as well. Once you take receipt of the speakers, placement/measurement can always be adjusted to taste. To my ears, the CS 2.4 and 3.7 are not that far apart. Some differences are the 3.7 is larger in size and scale, Mr. Thiel's last generation of drivers in the time/phase coherence tradition and can fill a larger listening space with ease. Having heard models- 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and 3.7 at length- one cannot go wrong with any of these offerings. Prices are right as well. Keep us posted as you massage the speakers into your system, home.
Hello Thiel listeners I am excited I should receive a pair of 2.4's in about 1-2wks. There was some 3.7's listed that I thought about, but then felt it might be to much of a speaker for me, and that I couldn't go as wrong with the 2.4's in my basement. I had some 1.2's new when they came out and moved on from them but never replace them in my mind. I am probably going to ask a few questions at times, and from reading this thread since it was started it looks like I will get some fine suggestions, so thank you for this thread Jafant. Would you say off the top of your head my present amp 125 watts into 8ohms and 250 into 4ohms would be capable for a good while power wise? And outside of power for the 2.4's what is one or two things you could say you would want to make sure of. I have 30-36 inches out from the wall I can place them. No side walls to worry about, they are about eight feet away. And my listening position will be about nine feet away. Any suggestions appreciated. Now for fun did I get close to the 3.7's or should I get them if they are still available. Can I do an upgrade to bring it close to the SE model or would I want to? Thank you friends.
Check out the picture of the tobacco sunburst 3.7's a guy has in virtual systems,recently added!Talk about a killer looking speaker!Never saw anyone own one of those yet!Very rare!
My pleasure- vair68robert. good to read that your query was addressed. Hope more information is forthcoming by dgarretson. Fill your Labor Day w/ good music and friends. Happy Listening!
I tried my Goldenear xxl sub out with my 3.7's this weekend just to experiment,the combination was remarkable!My setup is in the basement filled with weight equipment and concrete surfaces.Far from an ideal location,but safer from kids and pets!homemade sound panels have helped a lot!I really feel the sub blends well down there,filling a large area with satisfying bass.Getting good sound in my basement has been a challenge,but I'm slowly winning!Man Cave!
Welcome! kevinaudio- another audiophile on a different forum liked XLO cabling with Thiel speakers. I have heard Nordost Blue Heaven cabling w/ Bryston gear in the past. Very nice combo. Another brand to consider is Audioquest, another sonic match for Bryston and Thiel. Keep me posted on your decision. Happy Listening!
"My own subjective impressions, especially of amplifiers, aren’t much use to other people I think. We all have different tastes, different hearing, different criteria; what I hear as uninvolving will be someone else’s musical nirvana.
And by "bleached" I’m talking of timbral or tonal color, nothing to do with dynamics. I tend to sort of see colors when listening to sound (and clearly so do some other people, which is why lots of audiophiles refer to colors in describing sound). When I listen to my acoustic guitar I always "hear" a golden sparkly tone. I’d take that recording around to various systems and speakers: from most of them, I don’t hear that tone. It’s more silver/gray. And that’s my main complaint with most systems: they sound "bleached" of tonal color, which is what I always perceived whenever I was able to compare Audio Research amps with, say CJ amps, over the years (and that’s only a few times, really).
That doesn’t mean someone else will hear the same thing. Although...it was interesting to see it described that way here, and I have seen the Audio Research sound described similarly over the years. Just like the CJ sound is often described as "golden."
My pal loves his Audio Research amp - had it forever, doesn’t want to part with it."
Wow! This is the single greatest posting I have ever read on any audio website. Its wonderful to know there are other people out there who feel the same way about tonal colour. I have heard cheap car stereos, portable radios, even TVs which sounded better than some (so called) high end audio with its highly detailed, wide bandwidth but timbrally washed out monochrome sound. Totally unsatisfying.
It’s a pity that Thiel didn’t have much of a presence here in the UK, but we still have Tannoy and Harbeth.
First I would like to thank jafant for going out of his way to offer his assistance. .
For all the 2.4SE owners , I learned that the crossovers used are more than just larger and higher quality capacitors, Thiel re-tuned the entire crossover circuit .
For the 3.7 owners something that didn't happen , just before Thiel was sold they were working on a 3.7SE !
And for the project that I thought I could do with my 2.7s , I have discovered that my desire and enthusiasm were way ahead of my knowledge of the speaker cabinet construction , making the proposed project much more difficult and possibly damaging . I will not risk removing the woofer . Not that I'm unhappy with the sound of the speakers. Oh well , I'll work on my Carver SA/D 490T CD player.
