SUT help

Another Link from a broad range of experienced forum members making the case for Off Board SUT > MM Input a option in discussions on Phon's that will cost the price of a nearly new used vehicle.

@elliottbnewcombjr Your Statement:  

"SUTs are not supposed to have a sound, exactly the opposite,"

"Your MC stage of your Phono Stage IS A SUT."

Are these statements based as the outcome of personally experiencing a Broad Range of Phonostages in use, where MC Inputs, or as you describe ( On Board SUT's ) are assessed for how the end sound produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ?

Similarly, the SUT / Head Amp Off Board and connected to the MM Input. Are your comments made as the outcome of having personally experienced Broad Range of these configurations. Which have been assessed for how the end sound being produced by the system overall, impacts on your own unique preferences for produced sound ? 

My experiences of MC Inputs and Off Board SUT's used with the MM Input, leaves myself with the perception that a Richness of Tone will be added when a SUT is used with the MM Input. 

I do not class this as a unwanted perception, I am encouraging those interested to be aware there will be a perception of some type detected, and it their unique tolerance of the perceived presence, that will be influential in making a added device become an attractor or to be repelled.

One SUT experience is not a broad experience of SUT's and the influence a SUT can have is not likely to be realised from limited exposure to the devices.

I though my own Journey was concluded with SUT's, Head Amp's were of Interest, then along come Sculpture A, and SUT's are of real interest once more.  

Your MC stage of your Phono Stage IS A SUT.

ALL MC low signal in/MM strength out are SUTs.

Your Phono has a terrific set of optional Loading:

ModWright PH 9.0

MC Loading: 10-20-50-100-250-470

And, independent and adjustable gain is the holy grail IMO.

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IOW, you already have an EXCELLENT SUT

and, SUTs are not supposed to have a sound, exactly the opposite, just step it up without changing the sound of the cartridge or the sound of the MM Phono Stage.

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Additional Cartridges: the sound of any cartridge you have/get needs to get thru a SUT without alteration. I’d put money on the fact that your ModWright does just that.

Aside from researching/considering any cartridge's sound characteristics, which are ’preferred, not better’, I always encourage looking for technical specs: wide channel separation, and tight channel balance, the combo yields terrific imaging of the ’preferred’ cartridge sound.

@mmcgill829 As Stated, I have experienced many SUT's, a large selection of these on the home system, that are with retail Values of Approx' £300 - £2K and maybe even more expensive if listened to in other systems.

These SUT's are designs no longer produced, through to available designs.

Additionally, I have experiences SUT's that are produced using Tranx's referred to above and others, that have been utilised as a DIY Build.

As a result of Phonostage Bake Off's attended, I have experienced many Phon's used with a In Built MC Stage and a MM Stage with a SUT.

From a large range of experiences, I have not experienced too many SUT's I have thoroughly enjoyed and could live with.

Also when a SUT has been of real Interest, it is because it has produced something in the end sonic, that is much more wanted to be maintained than the MC Input can achieve.

As an individual with an all Valve System and a main Phon' being Valve Input / Valve Output design, along with Phon No 2 being a Valve Hybrid, I have selected SUT's that are in your description in the range of being Neutral. ( Richness being detected is a unique preference, it causes endless debate or blatant rejection, I've seen this regular in Group Assessments. One's own Get of the Bus point for a Tone is another's that is classed as best avoided).

The idea of having the Tranx's placed within the Phon' is an OK idea, but will be limiting to your experiencing SUT's or Head Amp's if they become a device of interest. 

The Sculpture A has been referred to above, I have been demo'd these in both Copper and Silver Coil Tranx's and have been so impressed, these are on my must try in the home system short list, not much gets on to that list today.

A thread about SUT's and produced by a Forum member who's posts are looked forward to by myself is attached.

@lewm That's a very good point!

In my opinion, if you are dissatisfied with the SUTs that are built into the Modwright, you ought to talk to Modwright about having them install a better pair of SUTs. You would have pretty much the same array of choices, you probably will save money because you don't have to pay for the box that houses the SUTs, you probably gain some advantage over any external SUTs in that you avoid another set of RCA connectors and wires with capacitance in the signal path, It's a win, win, win proposition.  After all, Modwright made their bones by modifying gear built by other companies; surely they can do the same for their own gear.

@theflattire interesting!

I'm definitely considering the Umami (though I also thought about the Etsuro Cobalt) but I struggle spending $4k (or $6k) on a cart that will have to be replaced every couple years due to wear. The trade in is a 30% discount toward a new one, but still. That's a pretty high recurring cost. Whereas something like a SUT if it offered any improvement lasts pretty much forever. That was my logic, at least. haha.

Side note, it's a bummer that Koetsu is no more. Good thing you got one while you still can!

There's a Bob's Sky10 on USAM right now.

1:10 is probably all you need.

I gotta say, I listened first through the MC side and then through the Hashimotos and I don't hear much difference.  Of course there is the gain.

Not listening for anything in particular, just seeing if anything sticks out.  Both ways throw sound out pretty far to the sides and my speakers are kinda close together.

I think at this level you are pretty maxed out.

I would probably spend the money on a cart before a SUT (of course I already got one).

I just got a used a Koetsu Black and it's a wow.  Get the Umami!

@theflattire Thanks for sharing. Pretty simple and clean inside.

