Looks good!
I am curious as to why you place a piece of paper under the 45 spacer. Does it vibrate?
I am curious as to why you place a piece of paper under the 45 spacer. Does it vibrate?
Technics Sp10 Mk2 vs SL-1200G - I finally did an A/B
Guys, it is payback time. I have asked so many questions here to improve my knowledge or make a good purchase. I should give back now.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
This is a topic that is HOT these days. Are the new generation Technics 1200G/GAE and Sp10-R better than the vintage Sp10 Mk2 and Mk3 ?
I have myself asked this question multiple times here. The most common reply was a resounding "Yes" in favour of the new 1200G/GAE. The 10R is still too new and not many have a direct opinion. But in general, even those who have commented on the 1200G vs Sp10 mk2, almost no one has compared them side by side. Some have written based on aural memory, some based on specs and design, and some have written based on pure subjective opinion.
In any case, most of us are very happy that Technics has done it. A very few business oriented minds might be disappointed that their business around vintage Technics DDs would take some hit due to these modern machines.
Since I was in the market for a good high resolution TT to replace my modded Loricraft Garrard 301, I took active interest in the Technics DDs. Overall I was convinced that the 1200G is the machine to look out for. It was clearly favored over the smaller sp10 and more or less compared to the bigger sp10 mk3. I got a brand new 1200G and sent it to Time-Step audio for their Evoke PSU mod. It is a very well accepted mod in the UK markets. In general the Switch-Mode PSU of the 1200G is considered its Achilles heel so this mod was a necessity.
I finally had the 1200G at my home. I won't go into the process of setting up as it was a simple and straight forward one. I used its own Technics tonearm to start with. I tried couple of platter mats but its own default mat sounded fine so it remained. I have 2 cartridges to play, the Denon 103r and Ortofon Cadenza blue. None of them are esoteric stuff, but I find them very neutral and musically "right" sounding carts.
Straightaway the 1200G revealed that it was a more transparent and higher resolution player than the Garrard. The noise floor was lower, inner details more easily heard. Soundstage more precise and layered. Great! There was an extra sparkle to the sound which was quite thrilling. More like going from HD to UHD. What felt a bit lacking was overall dynamics and scale. The 1200G sounded "Compact". The Garrard was like a full blown full scale sound. I let the 1200G run at 78rpm for many hours so that the burn-in process is expedited. I also tried both the auto and manual servo settings to vary the torque and balance of the sound. As I listened more I also realized that the 1200G does not have the fluidity that I am used to with the Garrard or other belt drive TTs I have heard. Notes bloom but die out instantly, followed by a silence before the next note. Something that joins the notes so that it all sounds related was missing a bit. In terms of dynamics, the intensity of an "explosion or a shout" was kind of controlled. That takes away a bit of that startle factor which allows us to get awestruck with our systems. Bass on the 1200G sounded a bit chopped. It did not feel very deep and powerful. I rather felt I am listening to mid-upper bass with average impact. But when it came to details it sounded like a super Cd player in a good way.
I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true.
After about 2 weeks and multiple hours of comparison on all kinds of music, I decided that while there are areas where the Garrard lacks and Technics clearly shines, musically Garrard is more realistic whereas Technics is more cerebral. I knew I was going to miss that hi-rez sparkle from Technics but I could only keep one so it has to go. I sold the 1200G. But the curiosity still remained so I bought a Sp10 Mk2.
After there 1200G left my place, the Sp10 Mk2 arrived. I did not have a plinth but I had read on Audiogon that it can be used in the naked form with a suitable isolation like the Audio Technica AT-636 Pneumatic footers. I have those footers so I installed the Sp10 on those footers and used the 47 Labs tonearm with Denon 103r for listening.
In the first 10 secs it was clear the Sp10 Mk2 is a more dynamic player than the 1200G. It sounded more like a Garrard in terms of scale, dynamics and drive. At the same time it was more transparent than Garrard. I had read couple of opinions that the vintage Sp10 DDs has more torquey motor drive. Here I was clearly hearing that. If I enter the room, I would not know which player is playing simply because of the similarity in slam, dynamics and tonality. My Garrard has the audiosilente idler wheel, woodsong audio brake disc and kokomo bearings. It is also driven by a dedicated AC regenerator for a clean AC input. In effect it is a much cleaner and neutral TT than typical Garrards. The Sp10 Mk2 is a less romantic sounding TT overall but it does not feel "compact", "thin" or "bright". It sounds natural, which is a very important trait to enjoy music. It sounds big and punchy without sounding colored or veiled. I have not even installed the plinth yet. My Garrard is still the king in the system but the Sp10 is a good contender with higher resolution and lower noise floor overall.
