I certainly agree that there is a good number of very good performing MM and MI cartridges out there.
What I am missing however are a few MM/ MI cartridges which do display greatness.
Is there any MM cartridge (or MI) out there were you would say:
"that's it ! I could live with this one forever - no need for any other cartridge no more."
If there is any such thing out there which didn't trigger my attention so far, I would honestly like to know.
Me myself musing since a long time about having a MM cartridge made to my specifications.
As I for one still believe that the possibilities of this design haven't been fully explored yet. |
To accompany my list.....I think I need to describe the state of high-end audio in Britain and Australia in the late 70s and early 80s.
Here in Australia, Britain was the 'heart' of the 'renaissance' in high-end audio.
The States were considered 'crude' and unsophisticated with no credible audio press....hence the need for 'underground' magazines like The Absolute Sound and Stereophile although we never saw or heard of Stereophile till much further into the 80s.
Ampzilla and Son of Ampzilla were about all we heard of America and a little later......Audio Research and Conrad Johnson.
There was a 'known' British sound to speakers....and an American 'sound' to speakers.......and the American was very much derided.
The British mainstream audio press (Hi-Fi Answers and What Hi-Fi) provided unbridled criticism and intelligent discussion into all things high-end whilst the names.....Linn, Naim, Rega, Wharfdale, Celestion, Gale, Kef, Quad, Mitchell etc held sway with all audiophiles and through their connections with cartridge and arm manufacturers in Japan.......the Japanese audio industry was interwoven with the high-end British.
Consequently......cartridges (most made in Japan) were very prominent in the British press whereas I can recall little discussion of those when we eventually were able to get our hands on The Absolute Sound issues.
With this history in mind, my list of Classic MM cartridges would be:-
Decca London
Nagaoka MP11
Stanton 681EEE
Garrott P77
AT 155LC
Signet TK-3 series
Signet TK-5 series
Signet TK-7 series
Empire 1000ZE/X
Empire 4000D/III
FR-5E
Technics EPC-100 |
Dear Halcro, no other agenda here as to separate the two threads indeed.
This is about the MM and MIs - Syntax' is about the classic MCs.
Period.
And - yes, there were a few MM and even 2 MI cartridges which did indeed influence me in my journey and which I "liked".
I left this thread "unrestricted" in the way that I did not start with a list (even if I would have a few contenders in mind) - I just want this list to develop itself free and following the minds of the contributors |
I don't think anyone has really understood the question posted here?
It is asking for a 'list' of 'classic' MM/MI cartridges which have influenced the audio world and have 'stood the test of time'.
Please read the thread on 'Great MC cartridges' started by Syntax for a definition of 'Classic'.
It is not solely what you may like?.....and certainly does not encompass modern designs like the Clearaudios. |
Dear D,
It surprises me that you start a thread about MM/MI cartridges when I can't remember a single MM cartridge that you have mentioned in the past or any that you claim to have influenced you?
Is there an agenda to you question? :^)
Regards
Henry |
Mentioned was the AT-95. this happens to be the same cartridge as the Linn K5 or the Clearaudio Aurum Beta S. I own all these incarnations, and I assure you that they are really nothing to write home about. They not bad, mind you, but they fall way short of mind blowing. I'll probably never mount them on a tonearm again.
Also, I failed to say in my previous post that the TRX3 was an ADC offering that was designed by the same man who designs the ZYX cartridges. If you ever happen to see one, grab it. |
I'd be very interested in hearing from someone who has a Virtuoso - SS tip w/ruby. I read somewhere that it's remarkable. That's not far fetched. The Maestro has the same generator and it's a boron/micro. Unlike a MC, it would be reversible. You could even swap styli and compare.
Regards, |
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Hi Raul,
+++++"that's what I found out 4-5 years ago and I never felt " depressing " but excited for the new " discover " and I can tell you that till today that kind of excitement still there"++++.
