George,My business is in Middlesex county.Went to a Harry Partch concert at Montclair Univ,and it was a blast.
BTW,and do not take this personally,as you appear to be a good fellow.I'm a bit paranoid about revealing too much on the web.I know of some who have had their homes broken into.Pretty sad state,though my home is monitored by the police,and has a ton of various home security systems.Hey,I'm originally from New York,where almost everyone is paranoid. |
Sirspeedy, if you go to the "support" page on the Galibier site, half way down the page you will find a section headed "arm and cartridge set-up." There's an Excel spreadsheet you can download to calculate resonant frequencies.
With the Temper's mass of 7.5g and 15 cu compliance, the bocote arm gives a resonant frequency of 9.31 Hz.
Incidentally, I think the Galibier site is one of the best-organized analog resources available - certainly better than any other manufacturer's.
I agree with your comments about flexibility of set-up on the Schroeder and the ability to "voice." Having heard References in three different systems, I've found it interesting that each owner's preferred set-up reflects their taste in music and their "ideal" presentation. |
Hi Raul,
The "J" shaped 'Seikis have always intrigued me. I have an MA-505 Mk III (straight, removeable arm wand) which is on lone to a friend. Another friend has a MK I version of the arm which is indeed "J" shaped with removable headshell.
It's been on my mind to bring a Sumiko headshell I have lying around in my parts box to experiment with Azimuth adjustment for him.
The Sumiko headshell is quite nicely made - machined from a solid aluminum billet. It has a small hex screw which locks down a collet. When loosened, you can adjust the azimuth.
Considering its price of $40, I'd recommend that anyone with a universal headshell tonearm pick one of these up before Sumiko decides to stop making them (disclaimer - no affiliation or commercial interest ...). I've seen them for sale at the Needle Doctor.
Cheers,
Thom |
Dear Thom: I have severals headshells and many of them wuth the azimuth adjustement, but no: I don't have the Sumiko.
If I can, this weekend I would like to try the J Micro tonearm. I let you know about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I have a new,latest for me,spin on our beloved little analog subject.I'm currently in wait,for a matched set(3 for my phono stage)of the LOWEST NOISE Siemens(grey getters)small signal tubes,that I have EVER seen.These appear to have been sourced from GOD's private stash.
I already have some "primo" phono tubes in circuit,however I am feeling pretty good about trying out these new babies.I've already tried 7 different types in my phono section,and will be ending my plight this weekend,hopefully.
PLEASE,don't anyone ask what I payed for these,I'm embarassed to say!! |
Flyingred,do you feel then,that the Bacote tube best matches the Tranny?Also,how about the additional 3 gms offered up by the Jacaranda and Tiger Wood?Possibly ,still,a good match for the Tranny,with an eye/ear on the possibility of future,slightly heavier cartridges?What do you think?Thanks!! |
Sirspeedy I don't think I'm qualified to advise you. However I went back to the spreadsheet and that cartridge in tigerwood/jacaranda gives a resonant frequency of 8.66 Hz. The ideal range "green zone" is 9 to 11 Hz, however on AJ Van den Hul's site, the 'yellow zone' is 8 to 12 Hz.
On that basis, I reckon either of those are viable.
I was tempted by bocote for my Reference but checking out the pics on Thom's site, I don't like the look of the wood. I also looked at the cartridges that it would allow me to run and, in reality, everything I would want to play with (Koetsus, DL-103 and Dyna XX-2) work better in a 15g armwand. I like the look of jacaranda over tigerwood, so that's what I'm getting.
You have to remember that it's not just the cartridge mass, but also the compliance that counts. Low compliance favors higher mass tonearms.
If you're thinking of buying a Schroeder, if you order now you'll be lucky to take delivery this year. I reckon that's far enough away for you to enjoy a state of the art tennis racket this season and still be able to pay for your arm when it's ready in the new year!
Put your order down, you know it makes sense! :-)
(Disclaimer: No commercial relationship with any of the above - just an impressionable audiophile). |
Hi guys,
Recently I had the opportunity to measure f-res of a TemperV in a 14gr. Tigerwood armwand and it came out to be 10,5Hz. Just goes to show you that published specs don't always correlate with actual measurements, just as , for quite some time, most samples of the Denon DL103 seem to have a higher compliance than the published spec(5cu). In reality, the last three samples that went through my hands were closer to 8cu.
Cheerio,
Frank |
Sirspeedy:
It was never my intent to obtain your home address. I was simply interested in finding out if there were any audiophile clubs/groups in my neck of the woods. By the way, I spent most of my formative years in Brooklyn
George |
Hi all,
The whole res. freq. thing is certainly intriguing. Keep in mind that you can go a bit lower than the 10hz number depending on the turntable you're running.
