Foster....here's another rub:
The longer you live with a DAC the more it settles in. I'm not talking about break-in. I'm talking about our ears and tastes settling in with a new addition to a system. After the W4S 2 was broken in we still weren't in love with it. But after more time went by we found it better than our first and second impressions. The unit had not changed. We did.
The more I listen to the Rega DAC the more I like it. I bet if I had the EE or ARC living in my system for a while I'd also start to acclimate and appreciate the strengths as much or more.
So when folks gave me reviews and impressions of the Merlin speakers, I was happy to find them very in line with my own listening experience. The same can be said for the Manley tube amp. People were really on target, as they were with speaker wire and even the two power cords I tried.
But I've found almost universal "fail" when it comes to users and reviewers giving their two cents on DACs. No matter who it is I believe that such reviews must be taken with a LARGE grain of salt, unless your system is a very close match for the person writing the review. The DACs we listened to were tried on two systems and even that leaves a huge margin for error in our assessments.
If you kept the EE, try it with tube removed! This is it's most transparent configuration, at least so far as we could hear. The Centrance is truly terrific, but needed a long break-in before it gave it's best. Your findings may be completely different and just as valid!
Robert B
NY |
Elizabeth....
The problem is that many people write such comments in the same manner as they do any other review.
Example: I was told that the Merlins would create imaging and tonal accuracy far beyond what my excellent Magnepan 1.6 pair could manage. And those people were right. In fact they may have understated the merits of the Merlins.
But then I read peoples comments about the Rega DAC or EE Minimax and see things like "nothing comes close." It's laughable and just not true. The truth is they are ALL very close. Another friend of mine told me his new Oppo 95 "blew away the older modded 83." I went for a listen and the term "blew away" is just not applicable. I'd go with "small but nice improvement."
Even if someone thinks their DAC blows away the others it won't apply to your system most of the time. The real deal is that we've been blown away by the sameness of these units. I also have real doubts that people ever compare these units in their own systems. A few might, most don't. I sure don't! I have a friend who does, though he's finished worrying about DACs.
Cheers
Rob |
To the fellow who has the dealership....you're the first person I've heard say that the Vandersteen 5a's are not a highly resolving speaker. My Merlin TSM-MXr's are also noted for being fairly good when it comes to getting the details.
Naturally...My system, which costs 16K or so is not the end-all system. It's quite modest compared to some. My friends system costs close to 40K and I'll also admit that it's still not the highest end. If this level of gear is holding back these DACs then please stop the world cuz I wanna get off!
;-)
Mr.Tennis....I've posted elsewhere that we found the Minimax Plus more restricted in soundstage, tubby in the midrange and just less musical with the tube stage. The owner borrowed some nice tubes and was never satisfied the way he was in SS mode with tube removed. It just wasn't the top pick with our systems, but it could easily be perfect with others. Listening to the Minimax after so many raves is one of the things that started my skepticism.
Again, I do hear differences, but sheesh, are they small! Perhaps it comes down to language.
Rob |
Chayro, I agree 100%. It's just that there are more ears than mine who listened to these DACs and no one heard a big difference. Over time the differences became smaller or at least seemed so.
The associated gear is quite good. The listeners are experienced. We HEARD DIFFERENCES, but found them far from impressive and variable depending on recordings, which in turn made some of the differences a wash.
It's also my belief that the average buyer chooses a DAC based on reviews and maybe comparison to 1 or 2 other units. Certainly we cannot evaluate the way we do with speakers. In spite of my carrying on about this, I also bought my Rega DAC with minimal comparison. I got a loaner from Signature sound and compared to a few units my friend had. That's not much of an evaluation against the 30 or more speakers I listened to before I bought Merlins. Show me the showroom that has 10 DACs set up for a clean head-to head comparison. Many don't have any.
I don't doubt people's hearing, but I greatly doubt conclusions made from a very narrow range of listening experience. Hooking up a certain DAC with perhaps the best reviews going, we were sad to hear it was "about the same" as much less expensive DAC. Changing a powercord brought about more significant changes.
