Yeah, right, Tom. Pearls before swine, eh? 🐷
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
theaudiotweak, I suspect I understand your points, but am at the same time, for my own exercise, broadening it and considering different media borders (for lack of better definition, wherever different density material meets) and what would and could happen there and how the transmission would change. Again, probably off-topic at this point, but most of the things on this thread are not related anyway. And I mean, thanks. Regardless of if you will be 50 years from now proven right or wrong. |
Glupson, Shear waves only transmit in solids not air or water..Air and water have very loose connections, solids have very tight connections. I suppose molten metals or molten lava would behave somewhere in between a state of liquid or solid and that would change as the material cooled into a solid state. Tom |
Geoff, I know how they work. Your brain only works in the compressive world same as you think the Shakti Hollographs only do. When a compressive wave passes across the solid surface of the varied forms of wood of the Hollographs that wave turns into a shear wave ( only in a solid) . That shear wave motion causes the solid to move slightly.. the air around that shape to vibrate and the fact that there are 2 different species of wood of over basically 6 different sections and lengths you now have a change in the compressive wave 6 different times per single unit. Now that 6 times does not take into account the boundary areas where the twisted pattern in the wood is held at each end..nor does it take into account where it appears there 2 different species of wood joined together at their intersections..All those areas now included have a different shear velocity as do the 2 different species of wood as do the different sectioned lengths that cause a change in air motion and that is what you hear when those waves come in contact with other solids like the wall surface and your eardrums..they too resonate and cause a change in air motion... So how many times are those shear waves in all those materials and shapes make for change in your compressive world? Tom |
theaudiotweak, "All examples of resonance transfer of shear waves from one surface in contact with another material and shape."Could, for this purpose and in some theoretical ("talking") sense, a fluid be considered "surface"? I mean, does what you are proposing have to be two hard mediums or any of them could be fluid? It may seem off-topic, but it is not in the longer run. |
Sorry, Tom, wrong again. Resonators do not have to be touching anything. They could, it might be convenient, but it’s not necessary. They can be just hanging there in free space. Like the Shakti Hollographs. Or they can be located where there is mechanical vibration where they convert the mechanical energy to heat. You know, like the Dampers I used for twenty years to allow energy to exit the system. Your Polarity of Shear theory has run aground, as it were. But I enjoy watching you trying to guess how something works. Very entertaining. |
All examples of resonance transfer of shear waves from one surface in contact with another material and shape. The resonance outcome of both materials and shapes are unpredictable I think. How their motion results in a different compressive sound is also unpredictable. Experience with materials and shapes maybe the best tool under the ear. Probably why the Mpingo discs work in some places for some and others not as much. Also a experienced listener and tweaker may find a better result in a shorter amount of time than the less experienced.Tom |
Glad you asked. I was going to say before that I have been using many types of wood for like forever. For my first iso stand I used cherry, oak, maple, and Baltic birch for the strength member. For the next iso stand Promethane I used mostly maple but also Baltic birch for the plates. I also experimented with a range of hardwoods to gauge their effects on the sound, like the foot long planks against the wall. I think the next thing that happened after than was I discovered crystals. 😬 of course others have experimented with various woods, e.g., Shakti Halographs, Myrtle wood blocks, and I can’t recall the dude’s name who roamed CES back in the day demonstrating his contraption made of many different types of wood. There are also other Shun Mook devices that employ ebony other than Mpingo, but the idea is the same - highly resonant wood that exhibits directionality. Spatial Kit, Diamond Resonators, Shun Mook record weight. Sugar Cubes from Franck Tchang are also wood. |
Speaking of Tuning blocks has anyone experimented with Mpingo discs? I have. A lot. Now, I don’t know whether you classify a Mpingo disc as a tune or a tweak but it is without question one of the most amazing devices in the history of audio. The reason you find so many folks who report negative results with these smallish 1 1/2” ebony discs is because it often requires a lot of trial and error to find a location where the sound jumps up very noticeably. In many locations, even some locations where you’d think it would definitely work, it doesn’t. In some locations it can hurt the sound. With care many Mpingo discs can fit into a room. One reason the Mpingo disc is so tricky is because it’s very directional. It’s directional top to bottom and the around the azimuth, as the disc is rotated. You can also get a sense of how powerfully these hardwoods by leaning a one foot plank of ebony or almost any type of hardwood up against the wall and observing how just one plank affects the sound. It’s like with crystals. Which, incidentally, one of which is placed surreptitiously inside a Mpingo disc. 😳 |
