Thanks, Raul.
I was using a standard 2-points Baerwaald alignment.
I've primarily used the dial (spring) to set tracking force - of course verifying with an accurate tracking force gauge (see http://www.galibierdesign.com/images/digital_scale_adaptor_med.jpg for my interpretation of the setup that Wally sells).
I'll set the indicator for say 2.5 gms (Denon DL103R) and then adjust the counterweight until I read this on the scale.
I haven't played much with setting the spring force to zero. I know I have not worked to get the most out of this very fine tonearm.
Please note that when I said "mechanical" it was only in comparison with the Schroeder. I was searching for a means if differentiating the two arms.
I haven't used any damping - primarily because I move arms around so much that I hate making messes :-(( My suspicion (allowing of course for the very real possibility of being wrong), is that I'll prefer the arm undamped. There's only one way to know for certain however.
You are absolutely correct - that I need to give this arm more attention. I can no doubt get it to sound even better.
Cheers,
Thom |
Dear Thom: Maybe you already know that the Micro tonearm instructions for set the overhang it's different from the universal two points setup, these two method give you two differents overhang and different sound reproduction. Which one do you use it? and when you are hearing like a " machine ", how much damping do you use? and which arm wand do you use?
Btw, other way to use the MAX 282 dinamically balance tonearm is in static mode balance: here are some differences in the sound reproduction.
All these issues are very important for the evaluation of this tonearm.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Frank: I read, through the Thom/Galibier web site ( excellent one ) and AA , all about the differents wood arm wands Self damping: long fibres, etc.. ) and their choices about effective mass/compliances that you already post.
I don't have an intensive experience in my own system with your tonearms but I have experience with wood arm wands ( like Grace tonearm ) and with wood build audio items: TT, clamps, cartridges, etc,, and the wood like any other material has it's own " signature ": a little " soft " sound reproduction, including hard wood like Ebony.
I wonder if the bass signature of your arms has to " see " with your wood arm wands choice instead metal ones, I think that the wood is the problem with that kind of low bass reproduction.
Frank, I don't want to be controversial here I'm only try to understand what really happen with the low bass Schroeder reproduction, because I think that it will be very difficult to fix it with wood arm wands.
Btw, you have a stunning design and this is not the point here. Do you already try other materials than the wood: a metal one? how they sound against wood?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Frank,and Galibier systems,
Thanks for possibly ruining my summer,here in New Jersey.I was totally happy rationalizing not having to spend any more money on this hobby,for at least another year or two,and very interested in obtaining two,new,and pricey tennis rackets.These new rackets would help me to drive my "topspin" backhand past my most competitive "court" enemies,all summer long.As of now,I'm not putting enough "juice" on my backhand passing shots.You know,Frank,like "BECKER" did to Lendl and MacEnroe,for years.I had hoped to do the same,this summer,but,thanks to this NEW recent thread,along with the plethora of supporting candy(to me)from the Galibier website,I will probably have to start saving my pennies.
I'll be cursing you,Frank,every time I approach the net,and am passed by one of my "Arch Rival's" shots.Thanks Alot!!! |
Dear Tom: +++++ " Of course, the Micro sounds like a machine..." +++++
I own all the differents arm wands for the MAX 282 and I already try each one with differents cartridges and never give me the impression of a " machine " ( very far from that ), right now I'm using the XP 282SM with the Goldbug Brier: stunning combination, rivals anything you already heard.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Doug that was a great observation. We should all pay our respects to Vinyl-dom on a regular basis. |
Thom,
Thanks for reminding me about the Parnassus/platinum -> Olympus upgrade path. Frank did mention that and explained it just as you have. One friend of mine who owns a Parnassus is considering it. He also owns a UNIverse, so he'll be more spoiled than any audiophile has a right to be.
Thanks to you and Frank both for all the fine-tuning ideas. I'm sure all here would agree with your take on "responsive" vs. "finicky" components.
Dmailer,
The second picture of you on Thom's owner's page is priceless. Kneeling at the alter of vinyl-dom! I genuflect before mine weekly, just to remind it who's boss. |
Frank - thanks for your helpful response and to Thom for further enlightenment into the mysterious art of vinyl set-up.
I just re-visited the thread links on the Galibier Schroeder page and there is such a wealth of helpful information available. |
Hi Frank, all ...
Not only does a link to your "keeper" post land on my Schroeder FAQ page, but I'm framing it !!
Your comments have great value for owners of all tonearms - not just Schroeders. For example, I encourage Rega owners with aftermarket counterweights to play with the set screw tightness as well as their cartridge screw mounting tightness.