My main point is that some sort of "scale" needs to be employed. When people claim the Bazooka 5000 DAC destroys the SuperNova 10 there needs to be a more accurate representation as to what the differences amount to musically.
Rob |
Sibelius, sometimes tubes don't match tubes in other components. It's not very scientific, but they can sound tubby and muddy when synergy is poor. My friend sold his Minimax Plus to a fellow using a system using Revel speakers and SS power. He's pretty happy with the tube stage of the Minimax. It just didn't gel with my Manley tubes or the owner's ARC stuff.
I do think more and more people are getting turned on to the minimax plus sans tube stage. You just have to get beyond the "But I bought a tube DAC to use the tube!" angle and realize that it's SS stage was very well designed.
Rob |
more detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote that the sound is better.>>>>
Some recordings are poorly served by the ninth degree of detail and resolution, but when the planets line up I prefer to have a system that gives me everything that was recorded, or as much as possible. I have stated before that the Minimax + is more forgiving and "sweet" at the top end. I liked it, especially on older recordings. But our general feeling was that the tube stage was not doing the rest of the unit any favors, perhaps coloring the unit. I did not hear it with the better tubes, but the owner said it never altered the issues we heard.
In SS mode the Mimimax retained much of the sweetness, gained detail and space around instruments. It really was no contest. It sounded more like live music in SS mode, if less polite on some recordings.
The W4S 2 was (and still is) the detail champ, but then the Rega and Centrance edge it out in midrange presentation. The Rega and Centrance soundstage is really impressive.
Any STILL...with all of these comments above many people would LAUGH at how alike the units are overall. I have to stop listening to music, disengage myself emotionally and listen to the DACs like a mental patient! That can be fun, but in the end...it's the music I'm interested in much more.
Mrtennis, have you removed the tube and tried the SS stage for a while?
Rob |
do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , with a tube gain stage and a particular nos tube cannot sound very different than a solid state dac ?>>>>
I'd like to address this question, especially given the fact that I heard the Minimax + in two very different systems.
The answer is no. The Mimimax sounded pretty much the same. Extended listening revealed TINY differences in soundstage (weaker in the tube stage), slightly sweeter top end (audible mainly on older harsher recordings) and a bit of thickness in the midrange, especially on vocals. Going the SS mode retained the sweetness and improved other areas.
So the tube added nothing substantial, certainly not in the way my Manley amp does. I've also heard my share of tube CD players now and I'm well convinced that the tubes do little and perhaps even detract from the designs.
My opinion, shared by some and denied by others, is that tubes belong in amps and preamps, but NOT digital source gear. Of course folks will say they heard the greatest tube CDP or DAC, but I believe those units would be even better without the tubes.
Cheers,
Rob |
Tubegroover....
Actually, we AGREE! I agree there are differences and certainly they bear out more in long term listening between units. What I'm trying to point out is these differences are VASTLY smaller than the differences between other components at the same price point. Yet we read reviews that seem to give the impression that the differences are big.
I can name plenty of speakers that cost the same, yet have HUGELY different presentations. And I can confidently say the same for amps and pre-amps. But the gap has narrowed down quite bit in the land of digital sources. This was very obvious to me when I compared a modified 300 dollar Oppo player to a Audio Aero Prima CDP and wasn't all that sure that the Oppo was the lesser player. In the end, after extended listening, I did like the Prima better. But I also noted that the little Oppo did nothing wrong, sounding just a tad thin on my system.
I think some folks will prefer the Rega to the W4S 2 and some will like the Minimax + or the far pricier ARC. They're all great DACs. But none are big improvements over the other. Changing the power cable on the Rega made a bigger change in sound than switching between the Rega and W4S 2, at least in the sense of it being instantly audible.
I'll say one more thing...hope nobody wants to shoot me for it! After hearing the pricey ARC DAC and a few others I feel you'd have to be crazy to spend more than 1-2K on a DAC. The leapfrogging may be small, but it's fast and the returns diminish too far for me. You can get so much more by continuing to improve other aspects of the system. I'll upgrade to Merlin VSMs WAY before I'll bother with another DAC...as one example.
