Thiel Owners

I spoke with Rob at coherent source and he is sending me the upgrade components for my original 2.4's to make them 2.4SE's. Also I am going to send in my grill covers to have him put on some fresh ones. After 12 years of sitting in the house they do show a little age. I purchased the speakers brand new and have always loved them. He told me that they will sound even better with the changes I will make. I also just picked up my old amp that I loved as well, the Ayre V-5XE. This one is a rare one as it is black and at the time Ayre charged an extra $250 for the black chassis. Right now I just have a Marantz AV-7701 Pre-Pro that I use with my HT set-up, but it does have balanced pre-outs. I will eventually buy the Ayre K-5x, there is one on Ebay right now for $1,600 and I am very tempted. I would send it into Ayre and for $1,200 they would upgrade it to the K-5xeMP. As for my source I just bought an Oppo UDP-205 player. 

I’ve yet to hear a horn I didn’t hate.

@tomthiel -

Wow...what an incredible story! This is what a lot of us audiophiles/geeks love to hear...the why & how that goes behind the scenes. Now I know why there is some shared “architecture” between the CS6 & the 3.7. However, the idea of a modern CS4 with a powered sub AND a folded horn...Who wouldn’t want to hear that?!?!?Thanks for sharing, Tom!

As a side note, my family origins lie in the Philippines. Back in the 80’s & early 90’s, Thiel speakers were held in such high regard there & throughout SE Asia that they became status symbols to many in the hobby. In fact, throughout Asia, while it was fine to have Japanese electronics, you weren’t truly high-end unless you had American speakers. For many, that meant JBL, Klipsch & Thiel.

Thanks & please keep the stories coming, Tom...truly fascinating reading!

Arvin

Arvin - about the missing CS4. By the late 80s, we had gotten well established in Japan, which is (or at least was) extremely difficult as well as being a world market-maker. They wanted a state of the art speaker from Thiel, and orientals don't have "NO" in their vocabulary. Seriously. Those days were filled with newly-minted companies like Hales, Wilson, etc. offering $20K+ speakers. The late 80s were the good old days. Jim, however, was an incremental knowledge-based designer and had an aversion to jumping leagues, even though it would have injected significant and much needed cash. So, he designed his next greatest speaker beyond the 3.5. Of course the model naturally begged for the CS4 title. Well, it turns out that the entire orient considers 4 to be the number of death. Of course, our sophisticated distributor and dealers were above such superstitions, but cautioned that we must be concerned about all those other guys who may not want the sign of death in their homes.

The work-around was that the 3-series was a 3-way. The new speaker was a 5-way and therefore could leap-frog the pesky 4 problem and become the CS5, which it did. Now, the next product under development was the Thiel developed and manufactured coax product. I thought it should be a 4-way: coax to 6.5" to 10 or 12" plus passive, etc. However the 4 slot had been leapfrogged and the orient hadn't abandoned their 4 problem, so the 3-way coax x 12" became the CS6. Hmmm . . . lesser than the CS5. You guys will notice that CS6 driver complement is similar to where the 3.7 landed. Luckily for me, I had left the company during the development of what became the CS6, so I didn't have to lose sleep over these pesky matters.

In my opinion, had Thiel's new 20112 owners chosen to stay on the Real Thiel Way, a CS4 could have been a stellar performer and bridge the way to a CS5.2 as described earlier with SS bass. The CS6's primary limit is the 12" handing off to the 4" coax. Put a 6.5" in between and some serious seamlessness wow could happen. Of course you guys know this configuration as the CS7 series . . . It all got kinda confused by that skipped 4. In my imaginary life, I would have persuaded the new Thiel owners to develop the CS4 as a 4-way plus perhaps an exotic bass system between the passive radiator of the 2.7 and 3.7 and the powered inboard subwoofers of the CS5.2 (remember that from a previous post?). That imaginary CS4 bass got some passing fantasy time, but never made it to development. Imagine a true folded horn nestled between the floor joists, fed by a fitted opening on the cabinet bottom through the floor, and exiting via a floor grille in front of the cabinet . . . Yes, it requires build-in. Real life gets in the way.

Next time we'll walk down memory lane where no one has ever snooped and find the mighty Thiel folded horn heard a mile away.

