OK. Here's a vote for the Pickering XSVs. I've got both a 3000 and a 5000. Stanton 981LZS is my fave of the Pickering/Stanton group.
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I found the Sound Smith CL rebuild for the Virtuoso wood to be vastly superior to the stock version. Ive had both in my system for extended listening and never found the original aluminum cantilever romantic sounding. The retip retains the CA house sound but with greater detail and tighter bass. This is of course in my system, Im sure differences heard reflect phono pre etc. Ive owned several of the previously mentioned MM's and would say the SS virtuoso is my favorite so far although I still prefer a couple of my MC's overall. |
Greedy no way! "greed is good" to some extent? Irrational, maybe we all are all in some way a little bit of that and a lot of OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). Agreed, two years is too long. I know this waaaay off topic however I'm curious Nandric as to your source for a stylus for the 881S as it is my current "house" cartridge and I am on the brink of placing an order with LP Gear for their version of the shibata for this unit. It saddens me at $ 167.00, I just know it just won't be the same but hey it's allegedly in stock, new, a japanese shibata and sources for the real deal STANTON stylus dried up many moons ago! |
Hi Tubed1, You are right. 'just half of the fun' is, alas, not a 'suficient condition' to stay away from the carts for which any resonable chance to get the (original) stylus is so tiny. I am waiting for the stylus for my AKG P 8 ES and Stanton 881S longer than two years. Are we too greedy perheps? Or, simply put, irrational? Regards, |
Yes, Acman3 yet one must approach the quest for ancient MM/MI with a caveat as locating the cartridge is just half of the fun. In some instances the stylus may be unobtainium and this brings us to perhaps the start of a new thread with a much needed list of current present day desireable MM/MI that are currently available, yet destined to become survivors and give the Pied Piper high priced LOMC a run for their money right of off the end of the abyss. |
I was thinking just the same thing the other day a comprehensive list of survivors MC/MI cartridges. Here is my contribution far be it from the end all: ATML 170/180 Grado The Amber Tribute Grado TLZ Grace Ruby Garrot P7 Nagaoka MP 50 Super B&O MMC2 & MMC20CL AKG P8ES Super Nova Audio Technica AT 15SA w/an AT 20SS stylus Reson Reca Astatic MF-100 Stanton 881S Stanton 981 STANTON 991EE Pro Supex MF-100 Acutex 310 Acutex 320 Acutex 420 Astatic MF-200 ADC Astrian Microacoustics MA630/830 Empire 750 LTD & 600 LAC Empire 1000 ZE/X Sonus Dimensions 5 Adante P-76 |
Allow me to chime in and share my experience with the ruby retip of the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood. A few years ago, I purchased a used Clearaudio Emotion turntable with Virtuoso Wood here on Audiogon. Unfortunately, it arrived with a bent cantilever. I too was curious about the ruby cantilever option while researching my options for a rebuild. I chose to give it a try. After a few months of waiting (they are very busy at Soundsmith and the queue was fairly backed up), I received my Virtuoso with new ruby cantilever and line contact stylus. Initially I was very impressed with the increase in detail. However, over time, I found the sound to be a bit strident. I attempted several times to resolve this by changing alignment and lowering the raking angle, but to no avail. In the end, I chose to drop back to the standard aluminum cantilever with elliptical stylus. Peter from Soundsmith was very accommodating and understanding of my situation. Upon remounting the new rebuild, I immediately heard the original romantic sound of the Viruoso Wood. It's hard for me to say if Peter's rebuild sounded better than stock because it had been so long since I first heard it. What I can say though, is to be careful when chosing the ruby cantilever option. It may work well with some carts, but I did not like the sound it made when attached to the Virtuoso. |
Dear Professor, 'outrageous Balkan exaggerarion'? If you mean the watermelon then you missed my intention. This was an 'exit strategy statement' based on Von Clausewitz . Ie that our Balkan conviction regarding the 'bigger is better' issue apply only to the vegetables, fruit and carts. To me however some other (very) big mysteries are more interesting. The fact that no Chinese wants a daughter and the fact that no American (on ebay) want to sell abrod. While I , despite my academic education, am not able to write all the numbers needed as a symbolic representation of American foreign debts I am very disappointed about such a conduct because I missed a.o. 4 Acutex carts this way. Regards, |
Regards, Frogman: IMHO, nice catch. I believe you'll find the 412 has a better grip on the bass than does the very nice Azden YM-P50VL. Mids will be presented with good clarity and the HF's detailed without being worrysome. BTW Frogman, outcome dependent, either this enthusiast paid too much or another not enough, but recently I was fortunate(?) enough to obtain from your referenced vendor a NOS LPM 415STR. Out of consideration for our thread-host, in a week or two and with a better acquaintance with these carts it might perhaps be appropriate if we continue the discussion of Acutex taxonomy over on Raul's epic thread? In a sideways recognition of certian comments made above, Nikola would you bring along more of your outrageous Balkan exaggeration and Thuchan, of course, your delicious double entendres? And Henry, you are suspected of hyperbole-- I looked several times and there's no evidence of another room behind my speakers. Apologies, Herr Tonarm. You've been very patient. Peace, |