I recently delivered a turntable to someone who also owns a Micro MX-282. Quite a few former Platine-Verdier owners have this arm. He was quite amazed at its tuneability - an arm he had on his Platine for 3 years.
-----
In my setup procedure, I had been working by starting with the counterweight, then moving to the other parameters (headshell screws, magnet spacing). I would begin with a close magnet spacing and then tune for air and bloom by working the counterweight set screw tightness. From there, I'd work back to the magnet spacing and headshell screw.
This procedure has gotten me to 99% of the bass performance of my Micro Seiki MX-282 which I consider to be as good as any arm I've heard in this regard.
Of course, the Micro sounds like a machine (as you work your way further up the spectrum) in comparison with the organic sound of the Schroeder - a liability, in case you have any doubts about my listening biases.
My setup (as heard by Flyingred) is another case of thinking you're done when you've actually stopped before reaching the finish line. Because I listen to mostly acoustic music, I had not chased this last bit of bass performance, but you've once more inspired me to get even more out of my setup, Frank.
I need to re-emphasize something because in reading this and other threads you may get the wrong impression.
Don't for a moment consider any of these setup comments to be statements that a Schroeder is a finicky tonearm. Quite the opposite is the case. I look at this as the arm being responsive to adjustment.
As Frank and I have mentioned, much of this setup protocol is applicable to many other tonearms.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Hi Frank: Tha's all about: first hand info, great Frank.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hello Flyingred, hi Raul,
As this might be of interest to you and other Schröder owners, I'd like to give a little advice on how to tighten up the bass and/or add bottom end "authority". I gladly agree that, if not perfectly adjusted("tweaked"), bass tightness and punch might not be up to the rest of the spectrum.
Try the following: Adjust the gap between the magnets until you've reached maximum topend "air" and extension without loosing the focus of individual instruments yet(no more than 0.5mm in my experience). Now tighten the counterweight grubscrew incrementally which will get you a tighter bass. Too tight and the midrange purity will suffer a tad. Now if you find the image too "tightfisted"(foreshortened decays), slightly reduce the torque on the screw that holds the headshell plate. This should result in a further improved rendition of the recording venue's accoustic.
Finally go back to the VTA and gap setting(smaller gap:tighter bass, less bloom). Make sure that for every change in the gap you alter the VTA setting accordingly.
The finetuning of the tracking force should follow lastly, but since the optimum setting is temperature dependent you might want to recheck every three months or so(to some extent true for all carts regardless of the arm in use).
In some cases(cartridges with little inherent cantilever suspension damping) the addition of a drop of silicon damping fluid(wiped off onto the bearing thread so it can "travel" down into the well) will yield a tighter bass. Too much silicon and the rendition of microdynamic differences will suffer(usually not recommended).
And a final note about the wiring. Those customers ordering the arm with the thin solid core wire should know( and I'm telling my dealers to relay that message) that it takes a long time(2-3months, 2hours playtime a day) for this wiring to break in. At first it will sound too thin! So give it a little time, once broken in, the bottom end will not sound undernourished, highs will be pure(not sweet as in sugary), then again, it's what you're hearing, not what I'm telling you to hear, that matters...
Have fun guys,
Frank |
Hi Doug,
You can still get an Olympus. It takes is some leg work however, along with the requisite cost of entry.
You need to first locate a Lyra Parnassus with platinum magnets (not the Parnassus DCT). All you're after are the magnets. If you want to buy some time to listen to the Parnassus, then by all means it should be a working cartridge.
Lyra will then build an Olympus for you - recycling only the magnets. For reasons I don't understand, the Platinum magnets are unobtanium, but if you provide them, an Olympus can be yours.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
I really wanted to finish the last 90 pages of "The Da Vinci Code",that was given to me as a birthday gift.Now,with all this delicious new stuff to read through,I'll have to hold off on "Langdon's search for the HOLY GRAIL".Thanks!! |
Dmailer,
Congratulations! I've heard my Shelter 901 on a Ref (in Cello's system). It never sang on any arm like it sings on that one.
OTOH, the ZYX models Cello mentioned all outplay the 901 pretty easily. Flyingred is correct that the Airy 2's bass can be suspect in some systems and rooms. That is not an issue with the Airy 3 or (especially) the UNIverse however. The ZYX UNIverse/Schroeder Ref combo is the second best thing I've heard. The best ever was Frank's Lyra Olympus, but they don't make that any more. The UNIverse came so close to the Olympus that we had to go back and forth quite a few times to ascertain the differences.
Enough on cartridges. You've got one of the world's premier arms, which I'm sure you'll enjoy for life. It's a true work of art as well as the supreme expression of a great man's love for music and vinyl.
