I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
As I own both the 3.7s and the 2.7s, I agree. The 2.7s do sound slightly different, the 3.7s sounding more open and a bit more resolving of the finest details and "air" around voices and instruments.
The 2.7s are pretty darned good, though. In a way I find the tonality of the 2.7s a little bit more beautiful and rich. But as I say, it does seem at the cost of the last bit of openness :-)
No manufacturer can be all things to all people but there could be more DIY options given that these will be "kits". If Mr. Thiel does go outboard it would probably not be too onerous for a DIYer to modify these with binding posts and simply run a speaker cable from the XO on your rack to the speaker.
For myself, I prefer a solution of a high-quality strap from the external to the speaker cabinet (XO cabinet on the floor directly behind the speaker) and then cabling to the amp as normal.
Tomthiel, thank you for your prompt response. I can’t help but wonder if more traditional less high, 17” ( or 1/2 size X 2) with available rack mount wings, component style cases that could fit on a typical rack might appeal to more individuals who might prefer not to have boxes strewn on the floor? Such standard cases might be more cost effective? As I alluded to previously an outboard crossover might lend itself to the option of bi or tri- amping for many models (with allowances made for CS5’s). Something that might be of particular interest to earlier models with bass eq’s. I have neither the time, tools or expertise to be of much help, but I do have 3 3.5 eq’s. I might be willing to lend 2 of them as guinea pigs for upgrade considerations. Balanced mono’s? In sympathy with updated cross-overs? Something(s) else?
The external XO in an ~8" cube would be unobtrusive to include in a living space. I am even more interested now that I know the dimension. Given that my goal is to optimize the SQ, adding this small cabinet behind the speakers is a no-brainer. I'll await the report of your trials.
I need to correct the record. Above I wrote:
no burn in time tho’ Tom thinks this is not necessary for resistors
But here are his words to me in a PM:
All components benefit from burn-in, including
resistors, but ESPECIALLY solder joints. The metallurgic structure
has been disturbed and somehow heals in use. I expect your job will
sound better over the coming weeks.
Apologies for misinterpreting an earlier message. I'll let the speakers run at least 100 hours before I do any serious comparisons.
Hello everyone. Thanks, beetle for the update and I appreciate whatever feedback you guys can give. There are so many considerations and development requirements, and so little time. But I am making progress. Unsound, indeed our crossover cases would be quite tidy, along the lines of an 8" cube and probably as an option. Heat dissipation and electromagnetic field management are the prime motivators. I will be comparing internal vs external in my PowerPoint-as-studio monitor experiment. Making it up as we go.
Regarding CS3.5s. Indeed they are worthy and among Thiel's biggest game-changers. However, redevelopment of that product should include the equalizer as either unbalanced or fully balanced and with greater sophistication applied. The bass equalization concept rocked, but its implementation could use improvement. Big project for which I am not personally qualified. Any takers? Also, the drivers were the last "modifieds" for Thiel. They had custom elements, but not Thiel's proprietary motor technologies or diaphragms - from-the-ground-up designs. I have chosen the CS3.6 for its more sophisticated proprietary drivers and more accessible solutions. The 3.5 is indeed a classic and I would consider collaboration with the right upgrade champion.
Ron, I have heard the 3.7 and 2.7 the day the finished 2.7 came to the Thiel music room, September 2012 - a room I had designed and built and in which I knew all acoustics and equipment. General thoughts: Over the years since the early 80s, the model 2 was a trickle-down product with the advantage of sunk-cost technologies developed for the 3 and with lighter loads re deep bass and ultimate sound pressure levels. An easier ride with a most-bang-for-the-buck mission. This time, outside designer(s) stirred the pot. My gestalt impression, knowing the long-term history and learning about and hearing this x.7 iteration of the dance, is that the 2.7 is voiced toward forgiveness. Jim was quite single-minded in choosing his solutions toward ultimate fidelity to the signal rather than "easier to take with most recordings". I found the 2.7 to be sweeter, but less resolving, even with the identical coax driver. Natasha Crane (my secret weapon) attended that session with her bat-ears and no hi-fi experience (a great advantage.) After the lights-out, presentation she said "the 3 is way better, but the 2 is friendlier".