This 10-12Hz range was arrived at as a means of splitting the difference between 20 Hz and the res. freq. of a typical turntable's suspension (3-5 Hz). With an unsuspended 'table you can go a bit lower.
Having said that, a Benz LP is a poor match for both the MX-282 and an 18 gram Ebony arm wand Schroeder Reference. In both arms it is a bit sluggish sounding. OTOH, it sounds very nice in a Triplanar with its lower effective mass.
Cheers,
Thom |
Dear friends: I already post in the past: I try to match cartridges/tonearms combinations with out take in count their resonance frecuency and till to now I 'm sucess about.
I'm not saying that the resonance frecuency is not important, it is but there are many issues others than the resonance frecuency that define the quality sound reproduction of " that " combination.
I can tell you many examples, one of them: the Ortofon MC 2000 is 11gr./20cu and I try with severals tonearms and with a very high mass SAEC tonearm was its best sound/match ( resonance frecuency: 4.5Hz ), right now I'm trying the MC 2000 with another high mass tonearm: Dynavector DV-505.
So, we have not to be " crazy " to meet exactly the resonance frecuency for an excellent performance.
When I ask to Jan Allaerts about the compliance of the MC2 Finish Gold for I can match with a tonearm, here is his answer:
+++++ " Hi Raul,,
The compliance from our cartridges is not relevant, if you have a good arm and turntable , you can track 300 µmm, with this cartridge so if you calculate and project this to compliance you get 70 but nobody believe that so, the important thing is the arm can work with cartridges from 10 Gr mass and more,
Second if you build in the cartridge set in full parallel to the record, first after ( with 180 our 200 Gr vinyl ) you listen to voice on a record and put the arm a little higher no lower settings and adjust you have the most air our room around the voice that play, that is the point you leave it normal is this 1 our 2 mm higher ( NO MORE )
Regards
Jan " +++++
I try my MC2 with seven tonearms and the best match is with the SME IV.
My experience tell me that there are some " things " that I can't explain in full scientific way or common sense about the " irrelevant " resonance frecuency issue: the MC 2000 example is not the only one: I test a cartridge/tonearm combination that its resonance frecuency is 10Hz and sounds only good and the same cartridge with other tonearm with 6Hz resonance frecuency sounds excellent. This can tell me that the resonance frecuency can be only that a: resonance frecuency value.
So, Sirspeedy/Flyingred: don't worry too much about. There are other issues that defines the sound reproduction quality: cartridge frecuency response, load impedance, tonearm energy dissipation, tonearm ringing, tonearm vibrational damping, tonearm wiring, tonearm bearing or not bearing, arm board, TT, phono preamp accuracy, etc, etc, ....
Btw, Thom my LP never sound better than with my MAX 282. We have differents experiences with the same cartridge and one of the reasons is that we have differents audio systems and maybe differents music/sound reproduction priorities.
The stereo home music/sound reproduction is a very complex process that have many " sides/faces ", that's is what do so interesting and always a challenge.
}
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Is there a case for coming up with a TT's "compliance" figure and taking that into account? That would be acceptable for a suspended TT -- but rather nebulous in other cases I guess...:( OTOH, mass of the TT's moving parts probably play a role too, in the cartridge-tonearm combo's performance.
Is there a mechanical engineer out there who could consider the case? |
Frank,
A friend with much experience with the Denon 103 family believes the 5cu spec is for vertical compliance only. His measurements indicate a lateral compliance of about 10cu, much closer to the mainstream of cartrdiges. Does that tally with your experiments?
On the whole I'm with Raul on this topic. Science has only gone so far, and it's not far enough to provide all the answers. While gross mismatches should probably be avoided - unless you own 15 arms, 30 cartridges and love to experiment! - it is a waste of time trying to predict musical performance from mass and compliance numbers. There are other factors, not published in anyone's specs, that effect how any arm/cartridge combo will sound. |
George,sorry,I don't want to come off as a snob.Your question was a compliment.For that,thanks.You may know some of my BKLYN pals,though.Do you know Sid Marks,or Dave Nemzer? |
Hi Doug, Raul ...
I wonder if I am doing a disservice by publishing the mass/compliance chart. I think some explanatory notes should be added and I will do so.
This all goes back to listening being the final arbiter of "goodness". I need to put some sort of advisory on the spreadsheet to the effect that treating the numbers as being an instant recipe for success is just not possible.
