Stylus Rake Angle

From what I understand, the cutter head angle may be a particular value, but the resulting profile on the record is different due to the springiness of the lacquer material which varies with temperature, such that the resulting optimum SRA is not that at which the record was cut. Variations in modulation mean that the cutter has to dig more or less deep, thus varying temperature and hence the profile, so that an optimum SRA at one point on the side may not be so at another. Would that be correct?

No- but that is a common myth to which I subscribed before I started working with the cutting lathe. There really isn't 'springiness' in the lacquer surface. When modulation varies, the groove depth stays the same and the two can be set independently. The heated stylus cuts through the lacquer like butter if its set correctly - if not you get surface noise.

Csontos, I have been flying kites for some time :) seriously! But you are correct- if you can set SRA/VTA on the fly. LPs thicknesses vary as do the cutter angles. There is no other way to do it IMO. I don't think the thing you mentioned about standard cutting angles is correct though. What I have seen is that the cutter stylus needs a slight amount of rake (varies with each one as I said) and its really in the 1-4 degree range off of exactly perpendicular to the LP surface, so about 91-94 degrees. What we really don't know because no-one has really studied it is whether or not the best SRA position in playback is actually the same as the cutterhead was set to... I suspect that that varies with the individual cartridge.

There actually is a standard cutting angle. It was changed from 15 degrees in the '60's, to 20 in the '70's. I think you've reiterated the pertinent points I've already made. However my conclusion is still that the best compromise is the ability to adjust SRA on the fly. That way the manufacturers and cutting engineers can go fly a kite:)

John, What do you think is meant by the first sentence in that article you referenced?:

"Adjusting the cartridge for optimum SRA may alter the VTA away from optimum. Or vice versa."

I usually think of VTA as a useful surrogate for SRA, but I guess that a separate function of VTA, apart from its direct effect on SRA, would be to alter the angular relationships between magnets and coils, but that is a major function of VTF. The cantilever/magnets/coils are fixed in space except for the effect of VTF to re-position the cantilever, if too much or too little VTF is applied. Which takes me back to my question; what are they talking about?

Raul

The analog medium is full of imperfections and we have to deal with in the best way we can. Sometimes I think is an endless enterprise.

At the end each one of us have its own targets and MUSIC sound reproduction and each one trade offs choosed are related to achieve those targets.

Yes, I agree all is compromise with regard to set up, especially with regard to SRA and VTA which are decided by the cartridge manufacturer. It is up to each listener to decide what is acceptable to them, and to be aware of why it is so.

Csontos

For all intents and purposes, VTA and SRA are virtually the same thing because it is impossible to perfectly maintain standardized specs. This is why the only way to match the two is by 'listening' and at best, listening on the fly.

The issue isn't that there is or isn't a standard (if recommending anything between 15 and 25 degrees for VTA constitutes a useful standard), but that it appears that the SRA parameter is variable depending on the mechanics of record cutting, and is at best an approximation of between 91 and 95 degrees, and can vary across a record. It also varies with downforce, and with offset, which in turn depends on chosen geometry and the accuracy with which it is set.

Until someone makes a headshell which allows variation of VTA/SRA without altering overhang and downforce, then those will be factors...

More info - old articles- here

.

Here's an interesting and somewhat revealing take on Micheal Fremer's TT set up technique.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ7nAdITdk

I'm still not convinced that SRA should match VTA(cutting stylus) necessarily. What shape is the cutting stylus vs. the many different playback styli? How many different cutting stylus shapes are there?

Dear friends: IMHO speculations and theory is something that we have to prove.

Any one of you ( with Barwald or Löfgren B today cartridge/tonearm alignment. ) can make the next test:

simple make a change ( new set up ) to either of those alignments where you just need to make a change in overhang ( offset angle is negligible. Overhang less than 0.4mm. ) and listen carefully on both set ups with very good ( in deep ) know LP tracks at three LP surface positions: between null points, outer grooves ( out side null point. ) and inner grooves ( outside null point. ) .

You will now and understand why Löfgren calculated ( 50+ years ago. ) two alignment solutions: A ( Baerwald ) and B. Of course you can read his white papers somewhere in VE.

If you can try to find out tracks with high bass content ( more easy ) and listen the transient response on both set ups looking for differences and then share with us your experiences.