My present path is to make a pair each of internal and external upgrade XOs for my PowerPoints and work with beetle's CS2.4s and learn what we learn. This project is front-burner, but shares priority with other demands on my time. The feedback of this group is helpful. Parts are trickling in.
hi Guys, I just acquired a beautiful set of demo 3.7's in maple. They are breaking in and so it is too early to comment on the sound. they can be pretty ragged at first but after a week they have improved a bunch. I am going to eventually sell my 2.7's as i cannot keep both (lucky you Prof.). Joseph Audio was also on my list but could not pass these up. would be curious to see if anyone ever gets to compare the two.
If anyone on the east coast is interested in the 2.7's, please feel free to write me at kent@thehubltd.com. I do have all boxes and everything, but shipping is so expensive.
Yeah, I'm not sure Thiel's would typically need such large cases for cross-overs, except perhaps for the CS5's. Perhaps something that resembled typical components might be found more acceptable to some?
If external cross-overs were to be considered perhaps both pre and post cross-over amplification could be considered too?
I am most curious about upgrades for the 3.5's! There are a few different things that could be done with that model.
those outboard crossovers are HUGE on the Avalons!
Those were arguably the best speaker on the planet when new, certainly on the short list. A three-way with high-order filters takes a lot of parts.
For my CS2.4s, I imagine a XO cabinet would be speaker width, maybe 10" deep and about 1' tall. The cabinet would be vented/screened top and bottom for maximal air flow.
I would be interested in upgrading the newer speaker.
Mr. Thiel is targeting the older models first partly because he thinks the X.7s are starting with better technology. Just guessing here but it will probably be late summer or fall before the first round of kits are available from Coherent Source. Anything for the X.7s will be beyond that timeline.
posts are on the back
Same with my SEs. Not an issue as the external cabinet is attached via cable or umbilical cord. Probably an inch or three between the cabinets. Actually, that brings up another disadvantage of the outboard solution: cost. In addition to the extra cabinet, cabling between the two is needed.
Thiels rule!
I’m optimistic that the new boards will elevate them to the next tier. As I wrote elsewhere, probably my last speaker.
I haven't tried to sell them yet. But I just got a nice trade-in offer to put towards some Devore speakers if I go that route. (Alternatively I'm still looking at possibly buying Joseph Audio speakers).
I wouldn't sell my Thiel 2.7s - they are too rare a find, I got too good a deal, and it's a sound I don't want to give up. But...I like speakers and don't mind having more than one sound to go to.
I've been interested if an upgrade was developed for my 2.7s. However I would not be inclined toward an outboard crossover. Aesthetics matter in my room.
(And, holy cow, those outboard crossovers are HUGE on the Avalons!)
That's great to hear. I would be happy with the option that provides the best sound fidelity. I have 3.7s (my old 2.2s are in the closet) so I would be interested in upgrading the newer speaker. Personally, the rear placement of the outboard crossover would work much better. But that might be a problem with the 3.7 since the posts are on the back, as opposed to underneath with the 2.2 model. Thiels rule!
Here’s an update on my CS2.4SE crossover upgrade project, including an update on Tom Thiel’s hot-rodding intentions. I’ve been PMing Tom for the past several weeks. He is directing most of my decisions and I’m providing him feedback as a beta-tester.
So far, I have ordered and received Mills MRA-12 resistors from Sonic Craft (the only vendor that had all the correct values). Mills should be a step up from the ERSE resistors used in many Thiel models. All but one of the resistors on my SE boards were not labeled with manufacturer but they are probably ERSE (or Xicon). I considered every resistor I could find that met Thiel’s spec. Dueland and Path Audio are widely regarded as the best resistors available but these are crazy expensive (~$30 each compared to ~$5 for Mills) and subjective reviews suggest their sonic performance is not commensurate with their price (hey, that sounds like a LOT of things in audio!). Mills MRA, I think, represents a clear upgrade over Thiel’s OEM resistors while also representing good value. Tom agrees and these will probably be included in the forthcoming kits.
