You know, I think that if you're going to dip into the economy pro-audio supply, a smarter bet might be the SLA1, SLA2, or SLA4 from ART Pro Audio. They are a little more money, but they are more solidly built, have far more rigorous specs (s/n of at least 100 dB, damping factor >100), and have a claimed stability down to 2 ohms. A fellow A-goner who has an SLA2 as well as amps in the $5K to $10K range, wrote me that his SLA2 gives at least 85% of the performance of the really expensive amps. He only cautions that the SLA series requires a long break-in to get there, and he recommends disconnecting the fan and front panel lights. You can get the SLA1 at 100wpc for around $219, and the SLA2 at 200wpc for $299. The SLA4 is 4x100 wpc and seems like a bi-amper's dream at $439. |
Johnnyb53, What I ment , are you into analog and if so what analog rig would you recommend. I used the term record player to denote an all in one (turntable,arm & cartridge). Any ideas to share? |
09-12-08: Crem1
Johnnyb53, What I ment , are you into analog and if so what analog rig would you recommend. I used the term record player to denote an all in one (turntable,arm & cartridge). Any ideas to share? Oh, absolutely. I got a turntable in March 2007 and started listening to vinyl again for the first time in over 20 years. I was so smitten by the sound and the way LPs drew me into the music that I added aftermarket tweaks to the turntable, and this past May bought a Cambridge Audio 640P phono stage. That touched off a flurry of upgrading, resulting in a new cartridge, new speakers, and finally, buying the Onkyo integrated amp. My turntable is a Technics SL1210 M5G direct drive turntable. I have added the kabusa.com tonearm fluid damper, have upgraded to a more rigid and non-resonant headhsell (Sumiko or LPGear ZuPreme), and Audio Technica AT150MLX MM cartridge, which--at $250--is one of the best-sounding cartridges available under $1000. I added threaded brass cones to replace the springy feet that came with the turntable and put that on a cutting board isolated by a couple of silicon gel keyboard wrist pads. Out of the box, the Technics direct drive turntables bring a lot to the party. They are ruggedly and heavily built (about 27 lbs.) to very close tolerances, and the speed consistency and rumble levels are better than any belt-drive turntable under $4K. The tonearm wire on the stock model leaves a lot to be desired, and makes the turntable sound unnecessarily dark and closed in. The SL1210 M5G, however, has higher grade, OFC copper and sounds much airier and more extended. The tonearm is built to very high precision--the bearings are polished to a tolerance of 0.5 micron and the bearing drag is specified as 15 mg. In addition, for a mere $150 you can update this tonearm to work well with a wide variety of cartridges by adding the tonearm fluid damper offered by http://www.kabusa.com. In fact, KABUSA also offers a Cardas tonearm rewire for $169. I'm sure that it's better wire than comes in the SL1210 M5G. Kevin Barrett (KAB) also performs a multi-point inspection of all Technics SL12x0 turntables and re-machines or corrects anything out of spec (for no additional charge) before he ships it to the customer. I would recommend getting an SL1200 MkII from KABUSA and add the tonearm rewire and fluid damper. This would come to $794. He also has a wide range of cartridges available at really good prices. His prices on Goldring MM cartridges are particularly low. He could mount, align, and balance the cart as part of the order if you want an all-in-one unit. |
Johnnyb53, Thank you for your recommendations. Are there others out there with hands-on experience with recommendations ?? |
09-12-08: Crem1
Johnnyb53, Thank you for your recommendations. Are there others out there with hands-on experience with recommendations ?? Certainly. If you ask your same question (and add your listening and operating criteria and budget) on the Analog discussion page here at Audiogon, you'll be overwhelmed with suggestions and answers. |
Johnnyb53, FYI : T.A.S. has included the A-9555 in its recommended buys for '08. |
09-13-08: Crem1
Johnnyb53, FYI : T.A.S. has included the A-9555 in its recommended buys for '08. Yep, they and I seem to think alike when it comes to budget gear. I picked the A-9555 partially because of their (and Stereophile's) favorable reviews. But I picked out the Oppo DV-980H (also an Editor's Choice) and the Mirage OMD-15 loudspeaker (one model down from their Editor's Choice award for the OMD-28) on my own. The A-9555 is also a Class C Stereophile recommended component, though I think it's better than that. It certainly deserves to be ranked above the Outlaw RR2150 receiver. |
Johnnyb53
I have also been really happy to read this thread - thank you.