I blew a mid on my 3.7s listening to Beethoven.  It's just so crankable.  I was underpowered at the time.  I added a second amp and run bridged mono now with around 7-800w/channel into 4 ohms and haven't had a problem since.  That was about 6 years ago.

Well, I don't think I listen THAT loud -- we were listening to the 2nd Beethoven piano concerto this weekend, it's got very quiet passages with just a few instruments, and then full orchestra passages. Our room's 20 x 21, speakers are 5 feet away from the wall. My Alpha DAC digital volume was 38, fed directly into the amp. So, not earsplitting! But the small ensemble music is very nice, great imaging, timbres, etc., and as I wrote, the climaxes seem a little "scrunched."  I've had the 3.7s for three months. before that the 2.2s. Nice speakers, also.

We used a variety of amps in the lab and listening room. Threshold, Mark Levinson, Krell and Classé were always there. Unsound may be right about the TH12e, I don't remember. The Classe´amps were a pair of DR9s strapped to mono, which I still have, have hot-rodded and use every day. Their stereo rating is 8/4/2=100/200/400 and mono is 400/800/1100. An amazing thing to me is driving a pair of PowerPoint 1.2s, sealed box home theatre monitors rated at 89 db/w-m with 75 Hz cutoff into an easy room at "normal" playback levels . . . have you guessed? Their performance jumped a big notch going from stereo to mono with these amps. MUSIC IS TRANSIENT and impact requires power. These PPs are my mix and room monitors with stereo SmartSubs. (I'm still looking for a beat-up SS-2 or SW1). When people suggest your Thiels are sounding conjested on complex / demanding music, look to your amplifier.

An endemic design problem is second-guessing. If an amp designer assumes that low-impedance loads will be narrow-band / reactive, lasting instantaneous / short durations, then he can sign off on the particulars of his power supply. However, Thiel (and some other) speakers assume that a properly designed amp can deliver its rated output into resistive (easy) loads for longer term cycles (hard). The amp with enough power supply will love that load. The wimpy supply will starve the rails, clip the peaks, generally sound hashy and burn out drivers. I personally examined hundreds of burned-out Thiel drivers over my years (1975-1995) and every single one failed due to heat which means they were fed dirty signal. Conversely, over all the years of our listening and testing at well over 100dB (large) room levels, we NEVER burned out or otherwise failed a single driver. The specialty retailer and review magazines are supposed to do the educating, but that education is quite thin, in my opinion.

Jon, fiberglas is the cost effective standard. I tested and love genuine wool. Its naturally spiraled fiber works magic in converting pressure-motion to heat. We used 2 grades of SAE military pure wool felt on the back cabinet wall of the midrange enclosures to absorb the back-wave. Wool's performance can't be equalled by modern materials, which I call wishful engineering products. Wool fiber has a couple of problems in the cabinet. It acts very differently than fiberglas, so don't just replace the FG with Wool. And wool is inconsistent, so every cabinet would have to be trial-and-error optimized, which doesn't work well in a production environment. It is also hydroscopic (absorbs water in humid environments) and it's expensive. I will consider it if/ when we get to ultra-upgrade prospects, but wool must be re-engineered, not merely substituted.

Rob,

I’m glad you enjoyed my ramblings on the Thiels. At one point I rambled in an online hi fi mag reviewing speakers (many years ago) so I’ve had a lot in my listening room. I drifted away somewhat from the hobby for a while (turning to designing my home theater room among other things). Still, both back then and now I have enough contact within the community to hear amazing gear.

I keep experimenting, modifying the positions of the 2.7s and find I can get them sounding almost however I want - smooth and lush, brighter more dynamic or a mix in between.

Right now I’ve dialed them to where they sound just super clear with incredible transient response, yet with a warm inviting timbre. Playing something like P. Glass’s Powaqquatsi with it’s ever changing layers of percussion sounds so exciting and life-like, the exact character of every different drum, block or triangle so vivid.

Like I said, I’ll miss the 3.7s scale, but the 2.7s portray more rhythmic drive and conjure sonic images with more solidity than anything else I’ve yet heard. So they are to my ears very much a “performance-first” speaker where the lively sense of musicians performing is the overall effect vs other speakers where soundstaging/spaciousness may leave the overriding impression.

ronkent,

Thanks for the REL recommendation. I used to be more familiar with that line years ago and they were my first thought.
However I’m in a situation where some room features rule out anything but very small subwoofers and the size/performance ratio of the JL Subwoofers I chose are tough to beat.