Doug |
Hi Topoxforddoc: You have to have the MC2 Finish: it's a must!!. Nothing ( that I know and heard ) come close: real music !!!!.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dmailer: Congratulations !!!. Now, if you like the Shelther sound I urge you to go for the 90X, it will shine with your " new baby ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi Flyingred: +++++ " mounted on the Schroeder Ref when compared to gimbal arms (Micro Seiki MAX 282 and Morch DP6) I thought the bass reproduction was slightly looser when they were mounted in the Schroeder compared to the other arms. " +++++
Yes, you are right: the bass reproduction is one of the " Aquiles heel " on the Schroeder tonearms, other way very fine tonearms.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Gosh,
You're all making me blush, but I humbly accept the compliments. I can take the good with the bad. Those of you who want to see photos of Larry and his rig, can see it on my Owner's page:
http://www.galibierdesign.com/systems_larry_keatts.html
All that I can tell you about availability is that Frank shoots for 4 months, but has been dreadfully behind this year. He lost a month alone due to a repetitive strain injury. Frank is working back toward this 4 month goal, but I strongly suspect this won't be reached before the end of the year. My best guess is that the average wait time is holding at 5 months.
Larry had a requirement for a custom length arm cable, and Garth's (Incognito wire) move from the Continent to Canada threw a further monkey wrench into the scheduling of his arm. He was great about it, and I know it's not easy to wait after you've made such a commitment.
Because all Schroeder dealers have limited arm availability due to world-wide demand, it becomes difficult to hedge your bets and to pre-order. At the beginning of the year, I pre-order 40% of my annual tonearm allotment by ordering Model-2's with Pertinax arm wands along with extra (brass) cartridge carriers.
Of course, I need to leave the remaining 60% for the remaining yearly demand - for References and DPS's which are impossible to preconfigure due to the list of available options to choose from, as well as for any other Model-2's.
So, depending on the time of the year, a Model-2 can arrive at your door anywhere from 2 weeks to 5 months. If any Schroeder dealer promises you a 2 month wait however, I would query him as to exactly what this means. I've pondered the idea of pre-ordering a 9" Jacaranda arm wand Reference (this is ideal for 90% of my Schroeder customers), but as soon as I do, I know they'll fall out of fashion.
When we set up Larry's arm, I commented to him that the problem with good arms like Schroeders and Triplanars is that you think you're done, when you have achieved perhaps only an "80% setup". The arms are so good, that unless you fiddle a bit, you may never realize how good they really are.
I'm planning on producing a setup DVD by the end of the year to help people through not only Schroeder setups (although this will be the focus) but all tonearms. There are so few competent dealars extant, that this has become a necessity.
Choosing between Shroeders and fine gimbaled arms is indeed a matter of taste, and I would be the last person to tell you that a Triplanar is chopped liver. Of course, I sell them because I believe in them as being a very viable option. The Micro Seik MX-282 that Flyingred heard (with a DL 103R) is a stunning tonearm - in the league of the Triplnar and the Schroeder. While my listening biases lean toward the Schroeder, I could easily live with a Triplanar or my Micro forever. Different compromises.
One should not get the impression that because I devote less "real estate" on my website to Triplanars that they are not deserving of your attention. Quite the opposite is the case. The Schroeder section developed primarily due to all of the misinformation out there about the arms.
As I worked my way through all of this, and reviewed my understanding with Frank, the pages evolved to the extend they have. I'm proud to have what I consider to be the best organized Schroeder page on the web. I've compiled posts Frank has made on several forums and provided the links on my Schroeder FAQ's page. Frank addresses the issues of arm wand selection, cartridge compatibility, and other commonly asked questions.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
I'm glad you're enjoying your Reference. I purchased my Model 2 about 2 years ago and it was a revelation; I waited 4 months for mine. I use an Allaerts MC1B on mine and it is an excellent match on my Platine Verdier. Fed through my Tron Meteor tube preamp (www.tron-electric.com, made by Graham Tricker at GT Audio, UK - also distributor for Frank's arms as well as Avantgarde, Verdier, DPS, Lindemann, ZYX etc), Quad IIs and Avantgarde Duos, it sounds like real music or at least pretty close. Having started out in the hifi business in the 1980s with Ken Kessler, I progressed onto other things (I'm a surgeon by trade). With that background, you might say that I have a penchant for vinyl and tubes - Yep! The Allaerts is a great pickup; I still have my original Decca London Gold (Garrott Brothers) which was stunning when I had it modded by them in the early 1980s. The MC1B just blows it, and my memories of it at its pomp, out of the water. By the way, Deccas work very well in Frank's arms. |
I have the 9" Jacaranda arm. The turntable I am using is an early Redpoint Testa Rosa. I purchased this from Thom when he and Peter had developed Redpoint. I have one their earlier aluminum platters with the teflon top. The Galibier and Redpoint tables are very well made and I believe can compete with the very best. I am always upgrading equipment but I do not feel that I will ever have the need to upgrade my TT and arm at this point. You would have to discuss payment terms for a Schroeder with Thom. When I ordered I gave him 50% down. |
Socoaste
I exchanged e-mails with Frank Schroder regarding armwand lengths. Longer arms have less tracking distortion. However, longer arms are not as rigid and more prone to vibrations. It is a trade off. Frank feels that for his arms, the 9" (222mm) is the best compromise. I had originally wanted a 12" arm. Frank talked me out of it. YMMV |
So.......What type of WOOD did you get on the Wand?
