2. analog
  3. 1219610381

Stylus shape and skating force

I've been owning a new Ortofon 2M Bronze for few days, and I owned an Ortofon 530 Mk II. Plus, I had the chance to try a couple of Clearaudio's (Beta and Virtuoso) and another bunch of entry level cartridges.
The latest have elliptical stili, while both the Ortofons have fine-line stili.
My turntable is a Clearaudio Emotion with Satisfy toneram (sapphire/ceramic bearings and magnetic antiskating).

The thing is: while Ortofon's fine-line stylus retrieves a higher level of details and keeps distortion to a minimum it appears to have a strange behavior.
A conical or elliptical stylus, when placed on a blank record (or at the beginning, in the lead-in area), behaves predictably: it just sits there floating in and out according to the antiskaing settings.

My Ortofon's, instead, literally "flies" towards the spindle, no matter how much antiskating I set. In fact, I can set it to a maximum and it will just slow the tonearm motion of a small fraction.
The problem comes when it's time to play a record: if the stylus is not lowered right into a groove, it's pushed so hard towards the center that it will skip even the first grooves for a couple of millimeters! So, instead of lowering it at the beginning of the record, and wait for the lead-in to make its job, I have to take great care and place it over the first grooves of the music. Which means I loose the first seconds of music. Quite annoying...

Now you might argue: you need to add more antiskating than allowed by your tonearm.
Not really. It tracks to 15 mN and according to the tonearm manual the antiskating has to be set to a minimum. My ears suggest me the same thing and even a test record tells me that maximum antiskating is totally wrong and the right value is close to the minimum (the test records, as usual, wants a bit more).

So what I have is a stylus that when into the grooves tracks wonderfully and is subjected to a regular skating force, but on unmodulated surfaces "feels" an enormous force leading it to the centre.

Anyone noticed the same problems with exotic stili, or can give me some hints on the possible causes (I don't think there's a solution..)?

Thank you in advance
nebelmeer80
9 responses Add your response
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Use of the Shure test record is the easiest (if you got one) and best way to set both VTF and antiskating. You achieve settings which minimize audible distortion. What more could you want?
larryi
3,983 posts
 
The main reason your stylus shoots toward rapidly inward when you set it down is because the record has a thick bead on the edge. The stylus is literally falling off that bead (toward the label) and its momentum is carrying it too far inward. It sounds counter intuitive, but to avoid missing the first few notes of music, you should set the stylus down well inside of the bead, not as far toward the edge as possible. It appears you are now doing this, but setting it down just a bit too much inward. I would not try to set the stylus down near the edge, and I would also do what others have suggested, which is to cue the stylus much more slowly. Both slow cuing and not setting the stylus down too far toward the edge should cure your problem; if not, you have some other setup problem (not level, wrong setting of downforce, etc.

Aside from using specialized test gear, to me, the best way to set antiskating is to use something like the old Shure test records that have monophonic music being played at progressively higher volume. At some level, the cartridge will start to mistrack (signal becomes sibilant and broken up). Typically, the side of the groove experiencing lower tracking force will break up first or more severely. If it is the right channel that is mistracking the most, you would INCREASE antiskating in order to bring the right side of the stylus into better contact with the groove. If the left is mistracking more, than antiskating has been set too high. Using this approach, I almost always have found that tonearm manufacturer recommendations for antiskating force are too high -- you usually need less than recommended.
kirkus
502 posts
 
The problem is that Ortofon's quality, in my experience, isn't really up to their name. 2 out of 2 cartridges where delivered with a bent cantilever (the sound was dreadful) and had to return them...
That's really sad to hear. I used to set a lot of new Ortofons, and I would check each one under a microscope before it was installed . . . and 10-15 years ago, their quality control was way above average. The company has changed ownership and management in recent years, so maybe things have slipped, or you have simply had bad luck. Audio-Technica was about average, I would send back about one in every five AT-OC9s that I saw. Shure was horrible . . . I remember sending back 6 or 7 out of an order of ten V15-Vs at one point. These were mainly bent or twisted cantilevers, or styli that were mounted crooked on the end.

