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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
59 responses Add your response
sibelius
256 posts
 
My DAC rules:

1) Almost all DAC's have to choose between a few main chipsets. Right now, Wolfson and Sabre tend to be two of the more popular ones. Find out if you tend to prefer one particular chipset over another.

2) Don't spend megabucks on DAC's. We are talking about technology that churns quickly. I view my DAC like I view my laptop.

3) Try and find a DAC that is flexible regarding tweaking.

I bought the EE Minimax Plus because I prefer the Sabre chip to the Wolfson, the price is affordable ($1100) and the EE DAC allows a good deal of tweaking (SS or tube mode, easy Opamp changes). I fully expect that I will probably purchase a new DAC in a 2-3 year time period.
nonoise's avatar
nonoise
10,838 posts
 
Thank you Rob for pulling back the curtain.

I like my Centrance enough to not go on that never ending quest.

All the best,
Nonoise
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Elizabeth....

The problem is that many people write such comments in the same manner as they do any other review.

Example: I was told that the Merlins would create imaging and tonal accuracy far beyond what my excellent Magnepan 1.6 pair could manage. And those people were right. In fact they may have understated the merits of the Merlins.

But then I read peoples comments about the Rega DAC or EE Minimax and see things like "nothing comes close." It's laughable and just not true. The truth is they are ALL very close. Another friend of mine told me his new Oppo 95 "blew away the older modded 83." I went for a listen and the term "blew away" is just not applicable. I'd go with "small but nice improvement."

Even if someone thinks their DAC blows away the others it won't apply to your system most of the time. The real deal is that we've been blown away by the sameness of these units. I also have real doubts that people ever compare these units in their own systems. A few might, most don't. I sure don't! I have a friend who does, though he's finished worrying about DACs.

Cheers

Rob
Post removed 
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Foster....here's another rub:

The longer you live with a DAC the more it settles in. I'm not talking about break-in. I'm talking about our ears and tastes settling in with a new addition to a system. After the W4S 2 was broken in we still weren't in love with it. But after more time went by we found it better than our first and second impressions. The unit had not changed. We did.

The more I listen to the Rega DAC the more I like it. I bet if I had the EE or ARC living in my system for a while I'd also start to acclimate and appreciate the strengths as much or more.

So when folks gave me reviews and impressions of the Merlin speakers, I was happy to find them very in line with my own listening experience. The same can be said for the Manley tube amp. People were really on target, as they were with speaker wire and even the two power cords I tried.
But I've found almost universal "fail" when it comes to users and reviewers giving their two cents on DACs. No matter who it is I believe that such reviews must be taken with a LARGE grain of salt, unless your system is a very close match for the person writing the review. The DACs we listened to were tried on two systems and even that leaves a huge margin for error in our assessments.

If you kept the EE, try it with tube removed! This is it's most transparent configuration, at least so far as we could hear. The Centrance is truly terrific, but needed a long break-in before it gave it's best. Your findings may be completely different and just as valid!

Robert B
NY
gtortorella
17 posts
 
I, too, thank you for your post. I have yet to accept the DAC route. In my view, why have redundant components? Why have a DAC stage sitting idle in one's player? A transport/DAC setup would seem to make sense. However, a properly designed player--with a good (non-op-amp) output stage--would seem to provide the best, most straightforward solution for a digital source. Too bad these players are $3,500 and up (that is, if the "entry-level" Ayre did not go up in price this year).
hifiharv
351 posts
 
This surprises me because we have to remember that a DAC also contains a "linestage" at the output that can make or break the sound. This is usually where the tubes are in the circuit of a tubed DAC. Sometimes it is as simple as a no gain cap and resistor like in a modified Sony Playstation. Sometimes a more elaborate gain producing circuit. You may have compared a bunch of DACs that all sound good or similar, but, I'm sure you could come up with some others you don't like as much.
audiooracle
387 posts
 

Thanks for the amusing post! First of all it depends on the resolution of the system and the acuity of your ears!

First all Vandersteen loudspeakers have recessed treble and are not as highly resolving as other high performance loudspeakers, I am not saying they are bad speakers, however, they are voiced on the soft and laid back side.

In my shop I can do similar comparisons and some of the differences are monumental:

I have compared many dacs from Bryston, Benchmark, Cary, M2 Tech, Hegel, Esoteric, AMR, Meitner, Naim, Rega,Cambridge Audio, and they all sound quite different! They all differ in terms of resolution, sound stage width and depth, bass definition and impact, and warmth or lack of warmth in the midrange.

What I will agree with you is that many of the dac's priced in the $1,000.00 or so range do sound similar, however, that is not an earth shattering concept, many integrated amplifiers in the same price range offer similar performance and differ in the above criteria as well.

Dudes buy a box of Q Tips, and pay me a visit I can demonstrate to you that your findings are only accurate in your limited set of circumstances: your system setup and your ears, extrapolating your particular biases and expectations to the rest of an industry is fallacious.

Do you think the market would bear so many different dacs at so many different price points if they all sounded the same? Do you also think that everyone else here is delusional when they post that they switched from brand x dac to brand y and heard a huge improvement?

Hey what do I know I have been doing this as a profession for 25 years.

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foster_9
1,638 posts
 
Thanks for your post. Appreciate the perspective it lends. I had the Centrance, and the EE Minimax Plus. I returned one and sold the other. Briefly had the Wyred DAC 2. I'm on the long list of folks waiting for an Audiolab MDAC. I do wonder how it would compare to the dacs you mention.
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