As I think I may have detailed earlier in the thread, the JL subs, though generally made to use the rca line ins also offer a high level speaker input - ala REL - and as that was easiest I started taking the feed off my 2.7
speaker posts.

Though I got some of the subwoofer benefits - larger, deeper sound - I also lost dynamics and the tone of the system went too dark/soft/rolled off.

i don’t know why (and I’m mostly a newbie with subwoofers as I’ve usually hated subs).

I tried using the rca inputs as well (sent from my preamp) and while it was a bit more dynamic the tone of the system changed too dark. In both cases this was running the 2.7s full range with a low crossover point.

JL Audio’s position, and that of most of the subwoofer aficionados I’ve read, is to go with the crossover and split the sub/mains, usually around 80hz. So that’s my next move. (I bought JL Audios high end analogue crossover).

A good amp for current hungry Thiels doubles power from 8 to 4 ohms and again doubles or nearly so into 2 ohms.

Neither Ayre or Pass give a 2 Ohm rating for the amps F1 is considering. I’m not convinced, however, that matters for a CS2.4. Unless you like to listen at *really* high SPLs and/or have a large room, either amp sound be more than enough to deliver musical bliss. Interesting observation, though, that something in the, um, Ayre might have caused the blown coax. I wonder what that might be.

The CS5, though, looks to be a supremely current hungry speaker. Stereophile’s measurement shows the impedance dropping <2 Ohm in the bass! Might not want to drive those with a SET :)

The observation of congestion of orchestral climaxes at high SPLs suggests, to me, the onset of clipping. Probably need a more powerful amp if that’s how you like to listen.

Tomthiel, Interesting that you used Krell's  (though I can understand why)  for developing the CS5's, it's been long rumored it was the 250 Class A Watt mono Threshold 12e's.

Larry, It's been  a long time, and I might be mistaken, but I thought the late "Bud" Fried also thought 1st order cross-overs were "all wrong". I seem to recall that some of his designs were supposed to be based on transmission line cabinets, yet none appeared to be suitably ginormous enough to be actual transmission lines. Also, wasn't there some sort of brouhaha with Stereophile over the measured bass output of his speakers vs. Thiel's, wherein Stereophile reexamined their procedure; to find that they were in fact correct.

@tomthiel - Hi, Tom! In another Thiel related thread, you offered to share your take on why there wasn’t a CS4-series speaker. Wondering if you wouldn’t mind sharing that story here?

Thanks again for enriching these discussions!

Arvin

My 3.7s have pink fiberglass insulation in the mid/tweeter compartment.  Maybe switching to wool could be a part of an upgrade?

That series of Classe amps definitely doesn't double into 2 ohms.  I have a pair of the 200s and they were 200/400/500 watts into 8/4/2 ohms.  It's hard for me to imagine 600 watts/side isn't enough.  Much more than that and your amp will be in danger of blowing a fuse.  If you're listening to a full orchestra loud on the 3.7s you may be running up against the limitations of the speakers.  They do fine at a pretty high volume but first order crossovers definitely have volume limitations.

tmsrdg, power isn't the most illuminating word, current into low impedance is a subset of power and the operative limitation. You can find out the 2-ohm spec on your amp, which should describe its capability. But, as Larry adds another consideration, current delivery spec can be construed over various time windows, so the spec can lie with demanding program material. Larry is right that Jim was a bit gobsmacked by the subjective experience of CS5 (and all our big products) users running out of bass power. The CS5 came after the CS3.5 with equalized bass, which also drew bass current, but at higher impedance than the CS5. We used a 250W Krell powerhouse which performs as rated, 1000WPC into 2 ohms. Jim assumed the role of the speakers was to perform to its stated specs, and the amp must do likewise and so forth. When manufacturers fudge such claims, the burden-in-fact falls to the speaker for under-performing. All these years later, these matters are still foggy in the mind of the audiophile world. Awhile ago I mentioned that I wish Thiel products had higher impedance minimums - 4ohms minimum as beetlemania (?) corrected my 6 ohm nominal wish. Same animal. We would all be better served via honest claims for our products. 

IMF were best speakers I ever heard for Symphonic Music !

