Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
jf47t, Good one. PS. Why are you wasting electricity? Think about trees, birds, and blue skies. http://libguides.usc.edu/writingguide/casestudy https://awc.ashford.edu/tocw-guidelines-for-writing-a-case-study.html |
"This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience? I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why? You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen? I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it? thanks, be polite" http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t440-talk-but-not-walk-an-audiophile-forum-case-study |
Glupson, Always in search of materials and shapes to speed the removal of unwanted resonance from a component, speaker or musical instrument. Also working with material shapes and concepts that act to limit energy from returning up and back into the exit point and shape. The understanding and limiting of how returning energy can corrupt the signal path is fascinating. I would expect this to always be a work in progress. Mitch 2, I dont make springs or use them. By nature they restrict resonant energy from leaving a component or speaker and may even increase interference under a device in motion..such as a turntable and speaker. Tom |
audiopoint, In all fairness, it never says that the statement about Michael Green was made by Steinway & Co. or someone representing it in any way. True, most of us, me included, first thought of the piano makers, but it could have been anyone with last name Steinway. It may be misleading because of our views, but it may really be true. Regardless of what it is, it deserves benefit of the doubt that it was some Steinway man who said it. The part about Ray Charles, Beatles, etc. is mentioned often on this thread. Where exactly is it on the website? I tried to find it, but could not. What I learned about myself here is that I have a hard time finding things on Michael Green associated websites. Even when many others saw it, I cannot find it. That does not include tuning description/instructions from start to finish. I am starting to believe it is not me, but the website design. However, it would take only one project in one studio that is used for mixing/mastering/anything of recordings by said artists and a person could say that her/his work was used for recordings of those artists. Many, if not all, of those mentioned musicians have had their recordings worked on in some way relatively recently, including after their deaths. If Michael Green did contribute to such an establishment, he could truthfully say he was involved. Maybe not sitting there during recording sessions of Yesterday or Hey Jude, but there would be some involvement. Think about Bob Ludwig’s studio. Many well-known artists’ recordings have been worked on there. Whoever supplied monitors can say she/he was involved in the process and these are the names who used it. |
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Geoff, Why anyone would wish to drive the circuit boards and everything else with 60 Hz vibration is beyond me. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.
Our newfound technology is scalable, increases sonic in comparison to old school techniques and can adapt and serve multiple purposes in advancing the art of sound reproduction and also serves several purposes in other industry applications. The fact that you are unwilling to audition or believe something other than isolation exists because it violates the LIGO agenda, we cannot help you. Wait for reviews to come out on the new studio environment where there are no aftermarket acoustics required as you tend to ignore the existing reviewers’ true findings, customer’s truthful testimonials and refused free auditions over the past few years. In addition you cannot figure out, relate to or simply ignore our explanations so again we cannot help you. To use the LIGO analogy if you ground the surroundings to the mirrors you see the vibration not the gravity waves. Follow? We understand your point on LIGO however LIGO has no sound and nothing to do with our research, development and/or product functions. Stay locked in your way and forget about music and sound evolution because if you dare go there, you might “hear” what it is we are advancing - rapidly. Robert |
This is really interesting stuff...." two ears and one mouth for a reason" .....I am not quite there, is there a connection with eating more fish? If God wanted us to eat more fish, wouldn’t he have given us two mouths and one ear....or does he want us to hear the fish too? Regarding springs, Geoff sells springs but so does MG...or Harold, or @jf47t . However, it seems Tom sells special springs that Geoff and MG do not understand. Robert doesn't sell springs....hmmm....There are springs on my SUV but I can still feel road vibration. If I use Tom’s springs will that make my SUV a hovercraft? This is all a bit confusing but I am paying attention so I am sure I will understand when we get to the punchline. |
theaudiotweak, "...for resonance to vacate the parts or the chassis. Ours do and furthermore they reject energy from below that attempts to re enter either by hard contact or by reflection onto the Audiopoint."Are we talking about "decreasing" and not "eliminating"? To someone not experienced with either of the approaches, it reads, probably wrong, as "eliminating" which seems fairly unbelievable. Maybe "decreased to a really low level"? |
theaudiotweak - you really don’t pay attention, do you? We’ve been over this many times before. I never said Springs allow vibration to get out. You’re embarrassing yourself. I feel embarrassed for you. 😬 Head down to your local library and study up on mass on spring isolation. You haven’t leaned a damned thing. Besides, I just got through describing why seismic vibration takes precedence over induced vibration. Were you snoozing? Eat more fish. 🐟 🐟 🐟 🐠 God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. |
Geoff Your springs present no exit path for resonance to vacate the parts or the chassis..Ours do and furthermore they reject energy from below that attempts to re enter either by hard contact or by reflection onto the Audiopoint..Our brass coupling discs maintain impedance and transfer speed, the disc shape diffuses interference the tip geometry rejects the left overs. MG has no clue how these devices work. Butt now after 30 years and reading this post he might..well maybe not..Blocks of wood sound better when they are used in inconjuction with and grounded with our points and discs as are cello and bass. Tom |