I have these installed only on one channel so far. It took me about 3 hours and a second pair of hands but the second speaker should go faster with my experience other than there’s no help for my soldering gun which is less than professional grade (Tom Thiel recommended at least 140 W for the lead-free solder on Thiel boards; my gun is 180 W). I did this just yesterday, so no burn in time tho’ Tom thinks this is not necessary for resistors. My initial impression is that lower-level “grunge” has been removed, ie, the noise floor seems lowered. This is subtle but is quite worthwhile for the sound I seek! I will listen/compare more before I upgrade the other speaker, including in mono one speaker at a time. Look for further updates in the coming days and weeks.
Tom has been researching the many options among capacitors, including bypasses. He is very close to a final parts list for his Power Points and CS2.2 as well as my CS2.4, and has the layouts worked out (apparently, the CS3.6 will also be among his first “hot-rods”). He is planning point-to-point connections. My SEs, built in 2012 around the time Kathy Gornik sold Thiel, have printed circuit boards so Tom thinks I will hear an improvement just from that simple change. Only the coils and styrene bypass caps will be salvaged from the original boards. Most of the new caps will be sourced from Clarity and are custom sizes so it will be a few more weeks before he has these (and another delay before the kits become available).
Mr. Thiel’s goal is to maintain Thiel Audio’s adherence to neutrality, high resolution and fidelity to the input signal while improving the overall sonics via superior passive parts. But he also is balancing value, so e$$$oteric parts may not be on his list. Instead, I expect to see/hear a well-considered crossover upgrade that should be a readily audible sonic improvement - even compared to my SEs - yet in line with Thiel Audio’s value-oriented approach.
Tom is still in the “hot-rod kit” development process but I want to get this out now because he is wondering about the demand for taking the new crossovers outboard, ie, the new boards would be in their own cabinet just behind each speaker. The advantage of outboard is maximized sonic performance via isolation from physical and microphonic resonances. This would also allow substantially better cooling which is important for those who listen loudly! I think this would also be easier to install for DIYers (I’m guessing the eventual kits will be DIY or send your speakers to Coherent Source for Rob Gillum to do the work). Tom has the shop to potentially match our cabinets (altho’ black would be easier and matches the front baffle of most Thiels). I imagine a XO cabinet would be the same width as our main cabinets, maybe a foot or so tall. Finally, an outboard solution would increase the options for new bracing to further reduce main cabinet resonances. The main (only?) downside of an outboard crossover is reduced WAF.
Tom would like input from the larger community as he finalizes his plans. So, please respond “yea” or “nay” regarding outboard crossovers so that he can gauge interest.
Audience is an even better choice. Good to read about this brand mating well w/ the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. I have been trying to get an updated audition w/ Audience. I t has been over 10 years and several generations back (Au24) since my last demo. Audience's power conditioner is highly regarded as well.
My system is wired with Audience cables (AU24 SE and SX) for interconnects, power, and speakers. I demoed the Audience USB vs the Wireworld and chose the Wireworld. (I thought there would be a different outcome). Wireworld really has some excellent USB cables. Demoed both the Silver and Platinum 7 series. Each was excellent but slightly different. Also using Audience Power Conditioning.
Much Thanks! for the update. Good to read that VAC and Thiel are sonic matches. Keep us posted as you massage the Renaissance V into your system and room. I have often thought about the VAC integrated amp and its impact w/ Thiel speakers. Are you using all Wireworld cabling?
Another step on the Audio journey... Two new pieces going into the chain driving my CS2.4 pair this week. Friday I will be exchanging my VAC Renaissance III for a VAC Renaissance V. In addition I will be adding back the Wolf Audio Server and Wireworld 7 Platinum USB I auditioned before it travelled to Axpona. A server should not make a real differenc... is what I believed... I was astounded and thrilled at what the Wolf Alpha brought to my system and that the Thiels revealed all the positive changes. It was as good (sometimes better) than my analog source which has been my focus for years. I have traveled the VAC preamp route for many years and love their performance. Again the 2.4s were present when I upgraded from the VAC Standard LE I had for many years to the Renaissance III and allowed all the improvements to be heard. I am excited about this next change. I occasionally think about a different brand speakers but I’m not sure any would have allowed me the window into my system upgrades that Jim Thiel’s design has allowed me to enjoy.