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Well, to be honest, I find that optimizing SRA yields a higher degree of improvement the closer to optimum the positions of the null points are. Not sure what the numbers are, but overhang is responsible for their correct location.

Of course that we can take the attitude to don't care about at all and only listen. Nothing wrong with that.

R.

Dear Lewm: ++++ " then it seems to me that small errors in overhang (say +/-1.0mm, but I would have to do the geometry before settling on that margin) can be tolerated. " ++++

as I posted we have to choose our trade offs, this is each one privilege. For you 1.0mm could be tolerated and maybe for me even 1.5 mm too and as JG posted there will be an offset angle/linear ( and the like. )deviation too.

Imperfect world!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear John_gordon: It's unfortunate that with a pivoted tonearm a " right " set up cartridge is almost not posible at all. All the set up parameters are interrelated and any change on one of them affect the others and we have to reset it, tiresome.

The best we can do is to choose the best trade-offs and enjoy the MUSIC and when choosed try to stay inside those trade offs all the time because when we change the null points and accepted we are changed almost all: mainly distortion levels that means new trade offs.

The analog medium is full of imperfections and we have to deal with in the best way we can. Sometimes I think is an endless enterprise.

At the end each one of us have its own targets and MUSIC sound reproduction and each one trade offs choosed are related to achieve those targets.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

What I would really like to see is a test record where each track of the same music be cut at different and documented SRA angles, plus a final track (of the same music) where the cutting SRA is constantly varied.

Then during playback and with our own SRA fixed, it should be interesting to try to hear whatever variations/distortions there may be. This will only serve to show what we should be listening for when playing back our regular records vis a vis our quest to set our SRA.

Optimal SRA is an average based on the average 20 degree cutting angle standard, give or take. Temperature becomes moot as soon as changes in depth are introduced by modulation since that is accompanied by groove angle changes anyway. However as Atmasphere pointed out, average depth changes at the hands of the engineer and imperfect tooling set-up will certainly require a change in SRA. VTA refers to cutting angle. For all intents and purposes, VTA and SRA are virtually the same thing because it is impossible to perfectly maintain standardized specs. This is why the only way to match the two is by 'listening' and at best, listening on the fly.

With regard to the distinction between SRA and VTA, there is also an equivalent distortion to Horizontal Tracking Error if the VTA is not that at which the record was cut. This Vertical Tracking Error is distinct from SRA and will influence tracking performance.

So with any given cartridge optimising SRA may mean VTA being compromised...

Atmasphere, you said:

As the stylus wears, sometimes you have to make little adjustments, like the stylus temperature. Funny thing- it cuts a slightly different angle depending on the temperature. Some LPs don't have very much in the way of dynamics so you can change groove depth a bit to allow for more time on the LP, conversely if something has a lot of dynamics or out of phase bass, you might cut a little deeper. So groove depth affects stylus angle too.

From what I understand, the cutter head angle may be a particular value, but the resulting profile on the record is different due to the springiness of the lacquer material which varies with temperature, such that the resulting optimum SRA is not that at which the record was cut. Variations in modulation mean that the cutter has to dig more or less deep, thus varying temperature and hence the profile, so that an optimum SRA at one point on the side may not be so at another. Would that be correct?

Lewm, you said:

A small error in overhang, assuming P2S is correct, will only move those two points of tangency by small distances in or out on the radius of the LP. So long as those two points remain on the playing surface, what is lost?

As you say, the important thing is the position of the two null points. Not because of their tangency, but because they define the distortion. As they become further apart, there is increasing distortion across the middle of the side. Closer together, the extremes are tracked with more distortion, particularly towards the centre. Small changes in null position make little difference.

However, that presupposes that the offset angle is set correctly which, rather than overhang or P2S, is , in my experience, the most difficult aspect of set up.

.

You answered your own question.

On the subject of stylus overhang:
If the pivot to spindle distance is set exactly right, meaning +/-0.3mm of the recommended, because that is the best anyone can do, then it seems to me that small errors in overhang (say +/-1.0mm, but I would have to do the geometry before settling on that margin) can be tolerated.
Reason: None of the accepted tonearm geometries achieve more than two points on the arc of the stylus tip where there is tangency. The various algorithms differ only in the locations of these two points along the LP surface (and they also do differ in the amounts of tracking error at other points along the way, but I am not debating that here). A small error in overhang, assuming P2S is correct, will only move those two points of tangency by small distances in or out on the radius of the LP. So long as those two points remain on the playing surface, what is lost?