prof is on holiday. Remember? Of course if he was a real audiophile he’d at least take a peek on his iPhone. I guess he just doesn’t want to be bothered. 😥 I suspect he probably brought along Zen and the Art of Debunkery to read on the plane. My guess is there will be a sudden flurry of well thought out pseudo arguments soon as he returns. |
Robert, you say ground the transformer to the chassis. I say isolate the chassis and everything else inside the chassis from the transformer. Why anyone would wish to drive the circuit boards and everything else with 60 Hz vibration is beyond me. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. To use the LIGO analogy if you ground the surroundings to the mirrors you see the vibration not the gravity waves. Follow? |
audiopoint, Aside of yours and Michael Green's disagreement here, it Is interesting to see your point regarding tuning. To those who have not jumped on board, and probably never will, it shows some other view. I, personally, wish I had more technical knowledge and time to discuss it deeper, but I am glad I can learn your points. Thanks for participating. |
To jf47t who plays both sides of the fence. As the trolls on this thread become more desperate as well as former short term employees of Michael's (guys who didn't cut the grade) they are talking without actually walking. Guess you’re attempting to spout off at Peter or me in referencing your difficulties understanding why we are no longer employees of that guy who has only twenty-five (25) year old images of himself posted on his site? According to your discrediting statement we talk and do not walk however in our meager defense, please examine our list of talkers or whatever name calling you wish to provide today. We are a professional organization in comparison to your extremely limited current vision of audio related talent. Here is a list of our company “runners”. http://starsoundtechnologies.com/aboutUs.php Now please show us yours… Star Sound |
@geoffkait,
Solution: I really enjoy the big sound and dynamic headroom generated from “big honking” transformers and high power. There is no need to relocate it. For the DIY or serious learner, simply remove the rubber gaskets and mechanically ground it to the chassis (there is a cone for this application). The majority of mechanical and electromechanical noise will transfer at high speed to the chassis. Then mechanically ground the chassis to the racking mass to complete the high speed resonance transfer process and you are rewarded with more quality of sound, a cooler running temperature and most importantly - layered harmonics and dynamics that will soar through the roof! No big capacitors that vibrate and shift the phase. Solution: Mechanically ground the caps too! The transformer and power supply are the primary culprits for forming resonance. The caps as well as all key parts (outputs and circuit) should also be grounded separately to the chassis. This leaves each part to independently vibrate on its own accord without the influence of vibration affecting other parts and transfer resonance to chassis mass as it forms. The component operational efficiency will increase substantially without affecting the sonic character of the amplifier. Phase issues are a direct result from resonance build up without an effective mechanical grounding plane. No large chassis that vibrates. Really? Even small chassis vibrate. Any device that demands AC or DC power to operate will vibrate and form resonance but you already knew that. No fuse to worry about. Never had any issue with fuse protection for safety reasons. Minimizes internal wiring, about 50% of which is soldered in the wrong direction anyway. Plus there is simply LESS things to distort the signal or vibrate. GK, you can manage vibration - right? I would not know what music would sound like without distortion properties. After all that is how tubes establish their sonic profile as well as musical instruments - they distort! In a perfect world with no vibration or distortion would music have sound? Lightweight components are easier to isolate from vibration. We cannot comment on isolation as that was part of our past where those theories have long played out over time. I know isolation techniques; specifically springs always had issues dealing with various component weights. Need a thin spring for this two pound product and require a different version for that hundred pound device and an automobile sized spring for that three hundred pound speaker has always been the stumbling block. We no longer deal in that realm as weight is never an issue with our technology. In your opinion GK, are we walking yet? My personal tastes require a sound system that generates both mind and physical stimulus. I need to feel the kick drum in my chest and the bass guitar moving my feet where headphones do not satisfy my personal listening requirements. There are no industry related findings or proof that differences between high mass and limited mass systems exist. They all vibrate alike. It appears to be just personal opinions that are being presented here where ‘solutions’ on the other hand appear to be in limited supply. Give me that “big honker” of a transformer, lots of power with a 4 kHz snap in a kick drum and I’ll vibrate the world… ⌣ Robert |
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thecarpathian, You must be new on this thread, when you still ask what response is. With a decent certainty, responses to questions about facts here are diverse. They range from "troll" to "trolling". It is, by no means, frequent response specifically from jf47t. It is simply "the response" and used by anyone. |
jf47t, Feel free to use any of my comments for improvement of your website. That is why I wrote them. If Michael had accepted that offer at Oneonda, he would have needed to pay attention to those details and corrected his students so they could improve. However, it is much easier to notice and correct afterwards, the way I just did, than not to make a mistake while creating something. It is easy to overlook details while creating. Also, thank you for that link to the instruments company (Conn & Selmer). It is, in fact, attaining such knowledge that I find this thread useful for. Something I would have never looked up myself and that I have no knowledge about. No use for it, either, but I like learning. If I could give you that fame you say I am acquiring here, I would give it to you in a heartbeat. You seem to crave and need it much more than I do. |
