Thiel Owners

arvincastro...

I am also a BIG fan of the 3.5's.

As to your comments regarding how these speakers reveal flaws up and down the chain,  particularly with digital formats,  I can only state that the existing issue is not the speakers.

So far as tossing "vintage" separates at them to improve everything,  I have had a Threshold 400A amp mated to a BAT tubed preamp and the results were very good.  (I've tossed a pretty good amount of stuff at my Thiels,  in fact.)  My favorites?  For amplification,  hands down Pass Labs.  (X150.5 model) For pre-amps?  I really believe that Audio Research and Thiel are great matches.  I like having tubes in my preamps for Thiel.  ARC just has this "punchiness" that I like.  LS3 and LS3b (tubed) models can be found on here at VERY fair prices.  And they can still be repaired if an issue ever arises.

I actually sold my Threshold fairly cheap because the meter lights weren't working - or so I thought.  Turns out I wasn't throwing enough power to the speakers.  (3.5's)  As unsound,  another member here and a wealth of things regarding Thiel overall related once,  the 3.5's are one of the easiest models to drive.  For the record,  I always left the bass equalizer in operation.  A few members have offered that they sound better without it,  but I disagree.  The speakers were designed to have it in use,  so who am I to argue with Jim Thiel's design?

Pass Labs,  even pre-owned,  can be expensive.  I've had two X150.5 amps,  paying a little more the second time around than the first,  approximately $2500.  A bargain,  given how well Pass mates with Thiel.  It just DOES for me.  I have since moved back to a BAT integrated with identical power ratings to the Pass Labs,  and it's working out fine.  Pass Labs integrated are difficult to find on the pre-owned market.  The INT150 has been discontinued but appears once in a while on the Renohifi site - a retailer I can highly recommend.  Mark is a gent and a good businessman.

I am currently selling my 3.6's because I miss the 3.5's so much.  I am hoping to find a local pair of 3.5,  or perhaps even a pair Maggie 1.7's.  I have a soft spot in my heart/head for both these brands and what they do so damn well.  

I forget to whom I offered the guts of the last pair of 3.5's I purchased here.  The cabinets were pretty rough and both midranges were inoperable,  so I gutted them and keep the raw drivers,  crossovers,  bass eq,  and grill hardware.  The midranges LOOK fine,  but they're dead - still repairable at around $300 apiece.  The woofers and tweeters are in fine condition, 100% operational.  Sequential serial numbers were on the cabinets as well.

Anyone willing to pick them up is welcome to them free of charge.

Welcome! arvincastro

there are many experts here on the CS 3.5 loudspeaker.
I look forward in reading more about your system and upgrade path from integrated to separates.
Happy New Year!

Hello everyone...Happy Holidays!

I have been enjoying a vintage pair of Thiel CS 3.5's for well over 2 months now and can honestly say that I am absolutely thrilled with them. Their ability to play so cleanly with that incredibly wide and open soundstage never fails to amaze me as I re-discover my music collection. They truly are full-range...the bass is deep, clean, precise and authoritative. The other thing I've found is that as difficult as they are supposed to be to drive, my Denon PMA-2000 IVR (160 watts @ 4 ohms) integrated seems to be getting on quite well with them. I am using the tape loop in my integrated to play through the Bass Module. The Thiels do like to be driven, though...they really open up and "clear their throats" as I turn up the wick. Truly stunning performers!!!

If I were to have one issue, it's that the Thiels expose poorly recorded material in a ruthless, almost non-correctable fashion. For instance, I have many CD's from the early days of the format that now have a harsh, irritatingly "bright" sound to them. What's even worse are digital files. I've been re-ripping my CD collection to loss-less FLAC, but any "lossy" files really are exposed in ways I never noticed as much before. Of course, Hi-Res files, DSD and MQA Master files from Tidal are played beautifully!