theaudiotweak I have a healthy respect for carved and shaped tonewood some in shapes that are valued in the millions. As I wrote earlier the instrument in hand can easily be brought back into tune unlike wood blocks on the floor under speakers and components. Tom >>>>Well, to be blunt, more like an unhealthy obsession. |
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I’m not trying to start a fight but I have always maintained isolation and coupling can live under the same roof. In fact that’s not just talk, I actually walk the walk as I’ve always used coupling with my isolation stands ever since the beginning more than twenty years ago when I debuted with Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade at CES. I have also always supported the concept of damping for the top plate of the iso stand. I have always recommended extremely hard, ballistic cones under the component on the top plate AND underneath the iso stand itself. So, yes, isolation and coupling live under one roof. The roof of Machina Dynamica. I suppose if someone seriously believes isolation is impossible or doesn’t understand the first thing about it it’s not surprising he would say isolation and coupling cannot live under one roof. Machina Dynamica. We do artificial atoms right. Electrons zooming around a hole where the nucleus is supposed to be. |
jf47t, I am not assuming Michael Green does not have a PhD in physics. I concluded that from his mini-biographies that I did find interesting indeed. If I am mistaken, I will take the blame although partial fault may be on him for presenting himself incorrectly. However, you are in Las Vegas after all, I would gamble that his thesis was not on the dynamics of fluids, air included. I am not sure what "more organic approach to life" really means. It surely appears like a sweet choice of meaningless words. Asking people to fish for explanations, that seem fishy to many in the first place, may not be the best approach to explaining. My personality is whatever it is and, if you are correct about him, Michael Green and I share one same trait. Give me a point in your wide-open admiring eyes for that. We both are not disturbed by some unknown person behind the computer screen throwing insults at us. It seems that both of us are confident in ourselves and what we do. Also remember, you have no idea what other people on this thread have done in their lives. Do not make Michael Green seem ridiculous by repeating that he makes so many decisions every day that others would not believe it (not exact words, but in that sense). As much as you may see it that way, refrain from presenting him as an incapable man in need of a legal guardian. He has not made it to 58 with not having any idea what he was talking about a minute ago. In fact, do not write about Michael Green at all. Better for both of you, if it is really two. Bring us Michael Green from before you appeared back. That one was annoying to many, but reasonable in his own way. Admitting that one is afraid to climb the ladder brings much more honest face to someone you describe as a faking semi-god. Having said that, is it really true that those pictures are from 25 years ago? Hard to believe. |
Glupson Your assuming MG has no PhD in physics. Just because someone chooses a more organic approach to life doesn’t mean they haven’t the formal training as well. My friend you are way off when it comes to Michael. You have no idea what kinds of testing MG does or has been a part of. MG does not dismiss anything. He does however discern when someone is being real with him or faking it. Your wanting to call that no answer I’m sure is fine by him. If you say you haven't visited where MG is supplying the answers, with pictures, words and proof there would be a question of hypocrisy cast on you. There's a big difference between not giving answers and someone refusing to look at them. Glupson at least for me you have painted your character in this thread quite well. As we all have. http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t440-talk-but-not-walk-an-audiophile-forum-case-study |
