The damper, the tension wire and cantilever position

@nandric 

Curious that you answer the question about the ''subject matter''

which you don't understand. 
 

No. Curious that I had to “assume” what the OP was asking. And now you’re “assuming” you KNOW what the OP was asking…

So how do you “know” I answered him correctly, or NOT???

You don’t. Actually, you have no idea one way or the other, yet you find latitude to criticize me. 
 

That’s RICH!!!!

 

Assertion that anti-skate causes crooked cantilevers IMPLY that NO ánti-skate 

dees  the same in opposite  direction. .

judsauce, Simply  pass over. The thread is obviously to complex for you. 

This post makes me tired.

And thankful that I only have two needles.

Of which I'm sure both are set up incorrectly.

 

boxcarman, I made an mistake. Logic is to much to ask. Check instead  ''staw man''

strategy by ''discussion.'' . 

boxcarman,

Logic apply for all languages while each languge has its own grammar Try to

state  whaever withouy ''X is P'' simple grammar construction. That is

the known ''subject is predicat'' costruction. Very poor for science. 

Try to get some lessons in logic. 

Nandric, y'all spelt too maney thags wrong.

ANTI-SKATE involved in the ASSERTIONS (aka ''premise''). We all

think in the same way:  from premise to conclusions or deduction.

The DIFFERENCE is DIFFERENT PREMISES. In this context

the LOGIC rules: wrong premise = wrong deductions or conclusions,

There is consensus in our forum that  there is no consensus about

anti-skate.

My first test record contained an part between grooves without grooves.

The so called ''blank-side''. To get the ''right skate'' the stylus should 

stay in the same position; aka no skating of any kind= ''REST''.

Van den Hul was the first who, to my knowledge, warned against this

assumption (=premise). I was shoked because I owned my first tonearm

Sony 237 toghether  with ADC 25 . The assumption was ''the hiigher the

price the better product''. According to the Emglish saying: ''I am not

rich to buy cheap stuff''. My Sony had an ingenious provision for anti-

skate designed to work in accordandance to record surface distaces.

Even the stylus shape was accounted for. Curiously ( ?) there was no

''copycat'' of this invention. Ergo : in the GROOVE cantilever/stylus combo

work different as on or at ''blank side''.  Well the their TASK is to follow the

GROOVE. I..E the groove has , so to speak , the ''leading function''.

That is how I got my conclusions.

 

wolfie 62,

Curious that you answer the question about the ''subject matter''

which you don't understand. 

The most MC carts have an cover plate above the genarator but

some are nacked or as EMT by wich the  genrator is visible.

On the generator one can see ttwo srews on both sides. Those are .

I assume , to ''center '' the cantilever. The tension wire is fastened in

the so called ''joint pipe'' (aluminum tube) in which front side cantilever

is  gluead and coils at its back  side.. Those are called ''the moving  parts''..

The moving parts are connected with the generator on which front side

the damper function as a part ''between''. The usual wire is piano

string  fastened at the back side of the generator. At this end of the

generator the wire can''t be reached or (re) adjusted. But one the 

body of the generator there are two srews which are the only pssible

means to ''correct'' the wire. tension.  If, say, the cantlever ''devition ''

is on the left side the screw on the opposite side can be used to ''center''

the cantilever. One can put tjis also ''otherwise'', Say the damper left side

is as function of time weakened so by pressure on the tension wire

one can compensate the weakening of the damper on this side. 

Your other question is about ''generality'' by which you mean ''ALL

KINDS OF CARTS'''. Say MM as well MC. To me this is like

comparing apples with pears. Or to understan MM thread ''stricto

sensu'' in the sense ''not allowed for MC kinds''. But J.Carr proposed

to include OTHER  KINDS in thie ''MM''  thread. 

 

Having a real difficult time understanding the OP’s question, or point here:

 

Now my assumption is that damper to which coills are ,say, pressed

by tension wire  balance cantilever/stylu combo in  ''all directions'';

left and right and above and below . BUT they also MUST FOLLOW

the GROOVES.