The idea was keep people from starting off with completely wacky combinations like a Shure with an SME 3012R. Now, some have reported success with weird combinations, and I'm not saying that it isn't possible If you were a gambling man however, it wouldn't be the smart place to start, unless (through lists like this) you hear reports of special combinations making magik.
If people get out of this that once you "run the numbers", you are done, they will likely be stopping short of the finish line.
As both of you have wisely observed, the numbers are only the beginning of the story. As you have no doubt have experimented, two different combinations resulting in the same res. freq. can result in one combination sounding at or near its best, with the other one sounding ... er ... suboptimal.
The Benzes seem to be one example of it being dangerous to go too low - below 8 or 9 Hz (as observed - not calculated). OTOH, Denons and Dynavectors for example are quite happy down in that range - at least on unsuspended decks.
Cheers,
Thom |
Dear Thom: The mass/compliance chart is a great service to all. It is the best advise to start about and I agree with you to " put some sort of advisory ..".
Well done.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
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Hi everyone,
A few additional thoughts on the issue of an "ideal" fres of the arm/cart combo. I second Rauls observation, that even "non-textbook" combinations can give stunning results. It is in the often found case that the table/arm/cart is exited by footfall or other causes, like record excentricity or, quite common, heavy, mass loaded decks, sitting on top of tall racks(doing the Eiffel Tower dance), that the choice of a f.res that is least perceptible to being excited is beneficial.
This doesn't always mean the f.res has to be farthest away from the f.exite. If your f.res is a (2nd,3rd)multiple of f.excite, the alteration of f.res, be it lowering or raising(sometimes by a small amount only), will result in a sound improvement, more so with undamped arms than with damped arms.
This is why I aim at 11Hz. Most suspended tables have a f.suspension no higher than 4,5Hz, so you should be safe at anything higher than f.res=9Hz. Your suspension resonates at a lower frequency? You're safe going lower than 9Hz.
If you have a mass loaded deck, then footfall or the deck on a tall rack forming the bob of a reversed pendulum are your main concerns(the deck moving sideways, not up and down).
On the other hand, going higher than f.res=14hz will have an effect on the low frequency response of your system, in the worst case causing your amp to waist power on the speakers, prematurely saturate the output trannies on your tube amp,, or (a friend experienced it on some BIIIG Infinity Speakers, -3db at 15Hz) severe feedback.
If your table is mounted on/like a rock, or it's suspension is well designed, then you get to enjoy listening to any combination your collection allows you to put together and the actual sonic qualities of the arm or cart will dictate the outcome.
Sounds like Raul is one of those lucky guys!
All the best,
Frank |
Very good points Frank. Btw, I work ( for years ) hard with my system for to have " luck " about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Yup! What y'all said.
Last night I put in the caveat on my spreadsheet for the unsuspecting.
It's interesting - I'm also finding the maximum safe bottom f. res. at about 9 Hz. A bit lower can work with some carts. but 9 seems to be safe number (solid stand, unsuspended deck).
What is obvious to us, is not always obvious to the newbie.
Cheers,
Thom |
Thom: Great!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Considering the panoply of equipment you are using I would be more concerned about the MC step-up to (proposed) cartridge matching. |
Hi Jhendrixfan,
I'm not sure who's "panoply of equipment" you're referencing. If it's Dmailer's, his signal path is quite straight-forward and neutral. You can view it here:
http://www.galibierdesign.com/systems_larry_keatts.html
Yes, there are better MC step-ups out there, and Dave Slagle's (Intact Audio) is one of them. One thing at a time ...
Maybe you're referring to someone else's panoply?
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
I stepped in some panoply once. Couldn't get the stuff of with turpentine! Just had to wait until it wore off. |
Hey Guys......I posted to this thread back in June '05
& put in my order for a Schroder 2 arm back in aug. '05
I JUST recieved it about a week ago (Nov '06)
over a year wait.
I am going to build a cocobolo armboard & use a Teres VTA
adjuster with it since it does not have adjustable VTA like the Schroder Referance has.
The plinth is 2" acrylic. I am not sure if I should glue
the armboard to cut down on resonance or just screw it down
with some brass screws.
Cartridge is a music maker III
this Arm is obviously less expensive & has less adjustments
as the Reference arm, But it is very simple & elegant looking & I expect to be delighted at it's sound when I get
it up & running! |
I don't think you want to glue the armboard down, if that is what you meant. Part of the design of this style is that you can move the armboard to make cartridge alignment much, much easier. |
Not only that (Dan-ed's comments), but adding any sort of bonding agent may interrupt energy transmission.
Think of everything as a material - even a thin bonding layer.
Better to wank down on some bolts to join the two layers together. This, at least is reverseable.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