I just ordered one of these: CARTRIDGE-AND-STYLUS-ORIGINAL-PACKAGING-/180733638051? pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a149075a3#ht_500wt_922>http://ww w.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ACUTEX-412-STR-CARTRIDGE-AND-STYLUS- ORIGINAL-PACKAGING-/180733638051? pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a149075a3#ht_500wt_922 I don't expect it to qualify for the "Greatest" designation, but if my Azden is any indication, it should be pretty good given their shared origin. I still don't have a handle on how the 4xx series compared to the 3xx series in the Acutex hierarchy. Thoughts? |
Dear Professor, There are some 'things' which go togehter. The Balkan humour is not without implicit premises. On the Balkans we all are convinced that bigger is better. I always buy there watermelons of at least 6kgr...for myself that is. Never thought that this 'national nature' will be used against me. There are those who think that showing some vulnerability is a good thing. But one should be very careful with those who quote sun-tzu. Regards, |
I also second Daniel's appreciation of the Professor's contributions to this thread. I have found his encyclopedic mind....and faultless ears.....to be a guiding light for me in this honorable quest for analogue perfection :^) His recommendation of any cartridge should never go uninvestigated and the recent mention of the Acutex LPM 310/312/315/320 is a case in point. From the depths of Kentucky.......a well packed parcel arrived chez moi containing said mentioned Acutex :^) A difficult run-in period (especially on the 315) saw dividends with the 312 eventually singing on the TT-101 turntable. Mounted on my 'go-to' Yamamoto Ebony headshell in my 'go-to' multiple-adjustable MA-505S tonearm........the Acutex LPM 312 enveloped my room (and within it my ears) with a sound so lush and exciting....it is probably banned in certain states of the southern USA? That it must be 'coloured' goes without saying :^) If we emphasise the lower registers so that they 'hit' the guts whilst retaining a tunefulness and tightness more akin to the 'real thing' than any other cartridge I have heard...........we must have a 'coloured' sound? If....at the same time......the midrange stuns with a realism and three-dimensionality almost unimaginable from a cartridge costing somewhat less than $10,000.......we must have a 'coloured' sound? Add a high-frequency performance which shimmers and tingles and vibrates and shines without a hint of harshness or distortion and we must have a 'coloured sound'? Throw in a soundstage that reaches forward and swallows you whilst showing you a room you never had behind your speakers and we must have a 'coloured sound'? But can it really be 'coloured' when ALL these attributes are combined at the same time? Can we really be suspicious that one cartridge can be so revealing compared to others when we see that one turntable can be? Why are we surprised that one component can get it right whilst most others can miss the mark so badly? OK.....so I'm drunk! But as well as being intoxicated on a fine blend of Scotch.....I am also intoxicated on a sound conjured by a small metal and plastic blob sitting on the end of my tonearm. Will I persist with the recalcitrant LPM 315? You bet I will......why?.......because the Professor tells me to :^) |
Dear Timeltel, having followed the recommendation going for a TK10ML I do not regret my efforts, also organizing a new styli. I do know that Halcro is not the happiest man when he looks on his unit but in my case it makes me really excited picking it out of my collection and running it in a TK9LC body with a FR-66s. best @ fun only |
Dear Timeltel, unfortunately Sun-Tzu ( or Sun-Zi ) died about 1 century before - so he couldn't watch Hannibal's tactics on august 2nd, 216 b.c., which turned the fury of the attack against the attacker ..... but he is certainly in accordance with Miyamoto Musashi. Sorry - off topic. I find your descriptions and in-deep analysis of the MMs very valuable. This is exactly what I was looking for. Cheers, D. |
Regards, Nandric: It gets even worse. In 1980, Acutex offered seven carts with (other than color) identical apperance. There were the LPM's (four models) and also the "Standard Series" M206-11 (white grip, conical), the M207-11 (grey, .3 x .7 ellipt.) and the M210-11, (orange, .3 x 7 ellipt., but keep in mind this was not the orange .3 x .7 LPM 310e "Best Ellipt.") These are not to be confused with the big block M3xx carts. It's all so simple--- As to your bigger is better premise? Really, Nikola. As Sun-Tzu might have said: It's not the size of the army but rather the fury of the attack that counts ;^). This is (informally) reflected in that most of the carts mentioned above are relatively low inductance/output impedance designs and of less than 3.6mV output. Mostly. Another needing mention is the Signet TK10ML, 2.2mV and the cart that introduced the ML stylus. There are those who hold the TK10 in high esteem. Peace, |