FWIW, the Ortofon fineline stylus is a really nice profile, so (QC issues aside) it should deliver excellent tracking performance for a long time.
nebelmeer80 OP
4 posts
 
Thanks to all those who replied, expecially to Kirkus and Doudgeacon who confirmed my thoughts.
I always thought that setting the antiskating on an ungrooved record was just useless, for the reasons you explained, but you know... after the millionth "tips & tricks for analogue" suggesting that, I just gave it a try. I can't really understand why so many people use and suggest that method.
I reckoned that it must have been related to the stylus shape, though I was thinking to a wider tip rather than sharper (wider = more contact surface -> more friction)
But what really matters is that we came to the conclusion that it's just the stylus shape. So I will live with it.
The problem is that Ortofon's quality, in my experience, isn't really up to their name. 2 out of 2 cartridges where delivered with a bent cantilever (the sound was dreadful) and had to return them... so in this situation when something appears weird it's difficult to understand if it is another defect or not.
Plus their stupid customer care policy which demands all the communication to the local distributor (who has no knowlegde of what he's selling) ain't of help at all.
This will probably be my last Ortofon, I'm looking for an Audiotechnica with Microline stylus as a replacement when its time will come.

Again, thanks to all and have a nice day
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Agree completely with Kirkus and Audiofeil.

It doesn't sound to me like anything's wrong with your rig or your setup, though it can't hurt to check. Everything you described is normal, including the need for care when cueing.

Your new stylus probably has a sharper point than the previous ones, so it experiences more friction when lowered onto a spinning *flat* surface. More friction = more skating = ZOOM! goes the arm inward. Perfectly normal and perfectly irrelevant, as Kirkus explained.

BTW, your ears are correct - trust them. The less A/S you can use (consistent with clean tracking) the better your cartridge can do its job. A/S pulls outward on the arm, which presses the cantilever against the cartridge's soft, internal suspension. One guess how that effects HF extension, speed and the cantilever's ability to respond to the subtler waveforms in the groove. (Excessive VTF has the same effect, so you should set that by ear as well.)
audiofeil
4,011 posts
 
Try lowering the tonearm slower.

It will give you more control of the stylus when it first makes contact with the record.
kirkus
502 posts
 
The "ungrooved record test" has absolutely no correlation to a proper anti-skating force . . . actually, it has absolutely no meaning at all, especially with an elliptical or fine-line stylus.

This is because any reasonably modern elliptical stylus profile doesn't actually touch the groove on its very point, rather, there are two discrete points on the sides where it contacts each groove wall . . . these are plainly visible when the stylus is viewed under a microscope. So when you stick it on a record that has no grooves, the part of the stylus that's touching the record is NOT what's used when playing the record, so it's tracking behavior is completely indeterminate.

The best way to fine-tune antiskating with a test record is by checking trackability - both channels should reach their limits of distortion-free tracking performance at the same horizontal groove velocity. I'm assuming that this is what you're doing.

With regards to cueing difficulty -- I do think that some cartridge/tonearm combinations are more fussy than others, but I think that it's more about the interaction of many different parameters (i.e. cartridge compliance vs. tonearm mass) in addition to stylus profile and anti-skating adjustment. Of course, different shapes in the profile of the record's edge also have an effect, and even the grippiness of the rubber on the little shoe used in the tonearm's cueing device (if used) can make this more difficult.

I will echo the others' advice and re-check your setup parameters, but if it's all spot on and everything sounds great, then you might just need to cue by hand.
stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,468 posts
 
I think your cartridge is not aligned properly. Not only does the stylus have to touch the alignment overhang dots, but it must be square to the overhang arc. Read the posts on the MINT protractor.
joelv's avatar
joelv
103 posts
 
I know these sound obvious, but I'm going to list them just in case you haven't double checked :)

1) Is your turntable level? I'd check that first.

2) If it is level, it might be that the tracking force is set too low. Did you re-balance and re-set the the tracking force of your tonearm after swapping out cartridges?

Good luck!
Log in to respond
More to discover
80x80
Palmer Audio 2.5 Turntable
80x80
Lenco TJN
80x80
J.Sikora Reference