I don't get this "slur" thing. The stylus is rigid/ inflexible and so whether the tip or farther up encounters the groove wall first, a deflection occurs. I'm not saying none of this makes a difference but if a guy who cuts lacquers for a living and a guy who builds some of the most coveted carts in the world says move along, there is nothing to see here, then maybe we should believe them.

Doug and Csontos seem to have the way of it.

The cutting stylus on an LP cutterhead only does about 10 hours before it needs to be replaced. You'd think they were all exactly the same but after replacement you wind up resetting a lot of parameters on the cutterhead. Tiny little adjustments can have a huge effect on the groove you cut, so its anything but cut and dried. I find the talk about SRA a bit amusing as a result.

As the stylus wears, sometimes you have to make little adjustments, like the stylus temperature. Funny thing- it cuts a slightly different angle depending on the temperature. Some LPs don't have very much in the way of dynamics so you can change groove depth a bit to allow for more time on the LP, conversely if something has a lot of dynamics or out of phase bass, you might cut a little deeper. So groove depth affects stylus angle too.

Bottom line: don't get too upset about it. Its more important for the mastering engineer to cut a good groove than it is to get it exactly at 92 degrees. You are never going to be too far off either- the stylus won't cut right if its a few degrees off... trust me on this one- there are far more important things to worry about :)

Dear Lewm/Peter/all: Nothing changed on my mind about, overhang always is important. Things are that for many people overhang changes " makes " almost no diference on the quality performance and not because it does not makes a difference but because they are unaware of how the system sounds when overhang is off. It's not easy to be aware if you don't know what to look for: if you are not trained to do it.
In the other side in the very first time/moment that the cartridge stylus hit the LP grooves the overhang/VTA/SRA/VTF suffer minute changes due to the imperfect medium and maybe because of this I could said it has not " anal importance ".

This is something similar as the RIAA eq. deviation where I supported and support the critical importance on accuracy.
I say that a prety decent RIAA eq. frequency deviation of +,- 0.1 db is not enough and that a RIAA frequency deviation of: +,- 0.015 db is better and we can hear the difference IF we are trained to know what to look for during playback.

Now, all cartridge/tonearm alignment parameters are important and critical to achieve a top quality performance and we have to take care on each one if we want that the cartridge can shows us at its top performance.

In a pivoted tonearm the cartridge alignment start when we choose the the type of alignment: Baerwald, Löfgren B , Stevenson and the like.

Löfgren defined the geometry equations for a precise cartridge set up where we have mainly to know the overhang and offset angle ( between other parameters. ).

This is a sin-equanon the very first step for the cartridge can shows it at its best.
So IMHO overhang and offset angle ( for a choosed alignment geometry equations. ) must stay with out changes when other cartridge set up changes.

The different alignment equations is a trade offs " game " depending on what we want/prefer on distortions level between null points and outside null points at outer and inner LP grooves.

The alignment equations we choose optimize those distortions inside that choosed alignment in a way that any tyni deviation on the overhang and/or in offset angle cartridge set up produce a different kind of distortions to the ones choosed with different trade offs.

That we can hear or not the new distortions/trade offs does not invalidate the importance that on each alignment the name of the game is: accuracy that must stay that way always.

The target/main subject of any cartridge/tonearm geometry alignment is to do it as accurate as we can because we want optimized/lower distortions.
Tyni deviations from that " accuracy " increment in exponential way those distortions so we don't want to have this.

We all are very sensible to VTA/SRA changes and changes on Azymuth because we are aware of the differences on sound with these changes on cartridge set up and because we are accustom to do it and to hear the changes in performance when the overhang changes we are really unaware on how we detect it or how we listen it.

We have to learn trhough a training to be aware of it.

As I said, it's tiresoem/nightmare to change overhang each time we need it ( for VTA/SRA/VTF ) but we need to do it especially when we are doing cartridge comparisons or when we are fine tunning a cartridge.