Guys, I don't know how to put it. I am not here to spoil the party of the 1200G/GAE owners. It is definitely a very complete package. You get warranty, company support, spares and all the peace of mind with the new Technics DDs. But if you are one of those adventurous types deciding between the old school and new gen Technics TT, the old Sp10 mk2/mk3 wins it for me, purely from the sound quality perspective. New technology probably has given the new Technics a bit more refinement but the drive, excitement and immediacy of real instruments still is conveyed best by the grand old boys.
My system:
. Loricraft Garrard 301 (mods: Kokomo mk2 bearing, Audiosilente idler wheel, Woodsong audio brake disc, Funkfirm Achromat, Monarcy Audio AC regenerator)
. 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm
. Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Denon 103r carts
. Trilogy 907 phonostage
. Berning MicroZOTL 2.0 preamp
. Audio Note Conquest Silver Signature SET monoblock amps
. Tannoy Turnberry SE speakers
P.S: I did not compare the 2 Technics side by side but it was almost back to back as the Sp10 arrived after 3-4 days of the departure of 1200G. Since it was all in my own system, I had a good hang of what they felt like.
126 responses Add your response
lewm, You forgot to paste the fuse with “Total Contact” Maybe “Mad Scientist” or “Acoustic Spit” I tried HiFi tuning fuses in my Spectral DMA 360s a decade ago +/-. One blew the next morning at turn on. I replaced it with a ceramic fuse from Ace hardware for 0.55 $. Both are still in their respective amp. I cannot hear a difference. End of fuse experiments. |
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I have followed all of the Technics related threads since Axpona 2016. I started by asking if people heard the ‘table and thought of replacing the tonearm. Many have bought the 1200G and have thought that the stock arm is very good. It Is. Few, if any, have considered having the table modified to take a better arm. I have had my 1200G modded with a Triplanar Classic SE arm. Happy that I did. No Remorse. Unless I win a lottery, this will be my final rig. I am happy that others are trying different PCs, lCs, Mats, Record weights, Cartridges and sharing their thoughts. Just adds to the knowledge for All to get the best from the Technics TTs. The Technics arm is good and will allow you to easily try many cartridges, but IMHO, only to a certain level and then you just will not get from the cartridge you would like; all that it can deliver. You will need a better tonearm to accomplish that. As “Raul” told me: I can try rewiring the arm, try different headshells etc. Pain in the butt, some people like to do this endlessly; Not for me. Five mats and 3 record weights is enough. Final mat is Oracle acrylic platter mat and final record weight is HRS 315 gram record weight. This TT is music 🎶. A bargain and high value. All that have joined the Technics family; enjoy and keep experimenting. The stock ‘table can be improved. |
I think I was being too hard on Pani. I can well understand why he went for the PS upgrade just based on this affliction we all suffer from, that of being an "audiophile". Then too, I had the very weird experience of hearing that a fuse connected only to the LED lights in an autoformer volume control affected the sound of the system dramatically. And in the presence of four other experienced audiophiles, some of whom are "in the business", and who all agreed on the observations. So, the autoformer itself is completely passive with no power supply at all. On its chassis it has a digital read-out based on LEDs that light up; that little circuit that runs only the LEDs has a fuse. We compared an expensive audiophile fuse to the OEM "hardware store" fuse. If anything, we expected to hear no difference at all, because the electrical circuit has no relation to the autoformer. But to all 5 of us, the hardware store fuse sounded BETTER; it was obvious. I am still chewing on that. |
Believe it or not, I cannot see how that external power supply was an upgrade. The 1200G to my knowledge is not designed for this modification. I am not hearing power supply issues. A good power cord does benefit the table. The secret with this table is run in. It takes a while but those who do this will be rewarded with excellent performance. With this table, its not about what is better or worse because every table has compromises. I think its more about the cartridge you put on it. Once one spends more than 3 grand on a table, I think the differences will show more with what cartridge you use with your setup. Also, things can be very system dependent as well. |