And what length? I think the Reference comes in any
length from 8.5" to 12"
I am thinking of ordering the Schroder II
since I don't have the big bucks for the Ref.
I own the Shelter 501 & the Music maker3.
How much money did you have to pay up front to get
the Arm ordered?
You definitely have some nice electronics there, what Table did you say you have? |
Dmailer I second your endorsement for Thom of Galibier - he's a genuine enthusiast and a great guy.
I know that Zyx are very popular around here and I heard an Airy 2 on a Schroeder Ref/dps. It was almost perfect - wonderful openness and neutrality however it lacked bass weight and extension (on Stones-type rock cuts) and I personally couldn't live with that compromise.
I have also heard a DL103 and a Koetsu Urushi Vermilion mounted on the Schroeder Ref when compared to gimbal arms (Micro Seiki MAX 282 and Morch DP6) I thought the bass reproduction was slightly looser when they were mounted in the Schroeder compared to the other arms.
The kind of sound you're aiming for and the music you play will dictate your cart choice (I would expect the Zyx to sound be great on small acoustic ensembles but not for organ works), however if you're happy with the Shelter sound....
The other cart I'm curious to hear in a Schroeder is the Jan Allaerts MC1B. |
I use an Airy3 LO on a DPS (described as 98% a reference by Herr Schroeder) and works well. The magnetic damping control is quite slick and effective. I use the K&K Phono stage. |
In my case lengthy was 7 months. Apparently Frank had some issues with Incognito, his termination source which relocated from Europe to Canada during the time my arm was ready for termination. This just added to what was already a rather long lead time. Regardless the arm is worth the wait. My system is currently an early Redpoint/Galibier Testa Rosa with an aluminum/teflon platter. I am using Bent Audio's S&B stepups and a Hagerman Trumpet phono. This is going into Lamm's L2 line stage and ML1 monoblocks. Speakers are Rick Reimer's Tetons. I have experimented with the damping adjustment and it does have a major effect. If you are careful you can make this adjustment while the record is playing which makes detecting the difference even easier. I too seem to prefer the damping not quite as low which results in a more open sound. I have heard alot of good things about the ZYX cartridges. My concern may be the lower ouput level and the match with my electonics more then the match with the tonearm. I will check out Doug's ZYX reviews. My Shelter 901 sounds very good in my system so I have also thought of maybe upgrading to the 90X. I guess at these levels personal preference and system matching is the key. |
.
Dmailer,
.
The ZYX Airy2, Airy3 and UNIverse would all be great matches for the Schroder Reference with the UNIverse leading the pack by a large margin.
.
The Airy3 is superior to the Airy2 in many ways, but the Airy3 can be a bit bright in some systems and depending on your taste. If you budget allows, the UNIverese is a no brainer and would be magical with the Reference and great value for the money.
.
Read Doug Deacon's review of the UNIverse and his reviews of the Airy2 and Airy3
.
UNIverse = http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1117141508&read&keyw&zzuniverse
Airy 2 & Airy 3 Reviews = http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1104115011&read&keyw&zzuniverse
.
Rgds
Larry |
Dmailer
The wait is certainly worthwhile. I think the simplicity of the design in great - everything you need is there, but the implimentation is form following function. What is the rest of your system?
I'd suggest you experiment with the gap between the magnets. I thought the 2 card guide a bit too little and ended up slightly higher but sounding more "relaxed".
Thom's site has a link to the "suggested" cart matches which Frank posted some time ago on VA. I personally think it will match with virtually any cart so long as its within the 8-12hz arm/cart resonance range. But if you really must have a "best" match, then I'd say try an Allaerts.
Did Thom suggest using any dampening oil for the wire? |
May I ask how lengthy is lengthy? |