I continue to enjoy my Behringer amps for my desktop applications, but was very intrigued to read about the Art amps, and happy to see that Parts Express carries them as in my experience they have an absolutely no questions asked return policy.
At a glance, I would think a pair of SLA2s might also be a biamping dream on a budget?
Can anyone else comment on how the build and/or sound quality might compare to Behringer and other cheap as dirt candidates? |
09-23-08: Cwlondon
Johnnyb53
At a glance, I would think a pair of SLA2s might also be a biamping dream on a budget? How about an SLA4? It is a 4x100wpc (8 ohms) amp with the same wide bandwidth (10-40KHz), low noise ( 100) as the SLA4, and also fits in a single-height rack space. It also has a 2-ohm rating, so its current delivery must be pretty good. Although the Behringer is advertised as a 280wpc amp, it tested at about 120 wpc into 8 ohms, both channels driven, with the frequency response rolling off at 10KHz and fairly high noise levels. For about the price of two A500 Reference amps you can get an ART SLA4, with 4 channels or 100wpc, wider bandwidth, lower noise, and better stability into lower impedances.
Can anyone else comment on how the build and/or sound quality might compare to Behringer and other cheap as dirt candidates?
I'm also active on a guitar discussion page, and while Behringer is considered OK there for the low amount of money spent, it's with the understanding that the build quality is not that great. The ART Pro Audio, however, is considered high quality. Aczel stated that no one should be able to hear the HF rolloff. I say "poppycock!" For one thing, cymbals and violins make overtones out to at least 16KHz, and overtones define the tone quality and personality of the instrument. Secondly, HF rolloff below 20KHz means the amp has an audibly slower rise time. If the ART SLA series is truly linear out to 40KHz as claimed, their rise time is four times as fast as the Behringer. This makes a significant difference in keeping the music sorted out and clear. Definitely translates into inner detail among other things. The Stereophile Review of the Outlaw Audio RR2150, which also rolls off starting around 10KHz, also shows a visibly slower and rounder corresponding square wave response as illustrated and explained here. |
04-26-08: Rodman99999
Davemitchell- Perhaps Mr. Aczel is a re-incarnation of Mr. Hirsch? Mr. Hirsch may have shared Mr. Aczel's "It all sounds the same" philosophy, but he was never as hateful, condescending, nasty, and mean as Aczel is on every page he writes. I don't agree with the late Mr. Hirsch, but he was a gentleman, at least in print. |
Johnnyb53 : Can we please keep Aczel out of this? He certianly causes blood to boil. Unfortunately, I never appreciated the anger issue when I mentioned his review. He detracts from the fact, the 500A's as mono blocks are certianly outstanding driving the Nova Enolution , a full range speaker in my home.
As for professional stage amps ,I agree, I also would never use them . My cousins are professional musicans (LA, Vegas & Touring) & I also play guitar as an aside. I prefer nos tube Marshall, Fender and VOX , although lately my cousin ,Tony Scuito, has been using some strange named Chinese gear he gets from the distributors. Having been on the road before I understand the issues. Of course, for a coffee house singer & player on a tight budget a 500a could work.
I'm going to give a look to the SLA's . All the best. |
Does this mean the SLA4 can be bridged in some way to combine 2 of the 4 channels per side?
Of course, as an audiophile I would be disappointed to not have 2 chassis, which means a pair of SLA2's might still be better....
|
09-24-08: Cwlondon
Does this mean the SLA4 can be bridged in some way to combine 2 of the 4 channels per side? According to the description at ART Pro Audio's website, the SLA4 can be configured for 2, 3, or 4 channels. Two bridged channels make 280w into 8 ohms. So it can be 4x100wpc, 2x100wpc +1x280wpc, or 2x280wpc. |
I ended up with a Musical Fidelity A3CR when looking for the best for the price of dirt ($600 on ebay) and am still glad I did. |
Re ART amps, are the "Euroblock" connectors recommended?
If I have to spend big bucks on weird cables, this amp might no longer be as "cheap as dirt"?
Thank you, |
09-25-08: Cwlondon
Re ART amps, are the "Euroblock" connectors recommended?