The CS 2.4 should not exhibit any congestion of any kind? My demo of the Rega included the Rega Saturn-R player and a Macbook Pro (to show off the internal DAC/Computer Audio capability).
Double check all connections on all gear. Yes, agreed that the Rega is very capable. The Creek that I demo'ed was half powered and still sounded very fine with a NAD 565BEE player.
I’m glad to have this thread! I just ordered a pair of class D, Red Dragon m500 mkiis as an experiment of sorts.
The Rega is a capable amplifier indeed, but I find vocals at lower volume (particularly male, live vocals) completely unintelligible....things get congested quickly in the midrange. If I really crank the Rega, it clears up nicely but at the expense of to many decibels.
Mainly listening to digital these days through a Metrum DAC which honestly could be part of the problem. I hope the new amps will help sort it out. Looking forward to sharing results if anyone is interested!
Gee, I thought J. Gordon Holt and Stereophile in general have been quite flattering of Thiel's products. Here is the review of the previously mentioned CS 3's:
Larry Archibald had used first the CS 3.5's and then the CS 5's as his reference for what seemed to be quite an extensive time, first as editor and then as owner, before selling Stereophile to a major magazine conglomerate.
I have had the pleasure of listening to the Rega Elicit -R integrated on different speakers that sounded pretty good. Thiel speakers crave high-current. I am interested to learn the current output of your Rega?
It could be that the volume has to increase to gain a certain output level?
My first CS 2.4 listening experience was with a Creek integrated that did not have the power of your Rega. Remembering back, I did adjust the volume to musical taste. Hope this has been helpful.
I need to turn up the volume to get a decent ‘clarity’ from them.
Could be many things including your listening preferences. Could be that is the sweet spot for your gear. I’m running an Ayre AX-5 which has the same signal/noise ratio regardless of volume setting. But most preamps have a "best" sounding volume. Regardless, I’m reluctant to ascribe the effect to the Thiels.
BTW, stay tuned to this thread over the coming months. Tom Thiel is working on upgrades for legacy Thiel crossovers. The cs2.4 will be among the first tackled. The idea is to have DIY kits and/or upgrade service available through Coherent Source Service (Rob Gillum’s Theil service company). I expect these will bring sonic performance to a new level.
Running a lovely pair of 2.4s with a Rega Elicit R (105w/8ohms, 162/4ohms).
I really like the accuracy and rather flat response of the 2.4s but finding I need to turn up the volume to get a decent ‘clarity’ from them.
I prefer running at lower volumes as I live in a flat, but I find they sound quite muddled at lower volumes, but not always. For instance, midbass is just nonexistent below 11 o’clock volume level.
my question being- would they sound any clearer with a more robust amplifier or is that only an issue at higher SPLs? Just not understanding the relationship between ‘high current’ amplification and listening volume.
Danged tricky to respond to negative reviews if you're a manufacturer. Best just to cut your losses especially with someone like JGH. IIRC, Holt gave a tepid review to one of John Curl's designs (which was other wise widely praised) and it pretty much took the legs out from his company.
That said, Atkinson gave a rave review of the CS 2 2, so that might have canceled the negative press by Holt.
For myself, I use the magazines to help form a short list then rely my
ears thereafter. The reviewers are wrong too often! And they rarely have
much to say about value.
There are many "mid-priced" (it's all relative in this hobby!) products that sound nearly as good, if not outright better, than the $$$ designs. Too many reviewers (Fremer and everyone at TAS) start with the price tag . . .
Well, your and Jim's hard work, endless hours of perfection, certainly paid off big time- tomthiel.
You guys have a dedicated following here and across other Audio forums. Not every speaker company can make this kind of claim. Hope Mr. Rob Gillum is well and having fun.