There's no denying the possible ways in which a PS can negatively effect performance of any device that is actively passing the signal and especially if it's amplifying the signal, like one of DB's amplifiers. What I am questioning is how the PS of a turntable can affect the sonics of the vinyl reproduction system, except by the mechanisms I did acknowledge that require direct radiation of RFI or EMI from the PS to the cartridge, via the "air". And it does require some care to shield the LP from such potential radiation. I recently found that a copper platter mat greatly enhances the sonics of my Kenwood L07D, probably for this reason. So, having taken that position, I must also doubt the possible effects of a power cord, for essentially the same reason. The signal is never modulated by the PS or vice-versa, in a turntable. However, because I am as anal as anyone else here, I have upgraded power cords on my turntables just as a matter of course; I've done no listening tests, because I would not believe my own results. I know from my scientific background that it is impossible to divorce onesself from listener bias. If you've spent money on a new toy, and if it looks cool, then you are bound to hear that it is "better" too. (Just read any of the threads on this Forum.) Life is too short to worry about it. |
The Garrard would be more for fun and variety. Also it looks cool. Now that is the news of the decade! If Garrards are back in production and that too with engineering prowess of SME, it will be a huge one. BTW, a stock restored Garrard is nothing more than fun, don't expect it to satisfy your audiophile cravings. It has to be really tweaked with some modern parts to get it to perform "hifi". That is one reason why Garrard is not an inexpensive proposition. |
@pani Thanks for your comments on the Time-Step power supply. There are very few A/B comparisons from actual owners on the web and those are mostly rather equivocal. I was hoping you had listened to your table before the operation. I read your review with great interest. My plan was to buy a Technics 1200G (which I just did) and, later, a restored Garrard 301. This year, I want to start making transfers of the rarer recordings in my record collection. The Technics is perfect for this. The Garrard would be more for fun and variety. Also it looks cool. Now, however, SME has announced the production a new Garrard 301 sometime next year... Great time for turntables in any case. |
2 things @lewm , 1. I have spoken to Berning directly on this subject. He clearly agrees that all SMPS has those switching distortions which manifests as a hint of glare, hash..in the HF region. After all music signal is basically riding on the power created by the PSU. As per Berning, his output transformer is primarily filtering those distortions that occurs in the very high frequencies. Still it is somewhat audible which he says is a compromise to choose from. An analog PSU as per him is big, bulky, susceptible to interference from other components, complex (because it has to be an external box) where a good SMPS is small, efficient and with his design less distorted. So, the point is, SMPS distortion is ubiquitously accepted. 2. I have heard power cords affecting sonics very very clearly and that too not in a subtle way of magnitude. If you don't agree with such a phenomena, that's fine. Have you tried different power cords on your TTs ? |
With due respect, I disagree with many of your a priori assumptions. True, EMI from the tt motor can move back onto the AC line and contaminate the AC going to other components, and I suppose any EMI or RFI from an SMPS can do the same, but it is only normal prudence therefore to isolate the AC line supplying the tt from the AC going to other components. The same, by the way, goes for digital equipment. How could switching distortion from an SMPS supplying a turntable affect performance except by the mechanisms mentioned? And how is it that Berning amplifiers are so highly regarded, given that they have used SMPS type supplies for a few decades now? (Because I do think it’s possible to create a clean SMPS or at least a well isolated one.) Whether an AC cord can make a difference to the sound of a tt, I will leave for another day. I’m sure it can, via the mechanism of listener bias, which is very real. |