If I have to spend big bucks on weird cables, this amp might no longer be as "cheap as dirt"? It's not that complicated. The SLA1 and SLA2 accept single-ended 1/4" phone plugs, balanced XLR, and balanced Euroblock. The SLA4 accepts single-ended 1/4" phone plugs and balanced Euroblocks. In either case, if you have single-ended RCA interconnects, just get some RCA-to-1/4" adapters. If you used balanced XLR, you can plug them in as-is to the SLA1 and SLA2. If you want to use balanced XLR to the SLA4, you would replace the XLR plugs at that end with Euroblocks, which cost about $1 apiece from electric/electronic parts suppliers. |
According to AG , this post has surpassed 10,000 views , something of a "Dirt" landmark. Thanks to you , "Dirt" rolls-on 10,230V and counting. |
if you are diyer. check out ska amp. it is superb. the designer is also top class to work with. most queries is answer swiftly. not related to him. just a very very satisfied customer. |
Just in case your interested, I mention the A-500's are operating as new, trouble free. They have risen in price and who knows if the quality is the same but mine continue to be "The Best (cheap mono) Amps for the price of dirt". Of course there are many other receiver-type products that claim to rival the A-500's and that maybe. But for now, with exception of the big buck entree mono blocks these are an outstanding bargins for someone needing power within a budget. They can drive almost any speaker on the planet w/o stress(mono-block configuration). |
Todate, over 12,000 readers have viewed this thread. Thank you for giving us a read. |
As previously discussed, I use two "cheap as dirt" A500s in a monoblock configuration for my desktop, and a third in another office.
I use them for cable TV, CDs, DVDs, and all PC based applications including music.
In about 2 years, I have used them almost every day, and rarely turned them off even through several storms and power outages.
Recently, I wondered if the skeptics might be right as the left channel amp seemed to die, with low volume and heavy distortion in my left speaker.
Further examination, however revealed it was only a loose connection from moving my rolling rack.
So my "cheap as dirt" amps are going strong and better than ever.
I apologize to those of you who sell tweaky overpriced amps for a living while insisting that you always "get what you pay for".
Cheers, |
According to Jim Smith's new book "Get Better Sound", identical amps with gain controls are preferred for "vertical bi-amping". I believe these amps will be able to be bi-amped in the manner Jim depicts, another plus. |
The tube amps in the "Big Rig" are in for a refirb. The A-500's never sounded so delicate ... Thank you to all ... You can not appreciate how delicate the sound is following 500 hrs of break-in. Thanks ... |
Adcom 545 mk2. Hands down the value winner for me.
Arthur |
This thread should have been entitiled " Best Mono-Block Amps for the Price of Dirt ". My fault.
The A-500's are best configured as 500W mono blocks with specs that can go down the page. They can be compaired Mono-Blocks costing 100 to XXX as more ; mine cost $198.00 ea. , including an additional 2 year, "No Questions Asked", warranty. The bite on them is that "Hi-Fi World" yawned in their review & Robert Hartley declined to review them for "Stereophile". "The Audio Critic" highly recommended them but some just love to hate the Editor and his recommendations : I view that behavor as unethical even if Peter is hard-core in his views. I have been reading his views for 30+ years. My view, he is more correct than not , even if he's a nut on a rare few issues.
The A-500's can hande almost any speaker from 2-16 Ohms with grace. Here's the rub ... Should you get a superb pair they work that way right out of the box. I am told a few % points of stock sold is terrible, Ergo the need for a modest cost extra protection warranty. I purchased mine from musican's friend web site , wonderful folks to do business with.
I'm certan lots of superior equipment exists but 0-500W @ 8 ohms ???? My only rub ... I only listen in 8 ohms & all should do so as mono-blocks. |
It's warmed up in Texas and my room is already sweltering when I run my AR cassic 60. I decided to look for a warm weather amp for cheap. I found an audiosource tripath amp. It came today and so far it's sounding quite nice. I got it here on audiogon for " cheap as dirt". There were mixed reports about it on the web. No hum or rf iin my setup. I'm pleased |
Docdan50: I reside in Maryland, land of 4 seasons. Here, the summers are getting hotter & more humid. In MD, A/C is very expensive , up near 500 % from the time when I purchased a tube amp. Thanks Gov'.
As in Texas warm weather relates to a change-over from tubes to solid state.
This year Dave Cocklin's S.O.B.'s;they are 84-90W,use 6550's or KT-88's Test-Beds , serial #'s I & II sneezed ; the iron plates in the chokes started to create a slight mechanical noise . Doc, these amps have been good to me. Besides unparalled sound, I have had no break-downs in 18 years of ownership . I am the second owner to David who is no longer with us.