Maybe some of you could remember that several times I insisted to have a proved and repetable evaluation/set up process that can permit to be aware of different kind of distortions and quality performance levels and know teh why's.

A easy way to be aware of overhang misalignment is to choose a well know LP tracks with bass range content and listen the system transiente response at different overhang values. You will be surprised on what you can hear down there those overhang changes.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Raul, Perhaps I am mistaken but was there not a time when you expressed the opinion that small errors in overhang do not make much audible difference, may not even be "important"? I thought that was your position vis a vis that of Dertonearm et al, who was arguing the opposite. If my memory is accurate, what made you change your mind by 180 degrees?

Raul, when one slides a cartridge in the headshell 0.3mm to make a very slight change in overhang because the SRA has been adjusted, how does one achieve this tiny move without rotating the cartridge about its ZENITH angle? With some stylii profiles, proper ZENITH alignment matters a lot. Of course it changes over the length of the LP and is only truly tangent at the two null points.

And, if overhang changes, does this not also require a tiny change in ZENITH so that the stylus maintains proper alignment (true tangence) at the two null points?

I did compare the alignment results between the SME protractor and my custom MINT LP arc type protractor and found that the overhang was slightly different. I can't say which is more correct, but the MINT is more accurate and allows for more precise results. I did find the music sounded better also, though this may just be that "I like it" more with the MINT.

One issue with the MINT is that the thickness of the glass is not the same as every LP thickness, so overhang is only correct with LPs that happen to be the same thickness as the glass. Overhang for other thickness LPs will necessarily be different.

If, as you contend, that overhang is more critical than SRA, what do you think about all of the people who adjust VTA for each LP without also adjusting overhang? The people with whom I have spoken feel that proper SRA is more critical than perfect overhang, so they don't bother to adjust both with each LP. Could you imagine the time involved to do both for every LP?

I'm only asking these questions to learn more about the subject. I'm very curious about how each of these adjustments effects the others and really which is the most critical. I, for one, adjust my arm and cartridge to be the best compromise with a group of my favorite and most familiar LPs. I don't have the patience to adjust settings for different LPs.

Dear Csontos: I understand your point an opinions and I can tell you that's really tiresome to make overhang changes everytime but IMHO is necessary. Of course is up to each one of us do it or not: our each one privilege.

I really appreciated all your posts. Only under a friendly discussion we can improve our self.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul, My intention was not to present my point of view as fact, but just that, my point of view in a discussion. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm speaking from my owm personal experience. I don't have instruments to measure such tiny variations in adjustment. I'm a serious tweaker who can't leave good enough alone so I'm well aware of the importance of all of the factors involved. It's just that all things being equal, sra is the most convincing variable to improvement I have so far experienced in the last 30+ years. Once I settle on sra, re-doing overhang doesn't change the sound appreciably well enough for me to notice. Could be a matter of not having the ability to make such a small adjustment on my part. I make final sra adjustments with a sheet of paper or even finer with one side of a plastic record jacket trimmed and placed under the mat. Or should I say 'removed' as I start with a few there already.

At the end the subject is to be aware when the cartridge/tonearm overall set up is right or wrong and why.

R.

Dear Dougdeacon: I remember very clear when I was hosted at your place enjoying MUSIC and knowing both of you love for MUSIC and accurate ears ( my sincere regards for both of you. ).

++++ " I find this harder to hear than timing errors in fundamental vs. harmonics, but Paul finds it easier. " ++++

even that you are speculating on that " timing " I think that any one of us have their own way to to " kill the mouse ".

I'm accustom/trained to look for Dynamics at both frequency extremes looking for accuracy.
Dynamics is a word that involve almost everyhing in a reproduced sound: live or recorded, and through Dynamics evaluation in a recording transient response is critical as is critical each one overall knowledge level and audio system kind of resolution.

I think that all we know the importance to have the " precise " SRA set up.

I want to insist again thet OVERHANG is even more critical than SRA for a better quality performance. If we don't care about Overhang changes when VTA/SRA changes or VTF changes then where we leave the cartridge/tonearm accurate alignment where we invested on several protractors and choosed a specific alignment only to have a precise/accurate set up that we all always are looking for?!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Csontos and Peterayers hear exactly what I hear.