This description applies to many MC carts, and many Audio Technica carts. Not so much to a great many MM carts. 
 

“Damper to which coils are pressed” ONLY applies to MC carts, a very narrow application. 
 

So, are we talking about weakening of the damper? Elongation of the tension wire? 
 

Every cantilever must have a spring force, and a damper. Some styli use a spring and damper in the same suspension (elastomer block). AT uses a tension wire spring and a donut damper ring. Shure used a spring tension wire, and an elastomer block for damping and high frequency spring; Stanton used a variation of this, as did Empire.

Loss of damping over time can occur, and depends on the elastomer compound. In all cases, there has to be a force (spring) to return the cantilever to its neutral position after every excursion forced by groove modulations. A loose damper will hamper this. 
 

I have 163 cartridges, most I have repaired or rebuilt the stylus assemblies myself.

I guess this is not the place to 'delve into' the reasons for the terrible mess sapiens  has got itself into, so I won't.

Your offer to hand over 30 of your cartridges for my LL is very tempting, but having over 30 is already exceeding the bounderies of sanity. Besides, I wouldn't want to have another 30 of them looking to get their revenge. My LL sample has an interesting history, but now with its boron cantilever it's nothing more than a Blackheart with a very fancy dress.....

Dear edgewear, I am  willing to exchange 30 of my cartridges for your Lapis

Lazuli. You will than get 60 and I ONLY 30 cartrideges. The inventor of the

whole Kiseki story was aware of the problem. For thiese who could not

afford  Lapis Lazuli he produced the so called ''poor man Lapis Azuli.'. Aka

Black heart . The ''on;y'' difference being boron cantiler and wood instead 

of diamond cantiever and Lapis  Lazuli jewel, Only available in Afganistan,

I am not sure  if I should inform youa bout this. But ''at present'' as Marlene 

Ditrich stated wondering why American women are so poorly clothed

''at present one can get decent clothes for ony 100000 $''

My assertion was ''based o induction''.  Like sky is the limit in America

so everyone can become rich in America, I as mentioned I spend a fortune 

on  my cruked cantievers so the only one with such ''deviation;'' is my

Kiseki Agaat. This is common practice at present. Becouse Russia 

invaded Ukraine all European country expact Russian invasion. So all

of them increased military spending and souranded Russin Nord borders.

But meanwhlle there is invasion   from the oppistww side with imigrants

from all Africa an midle East. Withouth any weapons. So tehy know how

to defend thesemlf from Putin but have no idea how to defend themself

from the imigrants. I fear USA has similar problem?

l

@edgewear It was a sad day when Kilian Bakker informed his UK Customers he was not to offer his services direct with this Country.

I do have work associates who live in Holland and Eastern France nr Belgium, so a opportunity to create something may be able to be organised in the future.

It was Kilian who was the first to inform me about airborne Metal Particulate contaminating coils, and even shorting them, when the impact is catastrophic, it can pretty much become a channel loss. This is not an issue with a particular Cart’, it has potential to commence occurring from the day a New Cart’ is put to use.

At present I am very infrequent with using my preferred Cart’, (rebuilt by Kilian), when put to use, it is approx’ one Albums Side before the Damper seems to develop a elasticity that performs with an attraction, and a good hour of use before the presentation is seemingly back to its earlier self.

 

Haha, I have over 30 of them, so I’ll be on the watch for their revenge. Thanks for the warning! I owned the Agate and still own a Lapis Lazuli (albeit refurbished by vdHul with boron cantilever). Both Kiseki carts have fairly long cantilevers and a relatively high compliance in relation to their body mass, so I would assume the record grooves will be able to force their cantilevers into a ’straight’ position without too much stress on the moving parts assembly. This would probably be more difficult with cartridges that have a much lower compliance. Do you experience the same behaviour with those as well?

edgewear, Thanks to be so kind not to take my ascription to fysical

things their own will. I am certainly not Kantian. But I need to correct

your  assumtion about my ''negletcion'' of my ''collection'' of  + 60 carts..