jf47t, "Forums usually use words, drawings and pictures to illustrate points."I tried to find anything but words on Audiogon forum, but no success. I am hardly a character here, but I will take a credit. Even a negative one. You can take fame, though. Original post failed to recognize one simple thing. There are different ways to approach most of the things. Many have pointed it out in different ways, but essence has been the same. It is unrelated to tuning, but is related to music reproduction and even recording, yesterday, or the day before, I ran into a youtube video. It is quite clearly a promotional stuff, but also gives an insight in how people work. The man talks a lot, but does not seem to be faking too much. His approach to the room he is recording other musicians in is more of a "well, I got used to it" and the room is, even to me, suspicious at best when it comes to acoustics. It was surprising, but he does have some credentials when it comes to music reproduction so be it. I have a hard time believing that none of the Michael Green suggested ideas work, but I feel the way they are presented, and attitude that comes with it, is not doing them a favor. I think that asking for real scientific (formulae, graphs, etc.) explanations will not be useful in this particular case. It will just expose that Michael Green has no answer of that kind which, I think, is just fine. Forcing him to do it, and him trying to come up with something resembling explanation using "scientific" terms is neither fair nor useful. He freely admitted he has no PhD in physics and that he is not wired that way, if I can use that term. At the same time, just dismissing anyone who asks more exact questions is not valuable, either. Neither approach brings anything that can be used for conclusion in this case. |
Glupson "Forums are, by their nature, talking. They are inevitably a written form of communication which is also "talking"." This is actually incorrect. Forums usually use words, drawings and pictures to illustrate points. Since you and others asked to be shown answers from Michael he was courteous enough to start a thread dedicated to this topic. You can see Michael is happy to communicate in the manor you and the others requested. Michael uses TuneLand, Skype, Periscope live streaming and YouTube (more videos coming this fall supposedly) as well the Get Tuned Gain visits audio shows to meet and greet with folks in person. Glupson this is the topic of audio. Using only words as you can see and have participated in is limiting at best. The very OP has been twisted and turned by words, but now this topic has an opportunity to become more useful. As Michael has pointed out from the very beginning this thread will prove the OP to be on target. And it certainly has. You yourself being one of the main characters. This thread serves as a good example for others as they converse with you in the future just as it will with all of us. |
"The variable is the weather and how it changes by the hour and the day. Wood is affected by the weather, and like the weather wood of any type changes in composition and content." Tom, you don't listen in a controlled environment? Again I'm a bit surprised. Most listeners I know, and I know Michael deals with, the first thing they do is control the listening environment. It's very strange to me that you think letting the room run wild without controlling it's condition is acceptable. You say you and Robert both have worked in recording? Room conditioning is priority one so the instruments and equipment work consistently. Sorry but again it raises questions for me about your methods. Michael is meticulous about room conditioning, I'm surprised your not. Is there a reason why you choose not to condition your rooms? |
@jf47t
"MG and Geoff learn by actually doing," "MG and Geoff disagree on some of the absolutes but have found a way to allow isolation and mechanical transfer to live under the same roof," " Like with MG and Geoff we on this thread..."and further, " We all have two ears you know (quoting Geoff from the fish post)...." there are no rights and wrongs as Geoff has tried to tell you,"ah, but wait... "Geoff, I don’t want to speak for you (after several posts speaking for Geoff)"and then, just when I thought I understood, @geoffkait "Robert and Tom," " Tommy and Bobby..."I always thought Geoff was an independent but it seems he has joined a team, or acquired a fan club. I apparently have not been keeping up, are Robert and Tom an item, or are we picking sides for dodge ball? Now that would be fun! |
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jf47t, "I see you guys are trying to prove your case by "Talking" on someone else’s forum" I have not been to Tuneland in a couple of days so situation there might have changed, but at that time I could not recognize anyone from here there while I could recognize those from there here. It seemed that guy(s) from Tuneland were trying to prove their case by "Talking" on someone else’s forum first. Participants from Audiogon were invited, multiple times and in not-so-subtle ways, to check out Tuneland. Belittling them for eventually doing it would be a move not worth discussing further. Discussion here about springs, isolation, energy of any kind is interesting. Unfortunately, it too often gets cut short in mad insults to the other party and focus shifts to the personalities instead of matter discussed. Forums are, by their nature, talking. They are inevitably a written form of communication which is also "talking". Making fun of people "talking" on the forum is puzzling. At the same time, it is understandable if you are not familiar with accepted ways international scientific conferences are conducted. There is a lots of talking, but not too many experiments performed in the auditorium. I have not met anyone who claimed that such meetings have no merit. At least not anyone worth listening to. |