My current set-up is decidedly "Mid-Fi", but has everything I need to get very good sound:

- Denon PMA 2000IVR Integrated Amplifier
- Denon DVD-2900 CD/DVD-Audio/SACD Player
- Denon DJ VL12 Prime Direct-Drive Turntable with Shure M97xE (MC) & Denon 103R (MM) cartridges
- Thiel CS-3.5 w/Thiel Bass Module
- Toshiba Satellite laptop w/Meridian Explorer 2 USB DAC (MQA capable)
- Roon and Tidal digital-file playback/streaming applications
- AudioQuest Golden Gate interconnects
- Gotham SPK-8 speaker cables with Eminence E400 banana plugs
- Pangea Audio AC-9 (amplification) & AC-14 (sources) power cables
- Tripp Lite LCR2400 Line Conditioner

My current plan is to move towards separates. While I truly enjoy my integrated, I have an inkling that something like vintage Adcom, Threshold or Krell amplification will open-up the Thiels even more. What I do wonder is if what I really need to tame the harshness I get from some music is tubes...maybe something vintage from Conrad Johnson or Audio Research will work? 

I've posted several photos of my Thiels and little listening area here:  

www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1340

Thanks for any feedback or suggestions!

Arvin

Happy New Year!

IMHO, the 3 series were Thiel's sweet spot, and the 2 series were/are Vandersteen's sweet spot.

the problem here is because Vandersteen is affordable it gets treated with entry-level Band-aid wires and gear and suffers the consequences.

Yeah, the consequence of building to a price is that you can't have everything. The 2Ce and 3A are remarkable at their prices - they do everything competently or better (and one or two things at near SOTA levels). There are no glaring weaknesses, IMO. If I were to rank the SQ parameters of the 2Ce Sig IIs I would give most things an 8 or 9. It is supremely well-balanced, I am unaware of any other speaker that gets so much right at it's price (or, even, 2X its price). Unfailingly musical and a flat-out bargain.

I'm just at the stage where I'm ready for more performance. Specifically, I want more transparency and resolution, especially in the midrange, and better defined bass would be nice, too. I don't doubt the woven midrange is better than the plastic one and I'm confident the Treo CT is a great speaker. I guess I'm trying to cheat the system by getting something more affordable than the Treo CT but still a step up from the 2Ce. Used CS2.4 seems like a good bet to achieve that.

Greetings
the problem here is because Vandersteen is affordable it gets treated with entry-level Band-aid wires and gear and suffers the consequences.
 If you have latest Sig IIs with woven midrange an amp like the Ayre VX5/20 and Audioquest DBS Aspen bi-wire the dynamics are extraordinary, clarity, transparency will be on another level plus you have a smother in room bass response.
 Best JohnnyR

Thanks for the reply, jafant

If you enjoy the Vandy sound

I do except they have a somewhat veiled midrange, IMO, probably because of the plastic driver. The latest versions use a "tri-woven" driver which is said to be better but I haven't heard it for myself. The Treo CT with the carbon tweeter is well-reviewed. I've only heard the regular version. I quite liked it but it is a bit more than I'm willing to spend. I actually have heard the standard CS2.4 but it has been 10+ years ago. I recall very much liking it but went with the 2Ce Sig IIs because it was much more affordable and mimicked the sound of the 3A Sig (except for bass) in a much less imposing package (as you know the 3A is a 48" monolith, the 2Ce is 40"). IMO, Vandersteen's low-end models are easily the best value in high-end speakers. But they do have their weaknesses, as should be expected at these price points.

As I wrote above, I want the fullness of the Vandersteens but with as much transparency and resolution as I can afford.

Stevecham: CS6 could be interesting; i don't doubt you're happy. I rank the CS7.2 just a notch below the very best speakers I've heard (Vandersteen 7, TAD Ref 1, Vivid Giya, and Avalon Ascent) but better than Wilson W/P 7 and 8, Revel Studio and others. Of course, it's always tough to say for sure when the room and electronics are always different, not to mention the intervals between my auditioning.

IMO, Thiel made some of the very best drivers but he failed to tweak the crossovers and wiring as much as he could have. There is a pair of CS2.4 on ebay for a reasonable price but it is missing the speaker cable nuts. I half-tempted to buy that and trick it our with Cardas binding posts, upgrade the crossover (per posts earlier in this thread), and make it bi-wireable.

Beetle: I had Vandersteen 2Ce Sigs v1 and, over time, felt they were not dynamic enough so I traded them for CS2.4s that are a significant improvement in that area. Extended highs were also notable in the 2.4s vs the 2s. But, my CS6s outshine my 2.4s top to bottom and are still may favorite speaker.