As the designer, Jim received such invitations and did very occasionally indulge. Jim was private and work-oriented and did not enjoy schmoozing. He and Kathy attended Harry's 10th anniversary party with the reining who's who designers, and another home visit around the CS5. JGH was present at various home visits at Larry Archibald's home / office after Larry took the reins of Stereophile. I was farther in the background, generally working 100 hour weeks to make more speakers.
JA, the reviewer was J. Gordon Holt the founder of Stereophile who had gotten somewhat cranky by that time. A company chooses its style. Our stance was one of appreciation for editorial coverage, especially since it was nearly 10 years before we ever placed an ad anywhere. Stereophile Magazine became the finest editorial support any company could ask for, if the dared dream so well.
unless the senior reviewer in question played an Editor role as well, I would have most certainly called him out. An inaccurate or insulting review could have (potentially) hurt the future sales of reported loudspeaker model.
Proper imaging requires many aspects to come together, about which much has been written and we won't try to summarize. I will say that there are many ways to lose the information that results in a proper image. Cabinet effects including edge diffraction are a big deal as are lack of good transient response and even-handed timbral structure. But, in my opinion, phase coherence is the underappreciated core element. The ear-brain infers elements of space from time-arrival information along the harmonic structure. Jim's designs address that aspect extremely well. Years ago a respected reviewer took a pot shot at the Thiel (CS3 perhaps?) he was reviewing for its "ridiculous soundstage presentation". He complained that they made the classical recording seem like a birds' eye view, like he was in the rafters looking down. How silly! I sought out the recording engineer and, indeed, the mics were all hung overhead. We took that criticism as strong affirmation that we were accomplishing our goals of accurate image representation. We chose to not respond to the review, considering it bad journalistic manners and politics to call out a senior reviewer. To generalize, proper phase angle information is very spotty in recorded music. When it's right, the experience can definitely take the listener into the recording environment. Thanks for sharing, prof.
Thanks tomthiel for the update. I am anxiously waiting to hear what you come up with.
Thanks prof. Cool to hear. For me tonal balance and realistic timbre with in a realistic soundstage makes the music mesmerizing to listen to and seems to communicate the musical message really well.
Had a fascinating experience with the Thiel 2.7s last night.
As I’ve mentioned before, they image with a specificity like few other speakers in my experience.
Last night I was listening to the album in which the California Guitar Trio combined forces with the Montreal Guitar Trio for a live performance (album streamed from Tidal). So that is six acoustic (and sometimes electric) guitars lining the stage, close together.
The Thiels imaging was so laser precise that every one of those 6 guitars in a line were easily discernible from the one beside it! They just showed up corporeally in space and I could close my eyes and point directly to each single guitar, even during complex passages. The images of the guitarists were not recorded up front, but are portrayed at a distance. So the instruments are not full sized, but smaller as in further away. This puts the guitars relatively closer to each other in terms of the demands of speaker imaging, and the Thiels literally carved out each guitar in space where I could "see" one end and the other begin only inches away from the other.
For me this is one of the ways good imaging pays dividends - beyond the timbrel cues, he spacial specificity makes it easy to discern what any particular musician is playing in a mix. And the sensation of musicians playing in front of me is more pronounced.
(I’m definitely a "tone and dynamics first" guy, but I also require the speakers to disappear and image well to be fully satisfied spending big bucks on high end audio).
LOL. Turned out somehow (I don't know how) the thread sorting had switched from "oldest first" to "newest first" which is why all the new posts weren't appearing to me at the end. Whew! Never mind....
Anyone else experiencing weirdness with this thread? At least on my browser the posts now cut off at page 55 where the last posting date is early 2016.
I hope it's only a glitch on my end and that we haven't lost all the subsequent posts!
I am assembling a high resolution system with all Thiel speakers for developing acoustic guitar solutions as well as actual and consulting music production, in addition to developing potential crossover upgrades for classic Thiel speakers. By the way, all you A'goners, the upgrade project is proceeding, albeit a bit slowly due to the huge labyrinth of considerations. I have first-sample products on order and hope to have a report by the end of the month. I need an SS2. You may contact me at tomthiel@worldpath.net.
yes, there is a market for the SmartSub. You will not have any trouble selling it. Perhaps one of the contributors here will take it off of your hands?
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