Dear Professor, thanks for your kindness and technical explanation. May I deduce that the actual situation is/was even more complex than I assumed ? Ie three versions with nearly the same nomenclature? Those, as you call them 'big blocks', are still to find on the German ebay. I must confess that I thought that those are better because they are much bigger...What a pity that Acutex needed to quit in 1992. Regards, |
Regards, Nandric: AFAIK, with the M3xx (square) carts, output impedance is 2700 Ohm instead of the 610 Ohm with the LPM 3xx carts, or the LPM 4xx carts with 710 Ohm output impedance. IIRC, the "M"'s are also higher output, 4.0mv compared to the LPM's 3.5mv. I've no exposure to the "big block" Acutex's but under the circumstances would expect the mids to be brighter/more forward & would anticipate cap. requirements to be in the 300-400pF range. It's possible the diamond on the LPM's are of better (Ogura) quality, Acutex stressed the quality of LPM styli. Just a guess. Or three. The terminal 4xx series (available for only several years as Acutex dropped cartridges from their catalog in 1992) differ in apperance by their translucent grips, specific grip fitment and mechanically by a redesign of the neutral or negative third armature. This was modified from a sleeve on the cantilever to a lighter tab afixed to the base of the cantilever. There is a very slight trade-off in improved clarity (reduced cantilever mass?) for the very pleasing presence heard with the LPM 300's. One must listen closely to hear any difference. BTW, out of curiousity did a search of VE's cart database, there's a pantheon of well regarded carts with Ti. cantilevers. The majority wore LC, Shibata, VDH1/2 or ML styli. Peace, |
Dear Professor, The nomenclature of many MM brands is not easy to understand much less to remember. The LPM 320;315;312 we refered to as 'long nose' in order to distinguish them from the earlier models with the same numbers but different looks. I noticed that the 'long nose' got more than the 'nose lenght' of advantage in valuation. I owned the earlier 315 and 312 but alas without original styli and,speaking about styli and the nomenclature I bought 3 wrong styli for them. Because of this 'radical' difference in valuation I assume that the 'long nose' contains some important innovations in comparison ? Would you care to explain? With pupil's regards, |
Dear Nikola, I didn't want to ask any specific person about this - I wanted to get the information/recommendation as eclectic as possible. There was no reason to direct the question to someone in specific. Furthermore - I'd rather intended to direct certain contributions away from the "Greatest MCs ever"-thread. Certainly no intentions to hi-jack any posts from Raul's "who needs MM"-thread - and I can't see any danger for this either, as that thread long developed in certain directions. I do see my question above going to a different direction anyway. So far I am still certainly not in the fan-group for MMs and MIs. I had many encounters with them and I liked quite a few. But I draw a strict line between "I like it" and "I can live with it". There is a wide gap between that camps. I am very interested in the technical aspects of moving magnet cartridges - especially so, as I believe that the topic isn't fully explored yet. When power restriction was an important point in PA audio, speaker development saw quantum leaps. When the "power issue" was solved in the late 1960s speaker development concentrated on reducing magnet/frame weight. I see a similar analogy in MM design history. There is no need/market call today for top-flight (= high priced) MMs - and there isn't since a long time. Aside from Grado and Decca/London the high-price department is LOMC only. Would really like to see a few gifted designers to return to an old "field" and trying to bring in an all new harvest of previously unknown quality from MM. I am sure, that the very best possible MM hasn't been designed yet. Cheers, D. |
Dear Daniel, I understand that you wanted to 'cut -away' some reading in the MM thread and invented your own way out. I am aware of your lack of spare time. But you could ask me to ask Raul this same question. Assuming of course that Raul has no vendetta with me? Besides he as a curious person with his learning curve should be interested to know more about some 'mutant' with possible some added brain capacity. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, dear Timetel, actually I wanted to have this thread as "open" as possible. Many of the best MM and MI cartridges are long discontinued and their dampers (guess we all noticed, that "break-in" time of MMs is (if any...) much less than witlh most MCs) were not built to last for ever. I am curious what MM cartridges might turn up here and maybe get to learn a MM which I have missed so far. I follow a simple procedure when examinating a cartridge (in fact - this is my procedure in most any audio component I come along and which catches my attention) - I try to get as many technical information about it's design as possible to get an idea what are it's requirements, what are it's inidvidual design strength, what may be a technical/mechanical/dimensional foundation for a certain sound. As said earlier - I am musing since a long time about having a MM cartridge manufactured to my specifications. I for one hope to get new inspiration from a few of the contenders mentioned by others here. BTW - yes, I have found 2 LOMCs in my long journey, which I can (and most likely will ...) live with happily ever after (within a certain "team" of tonearm/SUT). I yet have to find a MM cartridge I can include in that elusive small party. So forme this is really a valuable source and I perksonally especially welcome posts like Timetel's which are accompanied by technical parameters. Cheers, D. |