Every PSU has its own distortions which come through in a TT too. That’s why a power cord change on a TT also results in a different sound. A SMPS has its switching distortions in Hf region. It also spews back the noise into ac line contaminating the sound of other equipments. All of this probably causes the hash that we all relate to in a SMPS based equipment. I have personally felt the problem whenever I have used any SMPS based audio equipment. Be it the Linn Ikemi cdp, Bluenote Stibbert cdp, Crayon audio amps, pro-ject phono RS etc. I didn’t want to bring in similar trouble with the 1200g |
I take that back. Of course there is another way that the PS could color the sound, and that’s by direct radiation of RFI or EMI that could be picked up by the cartridge. But that is a problem that could easily be prevented in the design, if adequate shielding is utilized. Having the PS outboard also would help. |
Pani I just cannot come up with a hypothesis to explain how the SMPS could cause a fogging of the audio signal from the turntable. In my most paranoid way of thinking about it I suppose it could cause a periodic speed aberration but no one has reported such an observation. Anyway, good luck with your new tt. |
Pani: Did you listen to your Technics 1200G before you had the Time-Step PSU installed? No, I did not. I bought it with Time Step PSU. What does the Time Step psu do to or for the performance of the 1200G?The 1200G comes with a SMPS by default. It supposedly adds a layer of HF hash to the sound. It is a very common phenomena with all things involving SMPS. The time-step PSU is an analog PSU with toroidal transformer and designed as an external unit connected via an umblical cord to the TT. It supposedly lowers the noise floor and sounds it should, i.e "analog" |
Dear Lew, thanks for the implicit compliment . Your willingness to buy those ''necessary titanium screws'' for me means to me that you are satisfy with my Ortofon MC 2000 . I should obviously ask more money for the precious (grin). I am not sure if Dertonarm's Arche is made from titanium but well that my Clear Audio headshell is sold to me as such. So those BT-1 kinds will get good company if you succeed to buy one set for your ''old forum friend''. |
Pani, How are those Tannoy Turnberry speakers? I often see them in stores, but I’ve never heard a pair in action. They are popular in Japan, for sure. Lewm, anything for a Tannoy related discussion :-). These are the only items that has remained in my system for the last 6 years without even a thought of being replaced. They have a monitor like tone without any dryness. They have a throw and presence akin to a horn speaker but at the same time sounds like point source because of the concentric drivers. They do deep, punchy and wet bass notes which are again a speciality of those big drivers in a big cabinet. Oh, you can get me talking on this all day long. You should listen to it properly powered. My friends here in Singapore have replaced their Avalons, Focal Utopia and Wilsons with a Turnberry and are amazed with what they have been missing all these years. |
Thanks, Chakster, but my dance card is full of two full range crossover less speakers. The Sound Labs 845PXs from which I’ve removed the crossover and the Beveridge 2SWs which employ electronic crossovers, high pass and low pass set at 80 Hz. Above 80 Hz it’s a single driver. I am very familiar with Zu but I have never heard a pair in a private system, only at shows. |
@lewm you have Zu Audio in Utah, they are amazing if you're looking for full range drivers like Tannoy. I'm a big fan of full range crossover-less speakers. If you're not familiar with ZU check Druid MK VI or Definition models. I use lower Druids, but upgraded with latest drivers and latest super tweeters. These speakers have tremendous dynamics up to 101db. |
Nandric, The screws are marketed by Yamamoto under the product name, BT-1. I think you can probably buy them from an eBay vendor. The price was about $25US. When I saw them, I remembered clearly that DT regarded titanium screws as a categorical imperative, per your now ancient posts on the subject (not directly from DT). I think Henry had some too, for his Palladian cartridge. By now, I thought you were a happy user of titanium screws. Anyway, now you can be. If you can’t find them, and if you let me know in the next few days, and if I go back to an audio store for one of those other much more expensive items, I’ll pick you up a set. |
