The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it as another watch or a handbag for your wife. >>

You mention trolling, but you're the one who introduced 10K DACs into a thread discussing DAC's costing quite a bit less...though the ARC Dac is certainly expensive.

You also ignored my comment, which is 100% accurate, that I've heard pricey turntable based systems than no DAC can touch, let alone sound live. So why would anyone spend that kind of cash on a DAC?
IMO there is high end gear and then there's stuff where the returns are crazy small and simply poor money spent. I've heard very expensive amps and speakers whose cost I could understand. This has not been the case for DACs so far and I've expressed clear concern for expensive products that our outclassed by far less pricey ones. Notice the title of the thread?

BTW, my 36 foot sailboat did not cost as much as you suppose. It's more expensive to maintain than to buy. And my wife wouldn't be caught dead with a silly expensive handbag. ;-)

Rob

02-16-12: Learsfool
I think many audiophiles place too much importance on Build Quality. This is much more than slightly subjective, IMO. "Better" technology isn't much of the time...

I introduced the distinction between "build quality" and "design quality" only to illustrate a tempting way of thinking about the determinants of sound quality. I go on to identify two other determinants of sound quality, and surely there are more factors I didn't identify. So I think we're actually in agreement that build quality isn't a definitive determinant of sound quality. It is one factor among many.

02-18-12: Foster_9
"Build quality" matters, but the most important aspect is always sound quality.

Again, I agree.

I also agree with you, Learsfool, that build quality may be more than slightly subjective. Even so, I believe it is less subjective than the other determinants of sound quality I mentioned -- design quality, system quality, and listener quality. This point isn't merely academic, and it bears on the topic of this thread in the following way...

The build quality of affordable (~$1K) dacs often leaves something to be desired, IME. What I mean by this is that the components of the dac are often chosen for cost, rather than performance. This is not a novel observation, of course. Many folks here on A'gon, particularly those interested in modding, are aware that substituting higher quality parts - i.e. improving build quality - can yield dramatic improvements in sound quality.

This has been on my mind lately, as I've been building new crossovers for a set of speakers, replacing not-so-good parts with better ones (yes, better). At this point I've modded 1 of 3 identical speakers, so I can A/B the old and the new crossover with the flip of a switch. So far the results are a major improvement in sound quality. As it happens, I've also been modding my preamp/dac, again with significant improvements to sound quality.

The point I'm wandering around to make is that build quality, while not a definitive determinant of sound quality, is a major determinant of it. And to some extent, build quality is something that an audiophile can change, unlike some of the other determinants of sound quality.

Bryon

Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others may choose to spend their money differently. >>>

Chayro,....no one is forcing anyone's values on you or the fellow who thinks you need to spend 10K on a DAC. I've voiced my opinion and experience with equipment in two systems. It's only natural for people, especially those who've POSSIBLY invested in fantasy, to defend their point of view.
Like it or not my friends and I...at least some of them...are experienced listeners. We're also fairly pragmatic about the so-called high end of audio, especially after hearing expensive DACs in the last couple of years. Maybe we can't hear and others can. Or maybe we just all hear differently, which is something I've been saying for years. But the bottom line is that we did not find big differences in DACs, certainly not on the level of Amps (as a simple single example). The only thing I've been saying is that differences between DACs are small, and in many cases pretty hard to hear. I created a bigger sonic change in my system with simple tweaks than I did between certain DACs.

The two systems we used are fairly well balanced and thought out. Our rooms are treated. I have an isolated power leg for my system. We can "hear" subtle stuff and we protected our hearing over the years. I reported in good detail the differences between the units. I just didn't find it a big deal. Not in the way I did with other gear. It's more like the differences between Canon and Nikon DSLR's. As much as fan-boys like to pretend there are big differences...they're just not there. I guess some people don't see what they see either.

Now...what can I buy for 10K? Well that's rather silly! How about a fully isolated power leg in your home for the stereo system? I actually have that and it'll improve your system more than a better DAC and it won't cost 10K (depending on your house). What about all of the music I could buy? Or the room treatments? I bet a lot, if not most folks who pay big for a DAC could do better with their system if they spent that money on other tweaks. C'mon, dude. You missed out on the point of the thread. And again....no one's forcing you to buy a 300 dollar DAC or a 3000 DAC. This is a forum to report and exchange ideas.

I have heard expensive speakers sound HUGELY better than other speakers costing the same money. The same goes for amps, cables and turntables. I have not observed this with DACs. In fact no one I know has except for the salesmen, certain reviewers and the people who bought them.

That's my experience thus far. I like my Rega DAC, even prefer it marginally over others, but it impacts my system the least of all my components. I see that as a good thing.

Rob

Hi Bryon - yes, we are basically in agreement. The whole build quality thing gets argued about much more by vinyl guys, particularly on the asylum. My main point in this context is to state that too many audiophiles tend to assume that just because component A uses a more expensive part than component B, that it is therefore going to sound better. This is of course not to say that many components cannot be improved, just that the cost is not necessarily the issue.