***
Lewm, sorry we haven't explained this in a way that helps you understand this as a timing issue. Thanks for hanging in there.

Of course you're right that the spinning platter controls the timing of the MUSIC. If a TT runs slow or fast, the pace and pitch of the music will be off. If TT speed varies, we hear pitch shifts.

With SRA we're talking about a timing on a much smaller scale: the *relative* timing of the component parts of a SINGLE NOTE. This kind of timing has nothing to do with pitch or rhythm. TT speed does not affect it, SRA changes alter the internal timing of each note even when TT speed is perfect. In fact, they're easier to hear on a TT that maintains highly accurate speed.

Peter wrote,

If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high

I think he got the arm positions reversed, but the effects he described are exactly what I hear.

As for a mechanism to explain this, I can only offer conjecture.

Fact: the cutting stylus had *some* specific SRA. This results in a unique cross-section for each and every complex set of groove modulations that make up what we call a "sound".

Assumption: to trace each cross-section exactly, the playback stylus must have the same SRA.

If the arm is too high at the pivot, the tip of the stylus will encounter each modulation before the the top of the stylus does, ie, too early. If the arm is too low at the pivot, the tip of the stylus will be slightly behind the top of the stylus, ie, too late. In either case, the stylus will "slur" across the modulation instead of encountering each part of it simultaneously.

If the playback stylus "slurs" across each modulation rather than tracing it *exactly* as cut, the aural effect is that harmonics arrive either too early or too late RELATIVE TO their fundamental.

I would not argue that this is necessarily what is occuring, but this is what it sounds like.

***
Raul mentioned dynamics. Optimal SRA provides optimal micro-dynamics. If the playback styles traces each modulation as cleanly as possible, cantilever excursions will match the path of the cutting head as closely as possible. To the extend the playback stylus "slurs" across modulations, cantilever excursions will be reduced and slurred in time, reducing dynamics.

I find this harder to hear than timing errors in fundamental vs. harmonics, but Paul finds it easier. With regard to SRA changes, I believe he and Raul hear similar things.

Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++

I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".

I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.

+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++

IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.

Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.

The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:

using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.

Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Chill out. Just a little audiophile humor on a subject with turntable tonearm/cartridge rake angle that a lot of people take WAY to seriously. Yes, I have a turntable. Had one for several decades and found a lot of other adjustments that are far more important than rake angle.

Mr. M.... what is the problem that is caused by the Vandersteens?

Stringreen. I know what your problem is. It's the Vandersteens!

Yes, but "timing" per se is the job of the turntable. The turntable provides the "X-axis" for the music, which is time. Who could argue that correct time is not important? Not me.

Dear Csontos: Yes, because transiente performance is main part of Dynamics in live music and recorded one.

As you said: " poor or good " transients, that's " all ".

R.

Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++

I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".

I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.

+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++

IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.

Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.

The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:

using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.

Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Good 'transient' performance is always easily distinguishable from poor transient performance. It really is the final goal and distinguishable difference we hear when successfully correcting set-up errors. It's not a matter of our ability to isolate first order harmonics when timing is right. It's a matter of the natural ability of our brain to recognize when it's not. It's when we hear the difference that we then recognize correct timing in comparison.

Dear Csontos: +++++ " If you guys claim you will see a change in overhang from a minute SRA adjustment................then it's an inherent fault of the system because of the vinyl........... But I'm not so sure that this is relevant to playback. " +++++

I think you can't see it but you can hear it and no it's not an " inherent fault of the system ".

You posted that don not know if it's relevant during playback so you are speculating only with out any fact.

You can find out facts that can confirm or not what you are posting if you take the time o make some tests in your audio system, something like: change by 0.3 mm your today cartridge/tonearm overhang ( right at the headshell. ) and listen.
IMHO if you have a good audio system set up and good system resolution and you are aware how sounds distortions for a wrong overhang then you will hear that with that overhang 0.3 mm. changed the sound is " different ".

Example, if we change from Baerwald to Löfgreeen B set up we can hear the sound differences even that the only change on those geometry set up is only on overhang ( less than 0.5 mm. ).

Audiophiles that today use a better protractor than the one they used for cartridge/tonearm set up can attest that they can hear the differences for the better even that the change in overhang was minite against what they have it.
Almost every person that now are using the Mint LP protractor can tell you that those minute overhang changes makes a difference for the better. Accuracy always make a difference.

