Who are you refering to as designing froma molecular level? Who is this 3rd party? Somehow I'm missing something. I need a specific name. PM me if you want if that is an issue of being afriad of The Bashers. |
Bartokfan,
I was wondering why speakers that are designed from the molecular level up, would use a third party driver. However, this may only be marketing talk... |
"since many manufactures use Seas'..." like which others except Tyler? In europe there are several who use the Excel line.
Shadome I like how you put it, "Bartokfans prized Thors". Indeed they are. Especially after dumping $2200 on a DIY design I had a guy from madisound site to work out. His Initials are RC.
Anyone where did you read this "using a variation....initiate the collisions".
Interesting please follow up. I think you may help us all get to the bottom of the truth. Which many here feel is too elusive and a waste of time. That is everyone has his own preference , no one is right, no one wrong. Taste is a wide siiue. I do not believe it is like this, not in my 30 yrs of experience.
I do believe there is a certain standard in speaker voicing, gertting as close as possible to the actual recorded medium in the studio.
Some set up/speakers/amps, fall way short of this ideal. Many expensive ones too. So its not how much money is involved.
btw did you read that article on madisound's site about the Thor from AudioXpress may,2002?
You need to read that, everyone else as well.
The marketing hype is strong in all audio. Folks , like sheep, follow the crowd. they feel part ofa bigger whole. As you will notice I am the only one with the Thor, though there are others who have Tyler's, which came out after the Thor made its appearance back in late 90's I guess. 1995. I bought my Thor before Tyler made his appearance here on audiogon.
I did my DD and it paid off.
Anyone in the Baton rouge area is welcome to hear the speaker.
Waht are you saying 'use another manufacturers driver" Please explain
Paul |
Bartokfan,
Since many manufacturers use SEAS, the Thors kit must be extremely good and good value, as you remove one step in supply the chain. Ahh, but you completely lose all that marketing hype no full page adds and glowing reviews showing Bartokfan's prized Thors.
Being very familiar with the use of Green's functions(classical physics), I am puzzled when I read things like "Using a variation of the equations developed for advanced physics, called Green's functions -- the only math for working backwards from those molecular collisions at your ear to the speaker -- we then determine how the speaker must initiate the collisions"
My only retort to this kind of spiel is if you design from the molecular level why would you use another manufacturers driver?
Indeed Bartokfan has a point of view that deserves respect. If only to avoid us drowning in a sea of heavy marketing hype. |
i always make an effort to listen to the latest in dipole designs, although most are hybrid.
i'm curious to hear a current audiostatic. |
Because i keep harping about the seas driver line called excel.
There is an interesting story on the development of these drivers, I know. But+Where i read it , can't recall. If seas printed the entire story which would go back 30+ yrs ago, you'd be amazed.
Folks get upset with me for my particualr belief that the french, one particular lab, make the finest tube amp and the danes, one particualr lab, the finest speaker.
Its a personal belief that is made more sure each time i hear a system.
Folks don't care for these type personal opinions because they cannot be substantiated, except by my own ears. Which they feel might very well be bias and distorted.
I was into audio back starting in 1973-1981, and then picked it back up in 1998.
I've heard about 20+ lines of speakers/amps in the last 8 yrs.
My first really good speaker was acquired back in 1982, a speaker called philips 2 ways, stocked with danish drivers.
Then I got a pr of B7W 602's, not any better than the Philips, just voiced differently.
When the Seas Thor arrived , all the weaknesses of the Philips and BW's were clearly revealed.
I have yet to hear a speaker that matches the qualities of the Excel driver. Sure a good paper cone with the copper magnet as in the top line Scan Speak may offer a softer tad deeper warmer bass, but how's the clarity of the voicing on the coil? The Excel is claer, distinct, the fainest distortion. Many have attested to the incredible dynamics and power to the Excel Millinium Tweeter.
This speaker has been around since mid 90's. I am only suggesting you consider giving the line a listen in your audio journey. I know its difficult to access listening to a pr,. Tyler Speakers has a link on his site with a few of his customers that are willing to let you listen in their home. Also i believe he allows a grace trial period. Sure my Thor xover is not designed by Tyler, and I'm making every attempt to obtain a pr. That may come early next yr, maybe later this yr.
Read Sally's review in Absolute Sound this month. pass by Barnes and Nobel pick up a copy. Its that model I will try for.
Also go to madisound and navigate around the Seas/Excel kit site , there is aElink of audioVpress , may, 2002 with a write up on story behind the Excel and the Thor.
Do your DD (due diligence)Part of which is to read that AudioEpress article, read Absolute Sounds review of Tyler's Systems2, and go to Tyler;s site see if there is a home audition near you. The closest one to me is north of Jackson Miss, and is too far at the moment.
Also anyone in the Baton rouge area is welcomed to hear the Thor. |
"Anyone else here feel they do not need to hear from the newest, latest designs?
Seems every so often a new speaker comes on the market and everyone wants to own a pr. due to the rave factor."