I have used BlueJean Cables and I too ordered the 10 guage speaker wire and used their interconnects, sounded great for a great price. Then moved up to Cardas Quad Link and now am using Cardas Neutral Reference with the hope of finding a used pair of Golden Reference some time in the future.
Given you've expressed some reservations about spending too much on speaker cables, if you want to get off that merry-go-round you can always get professional, competently made cables by Beldon which will pass all the same electrons as the super expensive stuff.
I buy from Blue-Jean cables, the Belden 5000 series:
I use the 10-gauge 5T00UP as I have a pretty long speaker cable run. Review with measurements (something you don't usually get for the high-end cables):
$22 for a pair. Think of all the money you'll save to put towards music....:-)
(BTW, if you want to talk expensive cables: I've heard speakers I own hooked up to a variety of high end cables, up to $30,000, and to my very picky ears they sounded no better than they did with the Belden cable).
Greetings I just purchased Bryston 28b SST2's to drive the 7.2's. Can anyone recommend speaker cables that are around $600/pair or less for 8 feet. I have Nordost Red Dawn but I think it is time for an upgrade, I have not gotten the amps yet as they will arrive next week. I also have some old XLO PRO 1200 that they were kind enough to turn into shotgun terminations and I will try them, they have a lot of copper. They are green and black for those that remember them. My on-line research had people recommending 6 THOUSAND DOLLAR CABLES. I have two kids in college _ I wonder if they would mind sitting out a semester so dad can buy some speaker cables. I love the xlo signature 3 interconnects I am using for the turntable and phono stage. I purchased the Bryston balanced interconnect for the amp to preamp (classe ssp-800) to replace my nordost RCA quatrophils.
Hi Everyone, Thiel can keep appointing CEOs, but until one of them finally gets to grips that the company's brand collateral is being decimated by a never ending stream of uninspiring, underwhelming "me too" speakers, the decline will continue.
It's beyond belief to me that the Coherent Source concept doesn't feature any longer. That said, it's going to make our old Thiels much more valuable, but I'd rather that Thiel was a going concern making good money, if only to keep Rob in a job.
Always good to see you- William. TMR does have an impressive inventory on a regular basis. Prices are competitive as well. Other audiophiles in various audio forums I frequent own or have owned the VK300 XSE at one time. Never a bad report given. Same goes for B.A.T. separates. I rarely read about the mixing and matching of B.A.T. gear though. Some brands are designed to match together w/o interference, I guess? Aesthetix is another company that enters my mind. Enjoy those oysters for me.
I saw a couple listed here and wound up somehow on TMR's site on a subsequent search for the VK300XSE. While I would love to have the time sufficient to visit dealers and audition stuff, plain fact of the matter is that I just don't. I buy virtually blind and deaf all the time. Making appointments for a hobby is something time doesn't afford me.
My previous appreciation for the BAT VK3i preamplifier I had when I had my Pass X150.5 amp was the primary reason for my purchase of the integrated; returning to separates at this time is something I simply do not desire. Thiels make us do crazy things since they hide nothing. I'm a good example.
The best news is the BAT is arriving on Saturday - just in time for my annual Labor Day Seafood Fest/family get together on Sunday. Much to do, smoked duck breast, smoked oysters, dumplings fried in the duck fat, raw oysters, various incarnations of shrimp and scallops, veggies up the ying/yang, wine, spirits, brewskis...
Precisely! At the low levels I listen at 90% of the time the 3.6's just don't provide what you described whereas, IMHO, the 3.5's did - thanks in part to the bass equalizer no doubt. This "little" REL has truly made the 3.6's sound better. Not too shabby considering that they're truly remarkably fine speakers to begin with.
The bass now has that sense of "feel", not heard that you remarked upon. Love it. Thanks for putting into words something I could not.
I am perplexed that a small REL T7 subwoofer with a low frequency extension to 30Hz +/- 6db would be enough "to make me keeop the 3.6" which has a low frequency extension to 27Hz +/- 3dB. Where do you crossover? Do you think that by removing those few low Hz from the Thiels cleans up the bass response? Or do you think that your ampification just didn't have the juice to drive those lower Hz? Being a bass guitar player, I love the weight of the bass with my 3.6s and the Audio Research Ref150, but I'm always looking to clean up the timbre/transients of the individual notes. Thanks, Jon
No problemo. My offer stands until you decide if you'll pick them up or not. If you don't I'll just part them out somehow. Have a great Labor Day weekend, all!
Oblgny, please accept my apologies for not responding to your generous offer sooner. I have been traveling quite a bit lately. Perhaps if the offer still stands when I return we could have further discussions. Regardless of what might or might not transpire, thank you!