Forgot this. The CS5 dropped to about 2.2ohms if I recall. The design philosophy for bass in the 3.7's was very similar.
Larry

tmsrdg,
This is an old memory so forgive any misstatements. 
I remember talking to Jim and Tom about their design work on the CS5 Loudspeakers. One issue, and a large one, how to pull the amount of current from the amplifier to adequately make the bass come alive. 
The speaker had a stated bottom of about 22Hz as I recall. Jim said that they decided that if the impedance dropped enough, that that would pull the amount of current needed to adequately fund the bass. (just as the 3.7 drops in impedance in the lower bass) After the speakers were finished, he and I had dinner and Jim expressed his disappointment in the published specs of the big boy amps versus the reality of their capabilities in producing power into diminishing resistance. It seems that they were not nearly as powerful as claimed.
Back then, Gryphon, now a powerhouse amplifier, was woefully inadequate in playing program material on my CS5's at even moderate levels, with music having deep bass.
As Jim said, 'Every solve creates another challenge', or words to that effect.
So, tmsrdg, I'd check a review or two on your amp, I'm thinking you're right about the congestion issue. Possibly they don't rate their amp into 2 ohms is because it doesn't do well. Many don't.
Best,
Larry

TomThiel wrote:
>A good amp for current hungry Thiels doubles power from 8 to 4 ohms >and again doubles or nearly so into 2 ohms.
I've been wondering about this. I run a Classe ca-300 amp with my 3.7s. The soundstage  does get a bit congested at large orchestral climaxes, for instance. The Classe is rated 300wpc into 8 ohms and 600 into 4ohms, but there is no specification regarding doubling into 2 ohms in the literature. The 3.7 has a minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms with sensitivity 90dB/2.83V/m. Do I need a more powerful amp?

Tom, 
Years ago, I owned the IMF Loudspeakers by Irving M. 'Bud' Fried.
When I opened my store in Louisville, in '83, he called me to discuss carrying his products. (By then it was 'Fried Loudspeakers'. One point he was adamant about ADAMENT!, was his stand on real wool stuffing in the cabinets of all his models. 'None of that cheap synthetic sh*t'! So, when I designed the LSA's one thing I did was A/B the speakers with the standard cheap, stuff, lol. It was truly an aha moment. NOT a placebo effect. I repeated this for several audiophiles, not explaining. They unanimously and overwhelmingly picked the tightly packed wool models. I can't remember what was used in all the THIEL speakers. (I'm old). I recommend this for any box speaker. 
Have you experimented with this?
Larry

Welcome F1. I am speaking from personal experience and generalizations and do not formally represent Thiel Audio. The Ayre and Pass Labs are both extraordinary amplifiers from excellent designers. Each has its sonic signature, but either is considered top drawer.
It is worth noting that you blew 2 drivers with the Ayre. I suspect something is wrong with it or something else in your chain. Those coaxes are very rugged and the only failures I know are from distortion. If it were mine I would seek troubleshooting and repair. Also the power advantage of the Pass is significant. More power always runs cleaner. Definitely consider it. Look at the watts / ohms ratings. A good amp for current hungry Thiels doubles power from 8 to 4 ohms and again doubles or nearly so into 2 ohms. That pattern bespeaks a power supply capable of delivering current, which you need if you listen loudly to lots of bass or persistent dynamics and/or in a large room. Good luck.

The 2.4 and 2.4SE drivers are the same. The crossover has upgraded components plus the cabinet finish and the outrigged plinth make up the SE. Some of us on this thread are developing a Super SE with considerably higher performance parts which will become available through Coherent Source Service when the time comes. 

Enjoy, Tom

Welcome! f1wheels

there are a few Ayre and Pass Labs users here. Best advice, go to the 1st post and read forward to the present. There is a plethora of information in this thread. Excellent advice and tips abound. Have fun David.

Happy Listening!