So, I think you have to make some tests about and then come back here to share your experiences before more speculations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

SRA/VTA adjustment requires overhang adjustment. This point has been mentioned by some and glossed over by others. Here is Judith Spotheim's take from her setup instructions at page 20 for her 1990's The SpJ Arm (which allows for VTA & overhang adjustment by micrometers):

"Certain audible improvements achieved by adjusting VTA without compensatory adjustment of overhang are actually nothing more than the manipulation of the stylus tip location into the vicinity of a more accurate overhang setting. To properly adjust VTA away from the reference point, it is necessary to also adjust the overhang..."

"Adjusting for the discrepancy in the overhang brought by VTA alteration of 2.5 degrees (with an effective length of 244 mm) requires moving the arm's pivot point 1 mm forward....(An error of 2mm in overhang can increase tracking error distortion by 300%!)"

None of you explained the mechanism, only why it is a good thing. I agree it is a good thing. After thinking about it last night (what I do in the dark before sleep), I decided maybe it has to do with how music is encoded in the groove vis how the stylus contacts the groove and is thus able to translate physical undulations in the groove into an audio signal. The relation between the stylus geometry and those undulations might be the critical factor. I could imagine how that might effect what some would call "timing". But I don't think it's really timing by the formal definition of same.

Also, I commend you (plural) and anyone else who can confidently distinguish first order harmonic tones from the fundamental. As a (part-time amateur) singer, I can tell you that is no easy thing even in a live venue. The brain doesn't really care a lot about that first octave of tonal difference. (Why sometimes if my pianist starts out an octave too high, I will go right along with him, until I realize that the high notes are going to be out of my vocal range.)

Dear Lewm: I think ( I'm not an expert on that. ) that timing could be a not so good term/word to apply on the subject.

Harmonics are a development from the fundamental and in a home audio system the quality of the fundamental during playback depends on tyhe transient response that depends on the " right " whole cartridge set up. Different transient response gives different sound reproduction of fundamental/harmonics that change the dynamics we perceive.

Now, as I posted: when you are " there " you just know at once.
Timing is not easy to explain because there are several parameters that affect transient response not only VTA/SRA. What's important is to understand the whole subject an the importance of accurate cartridge/tonearm/LP set up.

Btw, any one of you read it ( from audiophiles or reviewers. ) something like: " SRA on the fly " instead " VTA on the fly " ( related to tonearm. )?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

This is exactly what my experience is. Let's say we're starting at 90 degrees. If you guys claim you will see a change in overhang from a minute SRA adjustment, Because that's all it takes to go from one side to the other, then it's an inherent fault of the system because of the vinyl. The only way this can be overcome is by incorporating an adjustment to raise and lower the platter itself. However, this still does not deal with the tooling issue. But I'm not so sure that this is relevant to playback.

I think of it like this: If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high.

This is roughly how Doug described it to me and it corresponds to what I hear. I can see how this could be described as a tonal shift or emphasis between the high and low frequencies.

Peter et al, If you hear an effect of VTA on timing, I don't doubt it. I just wonder why that would be so. I certainly believe that VTA adjustment makes a difference, and I do pay attention to it in a non-anal way. However, I never thought about it in the way stated or inferred by Frank Schroeder. If there is substance to it, it's interesting to me.

Using my MINT LP arc protractor, it is very clear that changes in VTA (SRA)
alter overhang. It is more severe at the outer edge than at the inner grooves
because of the trace of the arc. IOW, the variance away from the arc is
greatest at the beginning of the LP.

In my system, this is audible. The MINT is extremely precise, assuming that it
was ordered correctly with the right pivot to stylus distance, or effective
length.

Now the Mint glass thickness is different from the various LP thicknesses, and
thus overhang changes slightly with different LP thicknesses.

Regarding the timing of the note when adjusting VTA, I think Schroeder is
talking about the harmonics not arriving before or simultaneously to the
fundamental. IOW, the note's fundamental (frequency?) should be heard first,
followed by its harmonics with a natural sounding delay. This is pretty easy
to hear with a mandolin or harpsichord pluck. If the timing of that pluck is
off, the VTA is off. I think this is his and DougDeacon's point.