@jafant  Have you ever compared your CS2.4SE to Vandersteen 2Ce Sig II, 3A Sig or Treo?

I used to own CS1.6 and loved them except there was no low bass (essentially nothing below 50 cycles in my room) and an occasional distortion in the upper mid-range most plainly revealed on some recordings of female vocalists. I wanted more bass and considered CS2.4 at the time but opted for the 2Ce Sig II which was much more affordable. The 2Ce is clearly a much better speaker than the CS1.6 except it doesn't have that last bit of Thiel transparency and resolution (I found that bi-wiring with high-quality cables helped a LOT but still a hint of veiled midrange).

I have since upgraded my amp and the 2Ce - which I still consider the best speaker available for <$5K - is clearly the weak link in my system. Specifically, I would like the midrange transparency and resolution I heard with the CS1.6 but with the overall fullness I get with the 2Ce. The CS2.4 is back on my radar . . . please share your thoughts on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Thiel and Vanderstreen (assuming you have heard Vandy).

Happy Friday- All.

Good to see you- jon.

Happy Listening!

Welcome! nancygail

Thank You for sharing your experience with Mr. Rob Gillum- he is the best.

Please share more about your system and listening thoughts/impressions.
I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

nancygail....I have 3.6s and I hope I never have to have any repairs. I'm curious, what was wrong with the tweeter and what do you think caused it? Did you remove the tweeter and send just the tweeter?

Want to give a public thank you to Rob Gillium for receiving and  rebuilding my 3.6 tweeter.....in one day!

Excellent and prompt communication.

Thiel owners we're in good hands with Rob helping us out.

Merry Christmas! ALL -

I certainly hope my 2 2s, 3.7s and mcs1 will still have parts and service available for a while.  Once the abomination that is the current version of Thiel croaks I have to think there are enough Thiel owners and fans out there to resurrect some remnant of it.  Maybe Kathy Gornik will buy it back for 3 cents on the dollar.  That'd be fun.  It'd be great if another manufacturer of unique audio products could buy it.  Thiels would make a great alternative to Magnepan.  Both great products offering great value but with different sounds and looks that will appeal to different people.  

I just got some 2.4's knowing the state that Thiel is in. There is not another speaker quite like the Thiels. I checked with Rob and asked if I needed some service 10-15 yrs down the road should I worry and he said no.  Enjoy your Thiels as Jafant says. 

I just bought a pair of barely broken-in 3.7s a few weeks ago from a private party. Considering the news, I was concerned about the longevity of the repair service that Rob Gillum at Thiel runs, so I called him. Things are indeed in a state of flux, but he was able to put my fears to rest. Perhaps some due diligence is still required in monitoring the goings-on, but I'm not terribly concerned now.

Currently listening to the Koopman Bach Cantatas. Such wonderful music.

Just because a company goes under doesn’t mean they can’t be fixed. A friend of mine owns some Snell speakers and kits are still available to still maintain them. In my case I still own 2 Threshold 50 amps and a Forte 6 amp. I have local techs that have maintained them over the years. One great thing about Jim Thiel speakers you can get them for pennies on the dollar now. I’m sure someone will fix these speakers when this pseudo-Thiel company goes under. Merry Christmas!!

Has the talk of the demise of Thiel killed the discussions ?
I have noticed a lot of speakers sale on HiFiShark !
Is this the beginning of the end ?  

Happy Holidays to All and to All a Good Night
Rob

Happy Friday- ALL

My pleasure- catalysis
Happy Listening!

Hi Jafant, thanks it will be interesting to see what Rob says. 

ish_mail,

Classy system you have there.

How ironic: I didn't bid on the Thiel integrator because I thought it was only good for Thiel subwoofers and I have JL. But here I see you are using it to integrate JL subwoofers too!   Live and learn...

Thank you for all that info.  I have indeed already investigated the sounddoctor site and intend to get the CD.

I see what you mean about the Marchand crossover.  Will investigate.

Very nice gear selection- ish_mail
I know your CS 3.7 delivers hours of musical joy. Serious room treatment applications as well. I look forward in reading more about your system, tastes in music.
Happy Listening!