Hello,
After asking questions about amp choices I was encouraged to join in on the Thiel Owners Forum. I currently own the original Theil 2.4's I purchased them brand new, I believe just about 12 years ago , I think? I know that the 10 year warantee is expired but in all the time I owned them Thiel was always very good to me. For some reason, and we could never figure it out, I lost the coherent driver on the same right side speaker, twice! Thiel replaced the driver on both occasions with no hassle. What I am wondering is since the 2.4's and the 2.4 SB's use the same dimension of drivers is there anyway I can upgrade my standard 2.4's to the 2.4 SB's?
Also I am currently trying to decide between the Ayre V-5xe, that was the amp I used to drive them with before, or should I go with the Pass Labs X250? The V-5 is $2,750 and the Pass Labs is $2,600. Both amps are in great condition the Ayre is in Black (which was a $250 up-charge) and it is the original owner. But the Pass Labs beats out the Ayre by 100 W/Ch @500 W/Ch @ 4 Ohms. Anyone have some good advice for me?
Thank You,
David

Good to see you- marqmike

When I was auditioning Thiel speakers, the only cabling brand that I heard was, Audioquest. I do not believe that I have ever read about a brand that did not jive well w/ Thiel? I will add that due to these speakers' high resolution capability, cabling with Silver, could present an issue.

Happy Listening!

Since I have had my 2.4's I have been playing with cables. I have a dozen different ones I have gathered over the years. Nothing high priced. But I thought I would mention that my system seemed to click in to another level when I put in the van den hul 'the first' ic's.  They seem to open up the sound stage for me and keep things natural sounding which is my highest priority. Have any of you moved on from these to anything else that contributes to a 'more' natural sound? Thanks

Excellent suggestion - ronkent
a REL subwoofer makes a nice addition to any system. Good to learn that it can compliment the CS 2.7 loudspeaker.

Happy Listening!

Good to see you -vair68Robert
Happy Listening!

I believe that some ( especially me ) 2.7 owners hope the Rob Gillum comes up with a crossover board upgrade

Make your opinions known here. Tom Thiel intends to help Rob Gillum engineer XO upgrades for multiple Thiel models . . . and he is monitoring this thread. He is working on his Power Points now, CS2.4 is probably next (actually, CS2.4 owners can get the SE version caps from Rob Gillum right now). CS3.5 is on his radar. I think the 2.3 would be easy given the similarity with the 2.4, 2.7 might not be too much more work. I suspect written requests in this thread will influence the order of model he works on.

This is an exciting development. I think these upgrades will bring Thiel SQ to a new level.

Prof:  may i suggest that since you going with the 2.7's, which I have and are crazy about,  that you get a REL sub.  i use the SHO S5 and it really takes the speakers to a new level.  

Congratulations Prof

Ever since I read your first post about your impressions of both the 
2.7s and 3.7s I was impressed by your detailed insight,
I felt like I was reading The Absolute Sound magazine.
Which after reading I knew I wanted a Thiel design speaker ,
but also knew it would be years before a used 3.7 would enter my price range , then TAS came out with the 2.7 article which convinced me that the 2.7 was not settling for less other than 2 hz of bass and 60Lbs of weight.
I know you switched back and forth many times before you made your finial decision ( which hurts my back thinking about it ) , so now you can just sit back and enjoy .
And by selling your 3.7s make an upgrade  Thiel owner happy or maybe even make a new convert to Thiel speakers .

I just listened to a new ( used ) Japanese copy of Traffic's Mr. Fantasy and the 2.7s really show their stuff .
I believe that some ( especially me )  2.7 owners hope the Rob Gillum comes up with a crossover board upgrade , since he was involved in the design and building of the 2.7s

Rob

Guys-

I found a nice piece on the soon-to-be-famous Mr. Rob Gillum.
Check it out over on the site  audioFi.net

Happy Listening!

Thanks! for sharing - jon_5912
Happy Listening!

short piece about the end at Thiel

https://hometheaterreview.com/the-last-days-of-thiel-audio/

I believe I’ve finally made my decision after torturing myself between the Thiel 2.7s and the 3.7s for many months now.

I’m going to sell my Thiel 3.7s!

The 2.7s are good enough to keep blowing me away when I listen to them. I’ve had them up for a long time now, long enough to "wean" me off the 3.7s. If I put the 3.7s back in my system to check again I’ll just hear what they can do better, so why bother?

I have the 2.7 position tweaked to where they are ridiculously vivid, alive and dynamic. It’s just freaky how they conjure palpably "there" musicians into my listening room,  track after track. And with the introduction of my first truly high end turntable - a Transrotor Fat Bob, Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge and JE Audio phono stage, the system sounds more spacious than ever.