Dear Lew, There is or was some saying mentioning details in connection with the devil but at my age I am glad when I can remember the name of my mom. So, no wonder, I totally forget those titanium screws. I see you are still going strong in this connection or context. Curious but true this is a kind of ''reward'' for my politeness. Dertonarm promised to me ''some'' of those (for free) but also mentioned that his whole family (wife and son) is involved in production suggesting ''I am very busy''. So I was reluctant to bother him with asking such questions which we all consider boring . Aka the questions about our promises. If you deed not mention those titanium screws I would be still in the beneficial position of not knowing. But I also see that can order some in Japan and ask for ''unaccompanied delivery''. |
Thanks for the clarification, JP, as you are one of the few who actually has all the usual suspects in your custody. This means also that a 10R would drop in to my 90 lb slate and wood plinth that I made and had made for my Mk3. Still not persuaded to pull the trigger. Have one or two more shopping days before we depart. Off topic. I have been and remain very tempted to purchase a Viv Float tonearm while here. The price is very attractive compared to US norms. Have any of you guys sniffed the Viv? My interest is part experimental and part based on my fondness for my RS Labs RSA1 tonearm, another underhung one. I’ve already stocked up on 4 new headshells and, Nandric, titanium headshell screws marketed by Yamamoto. I trust that Dertonearm might approve, although these are Japanese by definition, not German. |
Another album on which I liked the 1200G was Dave Brubeck "Time Further Out". It is an all acoustic percussion based music. It has a lot of off beat Rhythm sections which if not reproduced with proper transients and timing, won't be musically understandable. The 1200G reproduced it very well. I did not care if it was better or worse than the other TT on this album, it just sounded very good. So, listening percussion which is a lot more dependent on starts and stops and right pitch, direct drives are always very nice to listen. |
All, The fastener holes on the MKII, MK2A, and MK3 are in the same location. A MK3 will fit in a MKII/2A plinth (SH-10B3 or B7), though a MKII/2A will not fit in a MK3 plinth (SH-10B5) as that plinth has a smaller cutout for the round back can of the MK3. So, and SP10R will absolutely fit in an SH-10B3, B5, or B7 without issue. |
Actually, I am very much a “whole-ist”, Nandric. I have reached a state of satisfaction with each of two audio systems and feel no real need to radically change either one. This perhaps is one reason why I feel no compulsion to purchase an SP10R, even though I am in the land of Technics for one more week. I have room in my thinking for trying different cartridges and headshells and maybe a few electronic mods to equipment I already own, but that’s about it. I do have a weakness for old things that were beautifully made by craftsmen. So I “love” my Leica M3 as much as I love my L07D and the other DDs. I could be tempted to purchase a Yamaha GT2000X and/or a Pioneer Exclusive P3, but it would take a lot of tempting, and it would really only be to appease my other muse for good old stuff. The Apolyt must be extraordinary, but at that cost, it may as well not even exist for me. However, I am interested to see how DT will eventuallly create a little brother to the Apolyt which he can sell for perhaps 10% of its cost. THAT would be interesting. |
There is, in my opinion, this division among us regarding our love for our ''components'': essentialist and holistic. Love has to do with selection and selection with intensity of our feelings for whatever. I am in love, so to speak, with speakers, tonearms and carts. I don't care in the same way for TT's, amps and other components. I realized this by reading bluewolf post about Acoustical Systems. His story is actually the story about ''our'' Dertonarm (tonearm in German). He is obviously a holist. The whole system and all the parts of the system are equal important and presuppose love for each separates. That is to say love needed for design and production of each ''part''. I regard myself as a friend of Dertonarm and as belonging to the so called ''German group'' or '''German maffia'' depending from personal sympathy. Buit I had no idea about Dertonarm's amps, speakers , TT's and other possible designs. To my knowledge only Syntax would be able to tell the ''whole story'' about Dertonarm holisme because he is involved in this, say, ''Dertonarm's adventure'' for a long time. Writing about friends is scary business because of our doubt about our own objectivity. As an additional argument: Lew was and is my ''orientation point'' in this forum since I become member. I noticed his love for, in particular , turntables so he may function as an example of an essentialist (grin).