Good to see you- catalysis
after we clear this holiday season, I will contact Rob Gillum and attempt to get some information on this situation, as well as his own at Thiel customer service.

Happy Listening!

Thanks for your welcome, jafant, and for your reply, Prof.

I have some deadlines looming and a family member going through some serious medical issues, so I’ll have to limit my time here. I’ll try to respond to your queries a bit at a time.

My system: AMG Viella turntable with Benz Micro LPS-MR cartridge on an HRS M3X isolation platform; Sonore ultraRendu powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1; Classé CP-800 with on-board phono stage, 192 kHz DAC, and ethernet; Classé CT-2300 stereo amp; Thiel CS3.7s, Thiel SW-1 (retired), 2X JL Audio Fathom f112s, now with solo Thiel PXO5 crossover, but soon to be replaced by Thiel SI-1 Integrator; Stealth cables: hyperphono, Indra v10, Dream; GIK room treatments: early reflection points, corner soffit bass traps, array of 50 Hz tuned bass traps on rear wall with “alpha” blonde wood diffusion grills; Isolation and vibration control: various Stillpoints, BDR shelves and cones; Running Springs Audio Dmitri power conditioner with HZ cord. (Most of my gear was purchased used at steep discounts. Still, it adds up.)

I did run the SW-1 in a horizontal position because my wife didn’t approve vertical. This was challenging, because I had to invent an isolation and vibration control system since I have a suspended wood floor. It worked pretty well, but not perfectly. I’m going to try Auralex Subdude IIs under the JLAs, maybe a simpler and more effective solution? In the end, changes to our living room furniture ruled out the horizontal SW-1 for reasons probably similar to those Prof mentioned.

I worked with (free) acoustic consultants at GIK to develop my acoustic treatments. Most of it is standard treatment of early reflection points and soffit traps in the corners. More notable was severe SBIR cancellation off the rear wall. This was killing bass at the listening position. The tuned bass trap array was the only way to solve this, and as promised by GIK, it works. I made numerous measurements with Room Eq Wizard (REW) to understand my room's acoustics and to inform the GIK consultants.

Room treatments are essential to get the best out of your system (but I understand this isn’t always possible — I’d like to also treat early reflections off our ceiling, but that’s a bridge too far). In particular, low bass will muddy up your high end if you don’t control low-end reverberation times. Adding a sub can make this problem worse. This might be why some people find that adding a sub makes their system sound rolled off on top.

Prof, check out these links related to subs in general and an interesting case study of getting phase and time-coherent integration with JLA subs and a Marchand crossover.

http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm
http://www.soundoctor.com/studio/

Unfortunately, in my case, I'd have to put my subs right next to me on the sofa to replicate this solution in my room (heh).  I don't want to push Marchand too hard, in part because I've never heard or touched one. But based on what I've read, they should be just as compatible with JLA subs as the CR-1. Compare the controls on the XM66 http://www.marchandelec.com/xm66.html to the CR-1, I think they're very similar.

unsound-
your story is very close to my own. My first taste of Thiel occurred at Soundscape in Baltimore. This dealer/retailer featured a pair of CS 2.4 and Vandersteen 2 CE Signature, 3A models. I was able to switch between all (3) for several months. The CS 2.4 won as it had the richest sound/timbre
to my ears.
Happy Listening!

Hi Again Everyone,

Hope you’re all getting ready for some great holiday season listening.

Disconcerting recent news/rumors about Thiel’s possible demise isn’t it, though not exactly the surprise of 2017. Frankly, in the voice of the best Bond villains: "we’ve been expecting you."

My main, and admittedly selfish, fear is what happens if I sent something off for service and the company was suddenly closed down. As I explained in detail here a few months ago, I was able to do a 100% effective repair on a minute tear in one of my midrange drivers, but I’d still like to get both pairs fully refurbed at some point. The issue is that I don’t want to disturb anything while my repair holds up and right now there’s no reason to think it won’t, or that I couldn’t perform the same repair again.

But what happens to our precious bits and pieces that may be in Kentucky at time of close down etc? I’m sure Rob would do what he can, but obviously events can happen fast and unpredictably when a company closes, for whatever reason.