I agree the Meadowlark speakers can be wonderful. I’d listened to most of their models (when they existed) and ended up with the Blue Heron speakers at my house for a while. IMO, The Meadowlark sound was characterized by a natural organic woody/warm tone, with an airy open sound, and huge soundstaging - a real disappearing act - and decent dynamics. As you went up the Meadowlark line, and as Pat M. started using more expensive tweeters, the sound became more smooth and refined. And the larger speakers like the Heron were notable for a lush, full midrange.
As much as I absolutely loved the warmth of the Meadowlarks, I did find their tone to be more obviously imposed on the sound vs the more neutral Thiels. (I had the CS6s near to when I had the Meadowlarks).
Also, the Meadowlarks exhibited a well known characteristic with time aligned/first order crossover speakers when used in a typical tweeter/mid layout: a weird interference pattern depending on where you sat. Especially if I would rise higher or stand up, the sound would do this slightly odd change, to a suck-out in the upper mids. It reminded me of the aural equivalent of those images that use ’Lenticular Printing’ where the image shifts or changes as you change your viewing angle. Not a big thing given we tend to sit in one spot listening, but it somehow nagged a bit at me. The coaxial design of the Thiels mitigates this (one of the reasons Jim went in that direction) so not only do I not hear that problem with the Thiels, they are actually one of the better speakers in providing a uniform sound off axis.
Anyway, I agree the Meadowlarks are quite a bargain used.
Good to see you- oblgny I am interested in reading about your thoughts/impressions on the B.A.T. VK300XSE. Is your local shop a dealer/retailer for B.A.T. ? If not, where did you find this integrated? Agreed, nothing wrong with extra current on tap.
Leaving Thiel is a frustrating task, albeit one that I've personally managed to do a few times simply out of curiousity if nothing else.
Obviously for sonics I definitely recommend Maggies - they still command an attraction for me that is as hard to fathom/explain as is my appreciation for Thiel. They do so much right that the "shortcomings" many people express about them are negligible. The only aspect to kvetch about is, of course, Maggie's "Easter Island" physicality - they can dominate a space with their imposing dimensions. I've had .7's, and the 1.7's and loved 'em both - both times returning to Thiel, 3.5's referenced here, twice. Thiels are indeed Maggies with mo' bass. And that's a compliment.
I can also recommend Von Shweikert, another brand that I've found to be relatively close to Thiel, but with a lesser degree of the midrange punch that Thiel delivers. I've had VR2 and 4's, with the 4's being a closer match.
Meadowlarks. Like Jim Thiel, Pat McGinty also had a penchant for coherency and time alignment and his speakers absolutely deliver superior sonics. Used, they're just an incredible bargain. I gave my gf a pair of Kestrels a few years ago which we listen to paired with a Pioneer SX850 receiver - the little two-driver imp really impresses to this day.
Obviously all of my Thiel purchases have been from the used market, 2.2, 2.3, three pairs of 3.5, and now, FINALLY the 3.6. The Maggies I've mentioned I purchased new. It's impossible to argue the return-on-investment that used Thiels offer. Can't be beat. Nope. Can't.
I just swapped my Simaudio Neo 340i for a B. A. T. Integrated because I think my 3.6's would appreciate the extra current/wattage that the 340i couldn't deliver. (Neo 200 into 4 ohms, the B. A. T. 300 into 4 ohms.) With the 3.6's I found it necessary to add a small sub - the 3.6's were so "Maggie-like" with regard to bass reproduction that I grew frustrated. The bass from the 3.5's was indelible at all listening levels whereas to my humble ears, the 3.6 seemed to abandon it. This small REL T7 managed to make me keep the 3.6.
jafant When I talked to Rob ( last year ) at Thiel he had informed me that the veneer on the SE cost $1,000 a sheet ! Thank you for sending the e-mail because I have a feeling the Thiel will not want to get involved.
Prof Great finishes , I guess that my memory is getting old, when I was looking at the prices of 3.7s there was a pair of special finish by Gibson guitar ! The only ebony speakers that were on e-bay when I bought mine was 1.7s , I almost bought a pair but because of the bargain price , but then another 3 pairs of 2.7s became available Since I had a pair of black 2 way speakers that were given to me by a a friend and former Thiel 3.5 owner nkonor ( Norb ) about 25 years ago and a few upgrades later , I wanted 3 way speakers that weren't black . As you can see I keep things for a long time I think that the 2.7s will be my last pair , unless I win the lotto. Just finished my Sunday Classical music day. Now for a little jazz to end the evening . Rob
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