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In your above post, are you suggesting that Technics ought to offer the option of SP10R + plinth but no tonearm?@lewm HI Lew. yes, Technics should offer the SP10R, new plinth and tonearm as separate items. Many of us have different/better tonearms we would like to use on the plinth, but not be stuck with having to use the back left slot on the outside of the new plinth. I would like to try the plinth with my SP10mk3 and Thales tonearm - then at some stage compare vs putting the SP10R motor into the plinth. or I might just buy one of the ACOUSTAND TECHNICS SP-10R PLINTH's that look very similar to the new Technics plinth. |
Pryso, Sorry I apparently missed your previous post regarding cross compatibility of plinths. However, the information is unlikely to be correct, simply because the Mk2 and Mk3 per se are not cross compatible with regard to plinth, unless Technics leaves a gaping hole that can accommodate both the square shape of the Mk2 chassis and the smaller diameter round shape of the Mk3. Plus the placement of the threaded inserts for mounting the two tables is slightly different, if I recall correctly. Most of the best aftermarket Mk2 and Mk3 plinths are custom fitted to either one or the other chassis, but not both. Now I am writing this, I think perhaps the factory obsidian plinths might be cross compatible by virtue of the use of inserts at the corners, so as to convert the square hole for the Mk2 into a round hole for the Mk3. I know I saw that somewhere, long ago. Anyway, I think Chakster has the details above. |
@pryso SP-10R can not be used with SH-10B3 Obsidian Plinth made for SP-10 mkII simply because the shape of the SP-10r is different. So i think it can be used ONLY with SH-10B5 Obsidian Plinth made for SP-10 mk III |
Lew, and others, as I reported elsewhere, the SP-10 R was designed to be a drop in for plinths made for the SP-10 Mk 2 and 3. When I heard a recent demo of the SL-1000R at a local dealer the Technics rep emphasized that point. Apparently they want to make upgrades (!) as easy as possible for current owners of the older models. I've also read where Technics may introduce their own separate plinth this summer. If true, based on the above information then I assume either of the older models (which do have somewhat different cutouts) should also fit into the new plinth. In other news, I agree with tzh21y regarding the value of acoustic piano music for evaluating turntables. |
The thing I read and again things are subjective to each listener is that the 1200G sounded less real than the other tables. As I have never heard either of those tables that reviewer listened to, I have to say that I personally have not heard a table for 4 grand that sounds more real that the 1200G, that simple. One thing I listen for in analog that helps me judge a table/cartridge performance is how they handle voices, piano, bass and drums. The piano is just such a difficult instrument to get right and I have not heard many tables in this price bracket or actually much higher price brackets get that piano to sound like it does on this table. The sustain and decay on the most subtle inflections are quite impressive to say the least. If the piano sounds right, most likely everything else will fit into place. This is very obvious on jazz recordings which is just very hard to find at this price point. The timbre and air is very realistic and sounds like real music as this table "gets out of the way" so to speak and lets a listener (this listener) finally really hear his collection. I can easily follow each instrument musical presentation and get to the heart of each musicians performance. I believe to get this kind of performance, there will be compromises. Certain recordings are not going to sound like they did on lesser designs because this table is very revealing, accurate and neutral. If you want a more euphoric sound a belt drive or older design will in fact present these colorations in a pleasing way, no doubt about it. But then again, there will be compromises as with this piano thing. Through my experiences, tables that add these colorations will not get you there with regards to that beautiful piano. The 1200G is quite impressive for 4000.00 to say the least. If the SP 10 mark 2 can do what the 1200G does and if you can get it less expensive and know it is in good condition and not abused, all I can say is you are in for a treat. One record that really surprised me is Black Sabbath Master of Reality. That may not be everybody's favorite however the way the 1200G articulated the bass guitar is in such a way I have not heard from this record. Right now I am listening to Miles Davis Kind of Blue on the Classic reissue and I have not heard Bill Evans Piano sound this good on this record which I feel does not compete with the original "not in the same ball park" but yet I have not heard this record sound this good ever. I can easily follow Evans I can "hear" that piano better than I have been able to on this record than on most turntables I have listened to and this with the stock "free" arm and stock power supply. I cannot even imagine what this table is capable of with a Triplanar, Reed, and so on. So if the two tables Pani reviewed do a better job than the 1200G all I can say is wow, go for it. |