Halcro, Yes you are right of course for the most part and I continue pursuing my education through Audiogon forums and with advice from seasoned audiophiles like your self and others here. However, I can see plainly by looking at serious systems here on A'gon and high end magazines that low output MC's dominate in most of the big analog front ends (at least that is the way it looks to me). There must be good reason for this, no? In any event, here is a brief list of some analog I have recently had the chance to hear at a buddies house and my brief thoughts about the mm carts I heard during this time. Rega P3-24 table Rega RB301 arm and OL Silver arms Dynavector phono preamp (cannot remember the model) Carts- Ortofon 2M Black Grado Sonata 1 Grado Platinum Shure VST 15 III (I think?) Good sound from the above but not sounding nearly as dynamic and punchy as presentation in comparison to the same setup using the mc carts below- Dynavector 10x5 (HO MC) Dynavector 17D3 Audioquest 7000 (? I think that was the one) Van Den Hul Frog (I believe that was the model, a couple years older than the others if memory serves) Please keep in mind I do not have the extensive knowledge of you and others here, I am just reporting my impressions of what I heard during these listening sessions. Also, sorry everyone for not making this a new thread, that proabably would have more appropriate. |
Jeremy, Anyone care to recommend MM and MI cartridges which have great dynamics/attack (like a MC) with detail and tonality to boot? From what I gather, this is something only really good MC do well but thought there might be exceptions.It is not my experience that MCs possess any of those advantages over MMs. I realise that you are quoting an oft- repeated mantra by reviewers and others but I would really like actual examples to be submitted for peer review? :^) |
Hi Fleib, The Decca London is the only cartridge on my list which have neither owned nor heard.......and it's position at the top is certainly not meant to indicate any ranking. The London had already achieved near legendary status in the late 70s with George Hadcock purportedly having designed his eponymous GH-228 unipivot arm specifically for it? Together with the myth that no two samples sounded the same and a near continuous 40 year production history......it deserves to be on the list. I agree with Timeltel that no list would be complete without the venerable Shure V15/III although again, I've neither heard nor owned. |
Anyone care to recommend MM and MI cartridges which have great dynamics/attack (like a MC) with detail and tonality to boot? From what I gather, this is something only really good MC do well but thought there might be exceptions. Someone mentioned to me Grado offers .5mv low output MI carts, and they can do dynamics like moving coils along with the hallmark wood body Grado vocals and tonality. Not sure if this is true though or folklore. Maybe there are other mm that can pull off killer dynamics with normal mm output, though with all those extra windings I dont understand how its possible? |
Regards, Nandric: One purpose such reports serve is to reintroduce cartridges some (such as me) might consider of exceptional design. Acutex LPM 320-111 STR: Freq. resp./20-20k +- .75 dB. Broadband resp. 20-45k Hz. IM distortion 1.2%. Channel bal. 33dB @ 1k Hz and 29dB @ 10k. Eff. tip mass 0.5mg. Statistics from the 1980 Acutex catalog. Introduced in 1979, this is a tri-pole induced magnet system in which exists a single strong magnet housed in the body. Just ahead of the pivot block there are two armatures fixed to the cantilever in a "V" configuration, a third is a sleeve along the plane of the cantilever shaft. This third armature serves as a neutral to cancel any spurious crosstalk between channels, reenforces the base of the titanium cantilever and also aids in damping unwanted cantilever resonance. The stylus is a tri-radial modified Shibata obtained from Ogura Jewel Ind. The diamond itself is rectangular with it's widest dimension oriented 90* to the axis of the cantilever and is a nom. 40% of the mass of a typical square shank nude stylus. It should be pointed out that the 1.2% measured distortion is within usual recording parameters. Cartridges in the series include the 310e (elliptical), the 312STR (bonded tri-radial), the 315STR (nude tri-radial) and the reduced mass, nude mount and highly polished "Vital" 320STR. The 320 is tonally accurate. A noticably neutral voice with a fast rise time and no audible overshoot