glupson jf47t, https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune-rtd2 Slide show on above page (I think it is slide 9) has decibel with capital D, but abbreviation as db. It would be more correctly dB and decibel. Not a biggie, but just so you know. >>>>A typical English major comment. “Not a biggie.” You got that right. 😝 |
Hi Glupson I’ll be sure to share your latest posting with MG. I’m sure he’ll be wanting to include it on the TuneLand thread. Hey your becoming famous glupson. The content your asking about has been moved a couple of times since UMI originally made the Power Point for Michael Green Audio. http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103 UMI (United Musical Instruments) since bought out by http://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us As you know Michael has worked with and beside a long list of musical instrument companies, would you like their names? |
jf47t, While you are at that, welcome page, Bandroom Room Tuning, click for more info. The link does not work. "...how folks went from finding out about tuning..."They must have worked very hard. It is not that easy to find it. More like a scavenger hunt. Eventually, you can pick up bits and pieces from the side of the road, but road signs are missing big time. The magic of the Internet is also that it is easy to leave if something is too complicated. It takes about four clicks to get anywhere in that universe. Edit: Actually, it takes exactly 19. From Bandroom Room Tuning (when it works) to donations for extinct rhinoceros. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/any-two-pages-on-the-web-are-connected-by-19-clicks-or... |
No big rush glupson take your time. TuneLand has tons of empirical walking posted all over it's pages. As you guys settled down and start reading some of the different listeners threads you'll be able to see how folks went from finding out about tuning to implementing tuning themselves. You'll see how many different tools Michael Green has designed and his background that got him into the designing. Michael has been asked to make a series of videos so I would think at that time the site will be updated some. Websites never stop being updated that's the magic of the internet. |
jf47t, https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune-rtd2 Slide show on above page (I think it is slide 9) has decibel with capital D, but abbreviation as db. It would be more correctly dB and decibel. Not a biggie, but just so you know. |
jf47t, "On TuneLand you can read start to finish system tuning." Is there any way you could point out where? I tried the link below and under it "more info". The only thing that it did is showed me pictures of a building, including what looks like a dressing/make up room. Is there any other place I should look for info about how to do the tuning? Not the theory, the actual work. https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/about-tuning A few of us have pointed out on a few occasions, the website really needs some reworking. |
It seems to me real audiophiles, shall we call them the doers or the walkers, are oft viewed by non audiophiles and anti tweakers, you know, the idlers or the talkers, as kind of kooky or fringe or weird, or even cultish. Nothing new there. Have you ever watched an audiophile perform a ritualistic treatment of a CD before each play? I used to think that was a little obsessive. 😬 Reading glupson’s story of his visit is reminiscent of watching some teetering eighth graders looking through their first Glamour magazine. Hard to believe there are such virgins. 👶 Why, it’s almost like he thinks this is the invasion of the body snatchers. I’m not trying to set the world on fire, just start a flame 🔥 in a few hearts. ♥️ - Kooky Burns ”Turn on, tune in, drop dead.” - Alfred E. Newman 😬 Made the scene, week to week Day to day, hour to hour The gate is straight Deep and wide Break on through to the other side Break on through to the other side Break on through, break on through |
"thecarpathian This was funny! For Geoff this must be a lot of fun. For example how far off the mark audiopoint is is shocking. It appears Robert has stepped on his own landmine and has indeed backed his own company into a corner. MG has barely said a word but Robert again is one of these guys who can't help himself. I did ask MG earlier today what he thought of this thread and he shared with me what he has been doing on the referencing thread on TuneLand. Funny stuff. |
All this talking and yet as the walking is being done listeners are indeed leaving their high mass systems for lower mass. Mods, please disregard my post alert. thank you For those asking, if you go to www.michaelgreenaudio.net and click on forum it will take you to TuneLand. As the trolls on this thread become more desperate as well as former short term employees of Michael's (guys who didn't cut the grade) they are talking without actually walking. As the OP points out these people are obviously "fakes". On TuneLand you can read start to finish system tuning. |
thecarpathian, Yup, that is what I found, too. Not much I could find about actual tuning and what to do about it, but it was interesting nevertheless. I am glad I was directed there. It could not be used for audio-topic, but in sociology and a few more branches of behavioral science, it would be good for a thesis or two. That is what my "interesting" referred to. A whole new world I was unaware existed. Almost giving up on gaining any more knowledge about actual music reproduction, I read with real interest. What I find either strange or, if it is all real, disturbing is the fact that most non-MG posts are written in the same manner. As if it was only one person writing them. It is probably not true, but having only one-minded crowd around rarely brings any progress. And to be that similar? As jf47t once mentioned in his reply to me....scary. Unless it is really only one person writing. Then it would be a mix of baffling and sad. On the positive side, Michael Green that I know from this thread here comes across as less of a religious figure and more of a person you/I/anyone can agree or disagree with and imagine meeting in real life. In other words, more down to this planet. I have had no complaints about him here, despite some disagreements. In fact, I think he is an asset. I wish he visited more often. He does make me think and consider things from angles I am not used to. |