I stated this for them . Those wich are never or only occasionaly

used have the right to feel neglected. What  other possibility for

revenge could they have? All other things are not movable.

I wish you were my neighbour so I could be put you in front

of my Kiseki Agaat ( ''the beauty''')  before connecttion with

the grooves and in the grooves during the act of playing.

You would  than trust your own experience as usual . I will 

however not propose such ''expiment '' to Raul...

because I know his answer in advance :'' it is all about

distortions''. 

 

Dear Nandric, are we to understand your cantilevers become ’deviant’ while stored as a result of being neglected? Sure enough these little devils can seem to have a mind of their own, but this does ’stretch’ the imagination a teeny bit.

I’m only a reasonably well informed amateur and no expert like Dover, but my own ’experience’ (which definitely includes errors) seems to suggest that deviant cantilevers can be the result of two things: incorrect alignment of the cartridge forcing a straight cantilever in a skewed position or excessive anti skating pulling the arm outside and dislocating the cantilever. In both cases they need to be used.

I’m a bit of a cheapskate so I tend to buy previously owned cartridges, mainly directly from Japan. Sometimes they come with deviant cantilevers, in which case I have them checked by Kilian Bakker of holistic audio. If the deviation is minor this can usually be set straight as most cartridges have some manouvering space of the motor assembly to allow some minor realignment. But in some cases, like the Mutech and Transfiguration carts, the construction is very different and in these cases the tension wire has been bent out of shape. The only solution then is to have it ’factory’ rebuilt, if such still exists. The cheap and ’amateurish’ way to sort of correct this is to adjust the placement of the cart in the headshell to a position in which the cantilever ’looks’ straight on your alignment tool. This may look a bit weird, but it works without any obvious sonic penalty. Obviously this presupposes that the stylus is positioned correctly on the cantilever, which experts agree is not always the case. So I wouldn’t loose too much sleep over this.

@nandric Certainly no need scour through Archive Threads for my contributions.

I have and do communicate outside of this forum with some very adept EE/Engineers and Technicians who are a forte of knowledge on these subjects.

There is enough information gathered to suggest a Cart' at the time of production will have +/- tolerances allowed for as the assembly is finalised.

There is also plenty to suggest once the Cart's is in use in a particular environment and subjected to the practices of a variety of users, the variances that can develop to the assembly of parts can be very very broad.

Have a look at some of the Images supplied of Cart's that have been supplied to receive a refurb, and in many cases it can be seen the environment and attitude to the Cart' from the user, has resulted in a very undesirable condition being witnessed.

In a nut shell, New Cart's mechanical interfaces, can have mechanical interfaces that are quite unlike a New Cart's in a very short space of time.

I am an advocate of a Annual Service/Refurbish if optimum performance is the desired state for the Cart' whilst it's parts are still quite fit to perform their selected riles.   

Thera are, generaly speking, two mothods for learning. One is ''from

our eperience'', the other ''from our errors''. I wil ''eleaborate'' on the later.

Those usualy start with some confession. My is that I spend an

fortune on straigthening the cantilevers by cartridges which I purchased

with strath cantievers. .The first question was why my friend retipper

Axel Schurholz  as well my new friend retipper from Poland never told

me that this was not , say, necessary? But the other question provided

the answer: why should they? 

The other question is more difficult to answer: what or how deed al

those straith cantolever become ''deviant'' . The only answer is that

some of my cartrideges felt negloected. Mind you I owned +60 samples.

As everybody else  I had also  my darlings. 10 of those ''pre-adjusted''

in their own headshell such that I was able to change them in 5 min.

time on my beloved FR-64 S. (''S'' for steel as well SILVER). .

But I need to wait for Dover In order to check my presupposition. 

 

Dear pindac,  Am I supposed   to search in the ''endless'' MM thread for

your discussion on ''this subject'' or other ''discussions''? 

@nandric  Welcome Back.

Good to see you are pondering the Mechanical Interfaces within a Cartridges Assembly.

I have many discussions on this subject behind me.

It is the one subject that pretty much suggests each Cart' is unique in how it presents a signal as a result of the condition of these interfaces.