Downunder, In your above post, are you suggesting that Technics ought to offer the option of SP10R + plinth but no tonearm? If so, I was thinking the same thing myself. Perhaps that will come eventually. Because there might also be a market for the plinth alone, to use with an SP10 Mk3. I would imagine the new plinth kills the old obsidian plinths that Technics supplied with the Mk2 and 3. This is assuming that the old tables will bolt right into the new plinth. Well, at least the Mk3, because the Mk2 has a different shape underneath from the Mk3 and 10R. To belabor the capacitor issue once more, I once replaced all the electrolytic capacitors in an SP10 Mk2. There are 21 of them, as I recall. Mk2s are now around 38 years old. What are the odds that all 21 of those capacitors are still fully up to spec after circa 38 years, if they are still OEM? (As you might imagine, my opinion is that the odds are slim.) By the way also, the cost of those capacitors was probably less than $25US. I’d say it was a precaution well worth taking. |
Pani seems like you methodology has been completely sound and fair to both tables. Very useful in you sharing, despite the nick picking from some. Does not surprise me as the SP10 has always been above the SL1200 in the past. Does not surprise me that the tonearm is the relative weakness in the current SL1200 table. I am surprised for the SP10R, that is you want a plinth - Technics are forcing you to buy the tonearm as well. Many audiophiles will opt out on that oversight alone. |
The tonearm was placed on the 1200G plinth and not on an external stand. So in that respect it was fine. In fact it significantly improved the 1200G compared to the stock tonearm. I have a few mats. I tried them on the 1200G and 301. Finally I chose to use mats which suits each of these TTs best. Anyway, the differences were so fundamental that changing mats or cables or even the rack wouldn’t change anything. I don’t use typical audiophile recordings to evaluate gears because I want to finally own them and not just write about them. I use regular music which I have grown up listening. Simple stuff like Cat Stevens or Billy Joel should allow me to be lost in their musicianship. Else I know something is less right. |
What I have learned in this lifelong hobby is that with turntables and analog, it really comes down to that darn cartridge and its synergy with the rest of the system. Can the arm and table handle it? That darn cartridge really has a lot to do with the way its going to sound and picking the right one is huge. |
I missed part of that. OK- one of the strengths of the SL1200G is a properly designed plinth! If you mount the arm separately so that its not coupled to the plinth, a coloration will occur. The only real way to ascertain what is the arm and what is the 'table is to mount it on the 'table. I would also be concerned about the platter pads. If they are different the machines will sound different, as a platter pad can help reduce resonance in the LP surface if made of the right materials. That can have a pretty big effect on the final result! |
@atmasphere Did you not read Pani's commentary? I decided to play with the tonearm at this point. I have a 47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm which has its own standing mount. One can just lift it and place it at the right distance so that the under-hang is correct and you are good to go. It is a musical tonearm. Once installed, this tonearm gave the Technics a significant jump on the performance. Especially it made the Technics sound less hifi and more musical, more fluid, more jump factor. Just plain more realistic. But then it brought the same kind of improvements to the Garrard too. I did a lot of comparison shifting this tonearm between the 2 TTs. All my above comments about their differences holds true. . |
@tzh21y, I suspected as much. I have never understood how the ’professional reviewers’ could review an item with no burn/run in time. At least @pani took 2 weeks or more to try and give a proper listen. @pani, I too at one time owned a phono pre that I thought would be neutral and without coloration. It was the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and the companion Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply for an even more dead quite sound. But I could never get over the lack of imaging, detail, dynamics, and flat soundstage so I opted for the older technology of tubes for a phono preamp where I can actually notice intimate precision acoustic information and haven’t looked back. As you would say, ’But the old warhorses have not been surpassed IMO. In fact that goes to show the level of understanding those old engineers had about music.’ And in my opinion everything from the stylus tip to the sound that comes out of a particular speaker has it own color or sound. Subjective as it maybe. So I've always tried to buy audio to dig every piece of the recording session out of the grooves. I took an old $30 'antique shop' Technics SL-D2 direct drive turntable and got the headshell upgraded with Ortofon LW-800S headshell wires and added a Shure V15VxMR cartridge with a JICO SAS (Super Analogue Stylus) VN5xMR stylus, got the tonearm rewired with KAB SuperFlex Tonearm wire just so I could dig out more sound in the grooves with that table. Now if I can just upgrade that receiver of mine... So if anyone out there has compared the Technics Sp10 Mk2 vs SL-1200G and has ran them through any rig with tubes, that would be interesting to hear. And guys, again forgive me for not staying on topic and thank you all for your insights. |
For me, I was initially on the fence as it did not sound like what I heard in the brick and mortar shop. It took a while, longer than I would have liked. It seems like all Japanese products I have purchased in the last 10 years take an inordinate amount of time to run in. The Delos, the Marantz, and now this Technics. All I can say is it takes a good 100 hours just to loosen up and then at least 300 hours and it really started to show what it can do. At around 500 hours its sounds very good. Sounds different from belt drive but I can tell you that I am listening to everything these days, Old Jazz records sound just fantastic. I would leave it spinning for at least 2 weeks. |