@billstevenson Bob's is definitely an option too. Looks like full refunds accepted minus 10% restock fee for 2 weeks. Could be wise to start there since if I can't really discern any real difference or improvements I can just return it. Slightly poorer, but richer in experience.

The custom ones (like the HM-7 one) would definitely be going out on a limb.

Either “handy” or superfluous.

Here's the interior of mine.  

He uses the same chassis for all the Hashimoto transformers.

You can look at the HM-X also.  Same gain but a little less cost.

Someone else ordered from this person without the switching so it can be custom wired.

Bobs is good too. Proprietary Cinemags.

Heard good things about Finemet also.

You also should look at Bob's Devices.  His are excellent and I believe he might offer a return privilege.  10:1 would be a good ratio for what you want.  IMHO, any phono stage is improved when an SUT is inserted.  I just like the way they sound. My current favorite and newest phono stage is the current top offering from Conrad Johnson, the ART Phono.   At $28K it sounds marvelous either way, but I gravitate to using an SUT with it most of the time.  A Good SUT or two is handy to have.  You will not regret the acquisition.

@theflattire home&scitek on ebay? Interesting. Looks like they just use a kit basically.

@mmcgill829 

I got my Hashimotos on eBay from a Japanese seller.  I believe I paid around $1300.  He lists it for more but make an offer and he will discount it.  Made to order so it takes about a month.

I"ll try and do a A/B with/without tonight and let you know.

There are a lot of other SUTs I would consider.  I would try and stay around 1:10-1:15 because of the gain in the Modwright.  Maybe Ned Clayton (ebay) Cinemag 1254s.  I had those for a while and they were fine.  Half the cost of the Hashimoto.  I would have to consider what is better than the Lundahls?

@theflattire I think the Sound Tradition Live MC-10 uses HM-7s, but not totally sure. I can't find any info on it as far as if they are still made. The only pre-made SUTs I can find with HM-7 are Swissonor and they're something like $3300, which is a bit crazy. I do not have the equipment or skills (or confidence to not screw up) trying to make one myself.

I'm not expecting any earth-shattering improvements (mostly everything I'm doing with my system involves small tweaks) but if I end up with a notch up in performance for around $1000-1500, that's fairly cost-effective versus many other upgrades and tweaks!

I have a Modwright with the XT upgrades and use a Hashimoto HM-7.

I haven't checked it against the MC side since I did the upgrades but before it seemed to expand the soundstage some.  I think you mostly use a SUT to bypass an active gain stage.

The Lundahls in the Modwright are on the inexpensive side and Dan told me he chose them mainly for low gain since the PH9.0 already has tons of it.

Honestly I run the Hashimoto (1:15, PH9 at -6) mainly because I've always used them, back to my Darlington Labs days.  I'm betting there are tons of happy non SUT Ph9.0XT users out there!   I think if there's any difference it's small and nuanced would depend on the rest of your system and the cart.

I do like the extra gain sometimes as I do have some low, low MC carts. I don't run a pre and go  straight into my amp (2A3 set).

If there is any improvement, again I think it would be small and it depends on you whether or not it's worth it.

Oh - two others that have been mentioned to me in the past:

1. Sound Tradition Live MC-10 (but I don't believe these are still being made?)
2. Sculpture A mini nano

@lewm Thank you for that - nice and simple! Makes total sense. The only reason I've wanted to try one out is to see if it will improve soundstage width/depth. I love the Modwright stage and the MC input is very nice, but I've never tried a SUT, so curiosity is getting the better of me!

@pindac From what I gather, you're referring to a warm vs neutral vs bright/analytical? I usually prefer close to neutral. Musical without being too warm and muddy, but also without being TOO bright and analytical to where it can cause listening fatigue.

Considering my setup is almost all tube, with SET amplification, I need to stay away from adding much coloration earlier in the chain.

SUT's that are a match to a Cart' are not all equal in their ability to impact on the end Sonic.

On previous occasion within this forum, I have made it known different Brands / Models / Transformer Types used for DIY Builds are able to create the perception of a Rich Tone.

The scale of Rich Tone can be perceived from a Hint of Rich, through to a very loose overbearing Lower Frequency Bloom.

From experience of use I am Wed to SUT's that I perceive as being almost lean, a Very small hint of Rich end of the scale.

A Head Amp is able to be perceived as being Lean and I do like these in use as an alternative presentation.

As Rich Tone can easily become a detractor and unwanted, have you an idea of how much of a Rich Tone you would like to be exposed to during your listening periods ? 

This is very simple, besides the fact that you don't need a SUT.  You can use any SUT with a 1:10 step up ratio.  That means the signal voltage will be increased 10-fold, to 4mV with either of the two cartridges in question. That is easily enough signal voltage to drive the MM section of your Modwright, set to even 40db of gain.  If that seems a tad lean, you can use the 46db setting, but the 52 db setting is definitely overkill.  (The phono gain needed is somewhat dependent upon the gain added by your linestage, if you use an active linestage, the input sensitivity of the amplifier, and the efficiency of the speakers.) The load seen by the cartridge is the input resistor of the MM phono stage divided by the square of the turns ratio.  If the Modwright has a  typical 47K resistor at its MM inputs, then the cartridge sees 470 ohms (47,000 divided by100).  That is absolutely fine for either cartridge.  This is all you need to know.