Let’s hope that the ship steadies. I confess that confidence isn’t high. The new MD so far seems oblivious to two channel and solely appears to be on some sort of mission to use lifestyle marketing to sell upscale Bluetooth speakers to millennial types.

Maybe the longer term plan is better than it currently looks? However I do wish another audiophile speaker manufacturer would attempt a buyout, as the current management appears to know as much about real hifi as I do about what is fashionable clothing/style these days i.e. zilch.

Still loving my 3.5s and currently feeding them with tubes. Beautiful sound.

Excellent system- ronkent
many owners of the 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 remark about Sound Anchors.
Hopefully your pair will find a good home.
Happy Listening!

Jafant, I was shopping for speakers for a while, visiting all the brick & mortars in NYC. It originally came down to Maggie III’s or Vandy 2’s. Just when I decided on the Vandy’s and went to put my money down, the dealer pulled out the Thiels. I was really torn at first, but the more I listened the more appealing the Thiel’s became. I really wanted the 3.5’s but they were really beyond my budget at the time. I was starting from scratch and needed everything else too . Happily settled on the CS 2’s. When I moved from my NYC apartment to a house with a larger dedicated room, the used market had expanded dramatically and was able to track down a pair of 3.5’s not too far away. Of course as is the want of audiophiles, I soon replaced everything else except interconnects.

Jafant, I was shopping for speakers for a while, visiting all the brick & mortars in NYC. It originally came down to Maggie III’s or Vandy 2’s. Just when I decided on the Vandy’s and went to put my money down, the dealer pulled out the Thiels. I was really torn at first, but the more I listened the more appealing the Thiel’s became. I really wanted the 3.5’s but they were really beyond my budget at the time. I was starting from scratch and needed everything else too . Happily settled on the CS 2’s. When I moved from my NYC apartment to a house with a larger dedicated room, the used market had expanded dramatically and was able to track down a pair of 3.5’s not too far away. Of course as is the want of audiophiles, I soon replaced everything else except interconnects.

PS:  as i mentioned in an earlier post, i have a set of Sound Anchors that i used with the 2.2 series and think they would work on the 2 series as well.  would be happy to send pics and measurements if requested.   I would be happy to sell them as i have no need for them now.  kent@thehubltd.com

hi Jafant,  thanks for your kind remarks.  I started with the 2 series in 1985 after selling a pair of Infinity 2.5 speakers.  they  were like a mini mini version of the IRS. In 1992 got the 2.2's.  kept them for about 15 years and got the 2.4's in 2007. boy were they a big improvement. then i got the 2.7's in 2014 and they have been remarkable in how they keep getting better as the other gear improves.  I am a total PS Audio Fanboy and have their BHK preamp,  BHK 250 amp,  P10 power conditioner,  the fantastic DMP player,  and the most amazing of all,  the DSD DAC.   They have, through software downloads,  updated the unit like five times, all for free.  The most amazing thing and the reason i write this,  is how easy it is to hear the changes because the Thiel speakers are so dang revealing.  They are going to be hard to improve on unless we move into the Magico or Wilson price points. 

The remainder of my system is a REL S/5 SHO sub. Plus i use all PS AC12 power cords,  a beautiful and highly recommended Samson rack from Mapleshade,  and many of their feet and other stuff.

I sure hope that Rob can continue to run the repair division because there sure are a lot of us devotees out there.  Congrats to him for 30 years at Thiel.  He has been there as long as i have owned them. I do have really good memories of interacting with Gary Dayton over the years.  Their customer service was on par with PS Audio and that is saying something.

Excellent points- robinbarbour
upon listening to the CS 2.4 and CS 2.4SE models, I did not hear any Bass roll off. In fact, the Bass presentation to my ears was full, articulate
and pleasing. This occurred wether or not I was listening at low levels or much louder levels. Made me a believer and owner.
Happy Listening!

Very nice! unsound

I enjoy reading your posts. How did you first come across Thiel loudspeakers? Which models have you owned?
Happy Listening!

Very nice! unsound.
I enjoy reading your posts across these forums.  I venture to say that spending 30 years w/ this brand does indeed make you an expert.

How did you first discover Thiel loudspeakers 30 years ago?
Which models have you owned historically?

Happy Listening!