is the first impression. Bass is well defined and decay/sustain is excellent, the cartridge is a confident and accurate performer. The 315STR with it's square shank stylus produces a prodigious bass foundation while still manageing to avoid evidence of excessive bloat or bloom. A sense of presence or immediacy is the hallmark of the LPM 3xx series but the 315 in particular offers a quality of presence I've not heard with any other pickup. The bonded and slightly less well polished stylus on the 312STR makes it an entertaining performer. Initial attack is slightly rounded but remains defined well enough so as to not seem confused in demanding passages. I firmly believe that one, having listened to the 320-111 STR, would be pleased to add it to their complement of cartridges. IMHO & yada-yada. Any other questions, Nikola my good friend? Peace, |
HI Raul' +++"really influenced the audio world'+++ This is not what I understand, was asked at the opening of this tread. +++"were able to hold their sonic standard against all fashions"+++ He asked for cartridges that could perform up to todays standards. Holding sonic standard is not the same as really influenced the audio world? . |
I am not able to understand the 'sense' of such list of carts. One can describe the 'çonditions' or criteria which some carts need to satisfy in order to be on whatever list but the 'initial conditions' presuppose that the most of us are familiar with the most of the carts. But the most people I know are familiar with, say, two or three carts. So this is than some weird contest between persons who own or owned an considerable amount of carts. I do not belong to those but even so I can add to the list of Halcro the Stanton 881 S and AKG P 8ES 'Super Nova' because I discovered those carts, say, by accident. From his list I know Empire 1000 ZE/X and Signet TK 5 and non of the other. So I am obviously not in the position to judge about the other on his list. Then I assume that Raul and Herr Professor own more MM carts than Halcro so Halcro is not in the position to judge about carts which they own but he does not. But if this is, say, the general situation what is then the sense of such a list? Regards, |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " It is asking for a 'list' of 'classic' MM/MI cartridges which have influenced the audio world and have 'stood the test of time. " +++++ do you really/honest think that the AT, Signet, FR-5E, Empire 1000 or the Nagaoka ( at least those models ) really influenced the audio world? how? or it is because: +++++ " It is not solely what you may like? " +++++ Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Mosin: IMHO the 95SA version well matches tonearm and the right phono stage certainly it is not a " classic " one but a good one. Btw, I don't know about the Aurum but the Virtuoso even that " came " from the 95 ceratinly is not the 95, the electric cartridge specs are way different and Clearaudio made the " fine tunning ": my sample has a better stylus than the stock one and is just great. I will test it with a shibata or line contact stylus because the Virtuoso can shows even better performance if we give it better " weapons ". Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Mosin: It is " weird " that with 100+ MM/MI cartridges you choosed those ones- I own the three TRX models and I can't remember which one but one of them came with titanium cantilever just like the 205 you name it: pure coincidence?. The 205 " family " is " orilific " that model I think came from the 70's, the one I own is the 205MK4 ( boron cantilever. ) and I have to say is very good performer as yours. |
Hi Mosin, **Mentioned was the AT-95. this happens to be the same cartridge as the Linn K5 or the Clearaudio Aurum Beta S. I own all these incarnations, and I assure you that they are really nothing to write home about. They not bad, mind you, but they fall way short of mind blowing. I'll probably never mount them on a tonearm again.** What those cartridges share is the same housing and stylus plug. The generators are all different. The K5 has output of 4.5mV, the others are 3.6mV. The 95E has 2.8K impedance as opposed to 660 ohms for the CA. What is similar is the stylus/cantilever, cu, and obviously your listening conclusions. I suspect that if you put a different stylus assembly on the Aurum Beta S, you could equal or exceed the performance of a Virtuoso. The generators seem to be identical. Regards, |
Agree with Halcro. I could live with the Signet TK7SU forever. With the right arm and phono preamp, it's a monster performer. Interestingly enough, it performs much better in one of my less expensive tonearms (Hadcock 242) when compared to much more expensive tonearms (Triplanar and Dynavector 507 MkII.). Given the Signet is a mid 1970's model, perhaps this is not surprising as the Hadcock is a much older design than the others. YMMV Dealer disclaimer |
Dear D, Do you mean.......be 'faithful' to a cartridge for the rest of our lives to the exclusion of all others? This was not a condition of the great MC cartridges and I don't think it's in the nature of a true audiophile to be 'monogamous'? Let me just say that I could happily live with only one of the MM cartridges on my list than any single MC cartridge I have yet heard. |