The 3.7s will probably be the best all around speaker I’ve had, but I have to be realistic; while they work perfectly in terms of sonic performance for my room - still the most even sounding speaker I’ve heard - they are too big ergonomically and block too much of the entrance to the room. And I’m not going to shuffle them in and out for listening as I originally imagined I might. Even if I kept both the 3.7s and the 2.7s I don’t feel like hauling speakers around - at least not ones as big as the 3.7s. The 2.7s can stay right where they are and they look great, without impeding the entrance-way like the 3.7s.

If, like most sane people, I could just have set up the 3.7s and left them there I’d have looked no further for another speaker.  I'll sometimes miss the scale of the 3.7s for sure.  But...the 2.7s are pretty great too!

Happy Friday - ALL.

@arvincastro  Nice system! I imagine you're very happy with your sound. I would own ARC if Ayre was not a thing. Enjoy!

Hello all!

Today, I received the latest addition to my system, an Audio Research PH-3 phono pre-amp. The reason I’m bringing this up is that, ever since I got my Thiel 3.5’s this past November, my system has evolved a lot, all in an effort to extract as much performance & pleasure as I can from my Thiels. Since November, I have acquired:

-  ARC LS-7 tubed line-stage
-  ARC D240 MkII solid-state amp
-  ARC PH-3 tubed phono pre-amp
-  Wilson Benesch Full Circle turntable (awaiting delivery)
-  MIT AVT-3 speaker cables (picking-up tomorrow)
-  Bluesound Vault 2 streamer/NAS/player (being installed next week)

My interconnects remain AudioQuest Golden Gates & Cobras. And, still held onto my Denon 2900 SACD/DVD player. 

Point being...these Thiels have driven me to devious behaviors! I think I will be pretty happy for a while now, but I’m still looking for another D240 MkII so I can run them bridged as mono blocks. All to feed those Thiels all that much better...

Here’s hoping I don’t end up needing an intervention! 

Enjoy the music everyone...

Arvin

@tomthiel PMs sent, please check spam folder?

The modification project is indeed making progress, but there's nothing to report until there's something to report.

Always good to see you here -tomthiel
hope your modification(s)  project is progressing well.
Happy Listening!

Good to see you again- michaeljbrown

hope you find your way back to Thiel loudspeakers. We are always here for you.
Happy Listening!

I have heard that there were reliability issues with the subwoofer amps and that Thiel was making in-house repairs at one time. However, I don't know the present state of subwoofer support. I suggest your friend contact Rob for advice. rob@coherentsourceservice.com

I recently sold a Thiel SS1 sub to a friend. He tells me the sub is continuously blowing its  own fuses.  He's replaced the power cord, changed the source cable, changed out the surge protector, even tried it on another wall with a different outlet. Short of sending it out to Rob Gillum(so glad we now have that option!) any ideas?

Guys-
I spotted a pair of CS 3.5 speakers in the Atlanta area on Craigslist.
Happy Listening!

Welcome! usaltus
good to see you here. I look forward in reading more about you and your system. Please feel free to tell us more about your Audio journey.
Happy Listening!

To all Thiel Owners. I have been enjoying my CS-5s for over 1 year now with Rob Gillum’s assistance.

Last week I purchased a pair of CS-3.7s that needed drivers to be whole again. So I emailed Rob this morning Monday, February 26, 2018 10:04 AM and received this reply at 11:17 AM. I received my UPS tracking information via Email at 1:27 PM. I will receive my parts in 3 days. I quote Rob’s response here:

 

“Thank you for purchasing the CS3.7’s. I am sure you will find them sonically beautiful. The owners Info, and outrigger cap needed will be sent free of charge with the rest of your order. I will go ahead and place the order for two CS3.7 coaxes and one passive radiator. Please visit my website to make payment at www.coherentsourceservice.com. Once PayPal receives the funds they will send me an email, and I will expedite the shipment via UPS ground as requested. Thank you for the ownership of our products.”

 

Best regards,

 

Rob Gillum

 

Coherent Source Service

763 Newtown Pike Ste. 130

Lexington, KY 40511

 

859-554-9790

rob@coherentsourceservice.com

I have heard and read to the contrary and felt lead to share my and Our collective good fortune with Rob Gillum.

Jafant,
Hope your well and your system also!
Im using 1.6 as rear sounds.My theater has never sounded better since adding them.The cabinets fit and finish are top notch!Classic Thiel design!I plan to hold on to them.