The variable is the weather and how it changes by the hour and the day. Wood is affected by the weather, and like the weather wood of any type changes in composition and content. Springs are not linear in their reaction to compressive waves nor shear waves that only travel in solids. They provide no clear direct path for shear energy to exit. Othèr than those 2 things I suppose their okay. Tom |
jf47t When "doing" the variables there are no rights and wrongs as Geoff has tried to tell you (am I correct Geoff, I don’t want to speak for you). >>>>Actually, now that I think about it, no, I would not say that at all. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Otherwise we’re just shooting blanks in the dark. But obviously none of this matters since all the naysayers are either not audiophiles, anti audiophiles, pseudo intellectuals, or pseudo skeptics who made their minds up a long time ago. I will write a book sometime, The Trouble with Trolls. Dealing with sound requires a large measure of ESP. You have to know what the problem is, how to solve it, and where to go next, where the next problems are. Most people including audiophiles don’t really know what they are hearing, what’s wrong with it or how to fix it. And they generally don’t think about it too much, from what I can tell. Shut the cave door and back to pigmy country! - Mo Gambo |
Robert and Tom Might I make a suggestion. Instead of posting posts that cross the line of attacking MG you construct posts that engage the topics or if you choose to talk about your designs do so in a way that invites good karma and civil discussions. We all have two ears you know and some will have less experience and some more depending on the testing we choose to do. In my case I look forward to talking about audio as a variable. When "doing" the variables there are no rights and wrongs as Geoff has tried to tell you (am I correct Geoff, I don’t want to speak for you). Robert and Tom saying your company has an absolute is the same as marginalizing your contributions to a variable subject. Or do you not think audio "is" a variable science? |
"MG has no clue how these devices work." Good luck with that one LOL. Hey did you happen to see MG's thread http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t440-talk-but-not-walk-an-audiophile-forum-case-study#8674 I see you guys are trying to prove your case by "Talking" on someone else's forum but see MG and Geoff learn by actually doing and then discussing what they have done. MG and Geoff disagree on some of the absolutes but have found a way to allow isolation and mechanical transfer to live under the same roof. As you can see on Michael's thread he and others have done empirical testing to all 3 Springs, Cones and Tuning Blocks. And not just one size fits all but perhaps a wider range of testing ever done before in HEA. Like with MG and Geoff we on this thread haven't seen StarSound take components down to the basic signal passing bones. Robert saying he likes big transformers obviously tells us on this thread you have not tested the placement of transformers in relationship to other parts hosting the audio signal. If this is indeed the case there are literally thousands of empirical listeners who have gone further than you. The proof is something you do gentlemen, not something you talk about as if you have done. Walking guys, we're talking about walking. |
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If I could explain it to the average person I would not have said it was difficult. Besides I already described why very low frequency seismic vibration is generally more deleterious to the sound than induced vibration. Try to keep up. Additionally, I'm not really in the mood to get into one of your patented what about this, what about that discussions. Get thee to Wikipedia! |
theaudiotweak I dont make springs or use them. By nature they restrict resonant energy from leaving a component or speaker and may even increase interference under a device in motion..such as a turntable and speaker. Tom What Robert and Co. doesn’t make is anything to prevent very low frequency seismic energy from coming up from the floor and entering the component. Which is really the primary problem. Since he cannot do it he and Tom have adopted the rather lame tactic of claiming isolation is impossible. Give me a break! Anybody can reduce induced energy. It‘s not rocket science. 🚀 The difficulty arises in reducing extremely low frequency seismic energy. Like LIGO demonstrated. What is happening here is a failure to understand - or pretending to misunderstand - what isolation even is or the function of springs. Or a willingness to learn. Those who don’t learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. |
@theaudiotweak GeoffI misunderstood your statement about "ours do," I guess I thought you were some sort of springsmith or coil Captain. Maybe you ought to try a set of Geoff's springs...he swears by them, but MG swears at them, and @jf47t (and/or Harold) swears that MG's springs are better. I have trouble keeping tabs on the Green Team and who plays which position. |