I do suggest trying the Rega DAC. It needs a long break-in, but has a solid soundstage presentation and is fairly faultless, at least with my Merlin TSM/Manley system. Other DACs would best it on one point or another, but the Rega is very solid overall and even reminds me of a turntable at times.
Cheers....and thanks for the good comments. This has been a nicely polite thread!
Rob |
I'm sorry...did someone just mention a DAC costing 10K is needed for "real sound?"
That's pretty funny! I've heard systems in the 70-80K range and never once did I hear one that actually sounded real, and they had turntables that were better than any DAC made today...and probably tomorrow.
I've heard some pricey DACs and I'm sticking to my story...buy a good one and spend your money and energy on speakers, amps and pre-amps. BTW, the Rega DAC did just fine against the much more expensive and well reviewed ARC dac. Why is that?
10K for a DAC? I own and sail a sailing yacht, which is a fairly useless indulgence, but 10K for a DAC would be a sure sign of my mental decline in the eyes of many.
And they'd be right!
;-)
Rob |
20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it as another watch or a handbag for your wife. >>
You mention trolling, but you're the one who introduced 10K DACs into a thread discussing DAC's costing quite a bit less...though the ARC Dac is certainly expensive.
You also ignored my comment, which is 100% accurate, that I've heard pricey turntable based systems than no DAC can touch, let alone sound live. So why would anyone spend that kind of cash on a DAC?
IMO there is high end gear and then there's stuff where the returns are crazy small and simply poor money spent. I've heard very expensive amps and speakers whose cost I could understand. This has not been the case for DACs so far and I've expressed clear concern for expensive products that our outclassed by far less pricey ones. Notice the title of the thread?
BTW, my 36 foot sailboat did not cost as much as you suppose. It's more expensive to maintain than to buy. And my wife wouldn't be caught dead with a silly expensive handbag. ;-)
Rob |
Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others may choose to spend their money differently. >>>
Chayro,....no one is forcing anyone's values on you or the fellow who thinks you need to spend 10K on a DAC. I've voiced my opinion and experience with equipment in two systems. It's only natural for people, especially those who've POSSIBLY invested in fantasy, to defend their point of view.
Like it or not my friends and I...at least some of them...are experienced listeners. We're also fairly pragmatic about the so-called high end of audio, especially after hearing expensive DACs in the last couple of years. Maybe we can't hear and others can. Or maybe we just all hear differently, which is something I've been saying for years. But the bottom line is that we did not find big differences in DACs, certainly not on the level of Amps (as a simple single example). The only thing I've been saying is that differences between DACs are small, and in many cases pretty hard to hear. I created a bigger sonic change in my system with simple tweaks than I did between certain DACs.
The two systems we used are fairly well balanced and thought out. Our rooms are treated. I have an isolated power leg for my system. We can "hear" subtle stuff and we protected our hearing over the years. I reported in good detail the differences between the units. I just didn't find it a big deal. Not in the way I did with other gear. It's more like the differences between Canon and Nikon DSLR's. As much as fan-boys like to pretend there are big differences...they're just not there. I guess some people don't see what they see either.
Now...what can I buy for 10K? Well that's rather silly! How about a fully isolated power leg in your home for the stereo system? I actually have that and it'll improve your system more than a better DAC and it won't cost 10K (depending on your house). What about all of the music I could buy? Or the room treatments? I bet a lot, if not most folks who pay big for a DAC could do better with their system if they spent that money on other tweaks. C'mon, dude. You missed out on the point of the thread. And again....no one's forcing you to buy a 300 dollar DAC or a 3000 DAC. This is a forum to report and exchange ideas.
I have heard expensive speakers sound HUGELY better than other speakers costing the same money. The same goes for amps, cables and turntables. I have not observed this with DACs. In fact no one I know has except for the salesmen, certain reviewers and the people who bought them.
That's my experience thus far. I like my Rega DAC, even prefer it marginally over others, but it impacts my system the least of all my components. I see that as a good thing.
Rob |
Douglas, thanks for your comments. I've made my points based on the units we heard. I will continue to audition DACs in the coming months and perhaps my perception will change!
Cheers,
Rob |