If I put a average price (found on Audiogon or e/bay), of lets say $150 for any of the past top teir cartridges we talk about, I could have purchased and been listening to 23 of them instead of just the 1 Ruby III. I doubt if either you or I could wear out 23 top teir cartridges in whats remaining of our lives. I could wear out the Ruby in a couple of years. That's the depressing part. And yes, I'm thrilled that we can still find the old gems and have NOS stylus suplies from people like LP gear, W. Thacker, etc. |
Bifwynne,
I agree with Rauliruegas. The SS retip did improve what was already an excellent cartridge. We are talking hear the SS basic, $150 retip. Yes, there is 2 other options from SS for additional charges, but it requires the cantiliver to be change to gem stone instead of alum. Personelly, I would be afraid it would no longer sound like a Virtuoso wood. You might like it better, you might not? |
Dear Griffithds: ++++ " It's depressing to know that I currently own a $3500 MC (Benz Micro Ruby III), that can only sightly better a couple of the cartridges that I mentioned. I hav other MC's that can't beat ANY of them! " +++++
that's what I found out 4-5 years ago and I never felt " depressing " but excited for the new " discover " and I can tell you that till today that kind of excitement still there. I can tell you that my MM/MI discovery was when I already invested over 100K only in LOMC cartridges. Now, I have two alternatives for my LPs, time to time I listen my LOMC ones and I borrow/ed latest LOMC cartridges from my friends.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I have maybe a hundred different ones, and two stand out. One is the Technics 205C-IIX. It is a moving magnet type. The other is the TRX3, a moving iron type. Both stand tall when compared with virtually any moving coil I have ever heard, except the Lyra Olympus. That one is in a class of its own. |
Dear Bifwynne: IMHO yes. Mine coming from there but if you want the Virtuoso " glory " don't change the cantilever build material: aluminum.
Now, if you already own the Virtuoso and want to hear it again but with some improvement then you have other option: go to LPGear and buy a stylus replacement for the Audio Technica AT95-SA :
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATN95SA.html
the Virtuoso is build by Audio technica and according to experts here on Agon ( Fleib and others. ) the used model was the AT-95 ( while with differences. ) and you can change your Virtuoso stylus for the AT and test it. I own the AT-95SA ( Shibata stylus shape against elliptical in the Virtuoso. ) and it is very good performer if not at the same Virtuoso level but the Shibata will help the Virtuoso ( this came with aluminum cantilever too. ).
This one could help you too:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGATN95VL.html
If you decide to try it then we in the MM/MI long thread will appreciate that you share your experiences about with us, either: through AT options or SS re-tip.
Thank you in advance.
Btw, here you can read a Virtuoso review:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1313624221&&&/Clearaudio-Virtuoso-Wood-Cartridge-
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Raul. |
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Griff..., Thanks -- been there and done that. I've owned the CA Virtuoso and Maestro. The Virtuoso is very very good, BUT the Maestro at MSRP of $1250 is noticeably better -- if you can believe it. I recall one reviewer said the Maestro was the best MM on the market today. The open question was whether it was worth spending twice as much on the Maestro as the Ortofon 2M Black???
Well . . . I've owned them all. I originally mounted the Virtuoso and Maestro on my rebuilt Thorens TD 160. I thought the Virtuoso and Maestro sounded just great. I decided to take the plunge into "serious" vinyl and sold the Thorens and bought a VPI Classic. The Classic is built like a tank. Problem is the da*n JMW uni-pivot is a PITA. None of the cartridges I mention above were compatible with the JMW arm, possibly because the JMW arm uses an unstabilized uni-pivot architecture.
I moved on to the Sound Smith VPI Zephyr which works well with the Classic/JMW set up.
This post is obviously about vintage MM and MI carties that withstood the test of time. Notwithstanding my troubles with the Classic/JMW set up, I surmise that the CA Virtuoso and Maestro, and Ortofon 2M Black will join the list of venerable cartridges too, if they haven't already done so.
Griff..., do you think the Virtusos with SS retip sounds better than a stock Virtuoso out of the box?? |
Bifwynne,
None mentioned are in production today. All can be found on this site or e/bay, either used or NOS. If you want to know of a MM that is currently being manufacture today and is as good as or better than any of the ones mentioned, then get yourself a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood. New, around $1000. Used, less than half that. I bought my 3rd Virtuoso used with a new Sound Smith retip for $400 last month. This cartridge will take a back seat to NO one. Just amazing! |
Mofo and Griff...., are most (all?) of the carties you listed still being made today?? If so, how much do they generally cost?? Griff... mentioned prices ranging from $50 to $300. I assume that's used. |
There is a lot of them. The Audio Technica AT 15sa or 20ss. The Azden YM-P50Vl. The Ortofon M20fl. The Signet TK7 or 10 series. The Empire 2000E/4000D series. The Astatic MF-100. The Garrott Bros. P77. The Technics EPC 100CM MK4. The previously mentioned Graces. I could go on and on. All that I have mentioned would give any, and I do mean any MC a run for the money, beating most of them. The cartridges that I have mentioned can be found hear on this site for $50 to $300. It's depressing to know that I currently own a $3500 MC (Benz Micro Ruby III), that can only sightly better a couple of the cartridges that I mentioned. I hav other MC's that can't beat ANY of them! |
My pick would be the Grace F9E. |