Rob, here's one reviewer's thoughts...

I respect your conclusion/opinion, though my experience has been largely different, even prior to reviewing. I've been through dozens of cdps/DACs now, many before writing publicly. If there were not what I would call an "efficacious" benefit to pursuit of different digital front ends I would have given up on trying them long ago.

My experience is exactly opposite yours; I am finding that digital front end is supremely important and varies vastly more than most people know. As a system is elevated the importance of seemingly small/nuanced differences in cdps/DACs become huge.

I happened to just finish reading a book by Ed Viesturs on K2, a mountain where every "little" decision made can make the difference when climbing between life and death - literally. I've never died building a rig - ;) - but some systems have died an ignominious death due to one thing, a poorer digital front end.

I'm still trying to figure out how you and your friends can hear such fantastic results when switching power cords and using gentle tweaks, but can't hear differences between DACs. It doesn't add up. I would never summarize digital front ends as being less important to shaping the sound than cabling, amp, etc. In fact, I assert that if you pay little attention to the digital source you are asking for mediocrity. Sorry, no offense, but the source in my mind has become far more critical to system building than I thought it to be 15 years ago.

From what you are saying in your posts it's almost as though you're trying to see how close you guys can get these DACs to sound. Well, that's easy. Change a cable, tweak this or that; no problem. A reversion to a mean is always possible. But that hardly means the players cannot be taken in different directions, in fact vastly different directions, even though starting at relatively similar sound.

OTOH, there are players which do sound relatively similar. If that's the case you simply have to keep searching until you find one which is radically better, not conclude that they're all of one shade of performance.

To that end, did you ever try Opamp rolling the EE DAC or DAC Plus? I'll tell you straight up, if you didn't you lost out big time on that DACs potential. And if you did do so and said you couldn't hear a big/vast improvement I would filter heavily everything you said about sound in the future. :)

BTW, did you know that Bill O'Connell of Morningstar was originally quite concerned about my Opamp rolling the EE DAC, but once he tried it he was shocked at the result. Guess who is now offering the DAC Plus with an Opamp upgrade? Yup; Morningstar! He'll sell a ton of them because the DAC Plus sounds radically different with the Opamp change. I wouldn't waste my time on it writing about it if it wasn't worthy. Just ask the others who have tried it; I don't know of a single person who has done the Opamp upgrade and said it doesn't do much, especially for the money.

As far as cost/value/sound ratio - which may be your primary consideration, I have found a loose connection between cost and performance. It is not absolute, however. I have heard $10K players which rock my world, and also $1K players that do the same. I used to think there was not that much difference; I've used enough of them now to not hold that opinion.

I have had amps/speakers/DACs etc. which do sound similar. That in no way, imo, means ALL of a certain component sound similar and are not worth investigation until one which IS radically better is found. I fundamentally disagree with that assertion, and I reached that conclusion long before reviewing; in fact, it was cables, which are considered widely to hold the least potential in system development which changed my opinion about it.

In the end in one sense it doesn't matter; if you enjoy your rig you're doing the audiophile thing well. Who's to say why your four DACs sound similar? I know one thing; I could take those four DACS and make systems which sound similar to a degree, or take them and make systems which sound nothing alike. The slight nuance at the source which seems not so important can be critical to what is heard at the end of the chain.

hi doug:

regarding changes to the opamps, what improvements in sound, or what differences did you perceive from the stock op amps ???

or, another way of asking the question:

what are the sonic deficiencies with the stock op amps ?

Douglas, thanks for your comments. I've made my points based on the units we heard. I will continue to audition DACs in the coming months and perhaps my perception will change!

Cheers,

Rob

All it takes is an active preamp and an inferior SD/PDIF cable in the system and all DACs will sound poor and the same.

Get rid of the preamp or replace it with a Music First Transformer passive linestage and get a good S/PDIF cable, such as the Ridge Street Audio Poiema. Drive the DAC with a really low jitter source. Then you will hear significant differences.

The NOS DAC will likely pull ahead of the Delta-Sigma converters. Why? because these older chips dont do any jitter reduction, so they need all the help they can get, plus these dont have digital filtering which is the bain of all digital audio. Apodizing does not fix this IME.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

02-19-12: Learsfool
My main point in this context is to state that too many audiophiles tend to assume that just because component A uses a more expensive part than component B, that it is therefore going to sound better.

I think you're probably right about this, Learsfool. And I think you're also right that good build quality, in the sense of excellent parts, doesn't guarantee good sound quality, particularly when the design quality is wanting.

Of course I'm speaking from the point of view of a consumer and not a designer, so I don't mean to imply that I have any special expertise on component design. Like you, I know it when I hear it! :-)

Bryon