Speakers are being built against someones own's opinion,and feel that things are too good to be true. People are on certain agenda's thinking they are doing a service to the "mis-informed" however they are the actual mis-informed. Seas has a few good drivers out there, however for myself most of the magnesium and metal cone type designs had certain character I did not find appealing at times.. Same with carbon Fiber and Kevlar, I choose paper. I love horns for a very different reason as well. So what, lets Stop buying the Newest or re-marketed designs guys to make everyone happy and the audiophile rules of all danish Drive systems will fix this for us. We can all accept that Danish Audio drivers are the end all be all, Right? We can't discount the fact that Seas, Scan speak, Morel, Focal and Dynaudio drivers are in fact the most pleasing drivers ever concieved can we? I mean come on guys we can still buy them wholesale at several outlets and should take advantage of the 500 different designs they provide us in D'appolito tweeter out of phase setups, they are always that good I swear! Honestly all kidding aside I got very tired of my JM labs, and Dynaudios, and even the Proac's for something different, does not mean they were not good or great, but they were not the end of the line is all. Had to jump on this one as all these silly threads get hijacked anyway. |
I haven't read all of Bartokfan's musing and I was just wondering why he brings out such pointed responses from a number of different people. It's always hard to discern anyone's true agenda so I just take what people say at it's face value, or at least I try to, most of the time. |
Onhwy61,
I suspect its not about the gushing, or regurgitation, of the same opinions that bring folks down on BF. While that other poster gushes a fair share, and can be less than a pleasure to endure, there is much more going on with BF which I'm sure you would discover if you were to read all of his posts.
But you are right, there is a certain similarity in overall style. For the most part though, Warren only gushes about end products of which he has first hand knowledge and actually uses in his own system. BF is not so humble, by some margin, and most often talks about other product authoritively and dismissively, I'm sure to the dismay of owners of this product and to potential users who might take his comments seriously (Audiofeils concerns, at least as I interpert them from other posts on this subject). I think Warren mostly gushes about his beloved products as any evangelist might, whereas I think BF has an entirely different set of motivations which are based on personal needs.
Thats just my view for what little its worth. If everyone, including myself, could be as resonable and rational as yourself! :-) |
How is Bartokfan's love letter to Seas any different than say Warrenh's posts about his current speaker or Mikelavigne's odyssey with his VSAs? If you can't be gushingly enthusiastic about something as inconsequential as loudspeaker choice, then what can you go over the top about. If it's a question of relative knowledge, then we're all somewhere on a learning curve and we shouldn't forget where we've come from.
Bartokfan, you would gain added credibility if you would post your system. Do you have one of the Seas kits, or one of Tyler's Seas based speakers? |
Lay off Bartok. I'm still trying to figure out the national debt, deficit, or whatever problems we have with free trade and no trade as they pertain to the KT-88 versus KT-90 tube using Seas drivers with a Jadis or Cayin amplifier because China is the wave of the future.
Somebody 'splain it to me. |
Tarsndo, Zaikesman, and I guess Ellery911 as well, Give Bartockfan a break! Everybody gets lonely from time to time and the 'net makes you feel like you are communicating with someone. Even negative feedback is better than none at all, it proves someone is listening or at least reading your posts. I just hate it when folks ignore my musings.
Think how tough it would be if everyone ignored him. He'd probably stop posting and go over to AA or somewhere, or really do something drastic. Oh, you say he's been to AA before and no longer posts there. Come to think of it I do recall an unregistered poster in the Speaker forum making a fool of himself. Name was Paul and he was from LA somewhere. Could that have been our Bartockfan...nah, that guy was over-the-top rude and deceptive, not just inexperienced and uninformed. Really made an ass of himself. He was wasn't even registered and he psyudo'd up another poster's moniker and posted on his 'behalf' stuff which the other guy would never have said. But that wouldn't have been our Bartockfan, I'm sure....
Just think on it Ellery, if he is immune to insults and keeps reading responses, he might learn something and become a valuable contributor. Just might.....
What's that you say about Porky becoming an aviator?
:-) |
Burt...I mean Bart....that's like Simpson right?
I just have one question...why was it necessary to change your agon SN?
well...2 questions.
After people make you look like a fool over and over...are you gonna change it again? |
Onh, I've only tried the Thor. I have plans to add the Tyler 3 ways which will give me slight more bottom end, sometime next yr, maybe later this yr. If there is something Hopefully Ty has the 3 way voiced the way i prefer. I may ask him to put in all premium parts in the xovers. Hovland Musicaps etc. No bars hold.
I think Seas' has put everything they built up in research over the past 30 yrs and this is their "baby". IOW's Excel 2's may be some time off. In fact I'd bet if I wrote them that question the answer would be "upgrade not anytime soon" and they'd ask "why, anything wrong with your Excel sound?" ...me "no, just being stupidly curious"
So far no driver I've heard has equaled the Seas.
I see someone has mentioned on my speakers for tube topic that tubes loves horns.
I've not heard a good horn speaker. I think that may be of interest to me. However that design I believe can be expensive. Out of my reach, still I'd love to hear a horn speaker.
Looking at the pic of a Excel is not the same as holding one in your hands. |
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Two points, since Seas is an OEM driver manufacturer does it matter how they are used in a particular design or are you equally happy with any implementation of their products by any loudspeaker designer/manufacturer?
What are you going to do when Seas introduces a new and improved product line and discontinues the models you like? |
It is over for me. Speakers that are good enough for extensive use in many of the world's top recording and mastering studios, are certainly more than good enough for me. |
"Do you feel like you are on a merry-go-round?" No, and I don't plan to, which is why I'll say bye to this unpromising tro...I mean thread, before it begins. |
Bartokfan,
The real fun starts when you stop being a tourist and build your own equipment. Then the next "upgrade" is a direct reflection of your efforts to educate yourself and application of that knowledge and not the swipe of a credit card.
Now I can only imagine how long it's going to take me to design my first surround processor. :) |