Eric Falkenhan (410-467-3620) is to replace the Chicago Standard Collins R-63 Chokes with drop-in replacements. The alternative would be a mucho-buck rewinding & potting or re-dipping of the plates, not kind things to a bank account in hard times.
The A-500's have been returned to service in the "Big Rig". In my view they stand on their own merits with any speaker source & are of course "cheap as dirt".
Doc, the best to you & your amp source. Pleas keep us informed of your listening experiences. |
I've tried too many amps to count and have been very impressed with ChiFi. Best $, period. Best audio BARGAIN.
Just got Shengya A10CS from eBay seller "listeningchina" for $800 shipped for US 110V version. it's same as Vincent SV-236 MkII sold in US for $2,000. My decision was based on glowing review on Stereophile April 2009 issue.
Wow. No kidding and can see why this int amp has been darling of TAS too as "Editor's Choice" for 3 years straight (2006 to 2008).
This along with Esound CD-E5 will be with me for a while.
I've owned following amps in last 10 years: Linn Classik, Monachy SE100, Marsh Audio (another TAS fave), Bel Canto evo, PS Audio digital (Bel Canto was way better), Nuforce, Dussun V8i - all in order. So went from solid state to digital back to solid state (Dussun was another great sounding 90lb bargain) to tube/ss hybrid.
Listen guys, just take TAS and Stereophile's glowing reviews says it all and yeah incredible BARGAIN at only $800!
Lastly be careful when you buy from China as most are 220V. |
It seems like the trusty Behringers are still the reference standard for the price of dirt.
For those of you who try to pay your bills by selling Ongaku amps, I will concede that one of my "monoblocks" has a noisy volume control after two years of constant use.
Perhaps this can be fixed with some contact cleaner.
They otherwise continue to sound great and work like champs with my ATC monitors on my desktop.
cheers, |
has someone mention diyparadie charlize ta2020? Can't beat it's value for money for only less than $100. Someone might ask what can $100 amp do in term of hifi? Just find out more at their forum. It's claimed to beat multi thousand dollar tube amp
Hope this help. Just a v satisfied customer for the money paid. It's in module form though
Erwin |
Milen007, Thank you for stopping bye. I did go to the web site and the T Switching Amp named "charlize" did look interesting, but Oh Charlize is a beauty ... her picture depicts a true motion picture star. I have watched all of her films.
As for the Amp it certianly qualifies as a DIY'er and for someone that feels 10W is what they need to create beauty... Go For It ... |
Recently, I purchased a beautiful pair of Mageplaner 12OR's that I mated with the A-500's and Mapleshade Double Helix Speaker Cable. A match made in heaven. I have used several front ends all sucessfully. For far-less than 1K using a digital front end including Sony HD Radio, anyone can have a mono-block system with planar speaker that competes with just about everything out there , deep bass exempted. A Hi-End life anyone can afford without going broke. |
"High-End" relative to YOUR discernment. The Behringers Behr-ly sound like music in a professional application(when they work). That's why I'll only install/recommend them for my won't-budge-cheapskate venue or musician customers. Have fun with your get-what-you-pay-for thread, and all the "last words" you want. =8^) |
Golly, What kind of representative of your profession are you ? I discern anger ... Go somewhere else & leave us in peace. |
I would think the biggest problem installing/recommending the Behringer is you can't make as much money selling them.
Mine still sound great and work perfectly.
|
I have always wondered why some amps cost so very very much.How much difference can there be? Granted WonderCaps or whatever the latest in high end pieces are called now,are more expensive than higher production components are,but the design R&D is old by now.How different in design is a Krell design to my Hafler from the late 70s? Is it $3,000.00 different? They both make very clean current.
I can remember auditioning the Hafler against a similar size Pereaux that cost 3 times as much and the Hafler won in many ways. Why?
btw My Hafler was built from a kit and has been working beautiful since 1979.
This amp is a great steal on ebay these days.
The 500w monos sound very interesting to me for my Acoustats but I am not sure what I would gain from them (if any).
Lately I have been concentrating on bettering my front end and has given me huge bumps in performance.
Not to mention,all the lps I have been picking up in stead of buying amps.
great thread |
Crem1, No worries he is always like that...know it all. |
Has anyone heard the Emotiva XPA-2? 250 a side and very nice looking construction all for $800.00 ! |