Csontos, This is easy to test for yourself. Just check your overhang after you change SRA. I've done this many times and you might be surprised how much it moves. The only instance it wont change is if you started out with tail up and then changed to tail down the exact amount from level that you were with tail up. This is because at level your overhang will be the farthest. Going tail down or up from level will shorten your overhang.

I agree Raul. I think it is worth resetting overhang after changing in SRA. Especially if you moved it allot.

Dear Lewm: I posted here:

++++ " IMHO DYNAMICS is the main live MUSIC characteristic......... Precision, definition, accuracy, velocity and natural coloration and agresiveness are part of changes on dynamics........ Rythmum is another characteristic of live music. Dynamics affect it. " ++++

Main part of that dynamics is related to transient performance ( as Csontos posted. ) and time decay and part of that transient response is related to stylus-groove contact where VTA/SRA as azymuth, overhang and cartridge owns tracking habilities define it quality level.

Now, when all those cartridge/tonearm parameters are in " perfect " relationship in the set up: you just will know it even if you don't know nothing about " fundamental, harmonics or timing " but know how live music sounds in a near field experiences.

Of course that we can't even the near field live MUSIC event because in a live MUSIC event there is nothing that " filter "/degrade/modified/obstacle in between you and the MUSIC source but the AIR. Here is the magic!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Timing is referred to as a definition of transient performance as it relates to the stylus/groove contact point. The narrower the better, 'perpendicular to the apex'...or so. Hence, the 92 degree figure.

Start with a parallel arm and set overhang. I'm willing to wager that if you then set SRA on the fly, you will not find any measurable change in overhang. Granted, at or near that 90 degree standard.

"Adjust for proper timing between fundamental and harmonics."
Since it came from Frank Schroeder, who is widely regarded as a guru in all matters vinyl, this simple statement sounds brilliant and true. Now, will someone please tell me how "timing" is affected by SRA? I thought I knew that timing was the job of the turntable. Perhaps what is meant is that when proper tonal balance is achieved (by optimal adjustment of SRA/VTA) then harmonics are more naturally portrayed, which may give one a sense of better time-dependent relationships. (I don't really even like this, my own, explanation.) But when a guru speaks, the faithful must struggle to understand.

My difficulty understanding Mr. Schroeder's statement (which you all seem to accept as gospel) reminds me of a well worn anecdote about an all-knowing Buddhist monk who lives high in the Himalayas. A group of his acolytes struggle for months through deprivation and hardship, climbing to reach his lair, whereupon they ask him, "Oh great one, please tell us, what is the meaning of life?" His response: "A wet bird never flies at night."

Dear Sarcher30/friends: For years audiophiles talked of VTA and almost never of SRA. When making adjustments at the pivot of tonearms almost all refered that adjustments as VTA, even today many speaks as VTA.

In reality noithing " wrong " with that because at the end what we want is to understand what is happening with that kind of adjustment.

VTA and SRS are two parameters that can't " live " one with out the other: when you change VTA you change too SRA and the other way around too.
In both cases always affect the overhang that could be more critical ( as I posted here ) than changes in VTF that affect too overhang. The right overhang always lower tracking distortions and minute overhang deviations increment in a severe way the tracking distortions all over the LP surface.

IMHO if we are making changes in VTA/SRA with out checking/new set up on overhang then what we are doing is only listening higher distortions but ( even if we like what we hear. ) that achieved " sweet spot " is totally FALSE or everything but sweet spot.

The name of the game in cartridge/tonearm set up ( as in almost any audio subject ) is: accuracy, with out it we have almost " nothing " but high distortions.

Btw, if I remember we need around a change of 4mm. in VTA for one degree change on SRA.

Regards and enoy the music,
R.

PS: ++++ " me Lp's just sound "off" regardless of SRA setting. " +++++

in a decent audio system and with decent system set up that could happen only if is a bad recording/LP or comes with a different recording equalization than the RIAA.

I'd say it's pretty well infinite. But the change in overhang as a result is so exponentially minute as to be irrelevant once it's been set with VTA in the ballpark.

Csontos, I don't think so but you could say the same thing about SRA as well. What percentage of 1 degree of SRA is adjusted for with fine VTA adjustment?

At those angles, the change in overhang would be on the molecular level.