The Pre32 came yesterday. Today I got it connected between the DAC and A32 and finally understand the word "layering." I was missing a LOT. I never knew a preamp could make such a difference. While waiting for the Pre32 to arrive I'd connected the DAC directly to the A32. The sound improved but there still wasn’t much increase in depth. But now there’s an increase in instrument separation & micro-details. Instrument and voice timbre is realistic with greatly improved attack and decay of acoustic instruments. The sub-woofer makes music sound more full bodied and the bass is so precise and visceral. The sound-stage is wider & deeper. Listening to choirs and orchestras is breathtaking. Ambience is revealing. Lovin’ it!!! Sure burn-in will just make it sweeter.
Stillpoints Ultra6 reference vibration controlers?
Category: Amplifiers
I started to work in audio in july 1998. I remember that the first day I started I had a blocknote with me. I started in room 1 of the loudspeakers. Here it all started to write down properties of each individual tool. For a long time I was addicted to audio. I was busy with audio for 80 hours a week. It was never enough for me.
Almost 17 years later I have done thousands of tests in audio. From the mid level till highend. I became aware that I could judge and understand audio a lot more easy than all my collegues. But I never understood why. Untill in 2012 I became aware that I have a photographic memory in sound. I trained this part of my brain for a long time. Every single audition I can recall. So a second audition I see in front of me and the first one is on the left side. Within a few tenths of a second I know already the difference between them.
When you are aware of all the properties of each individual 'tool' you will see and understand the patterns between them. And you will understand the connections between them. This means you understand how the stage and overall sound has been created. I can see 3-4 steps further than other people in audio can.
I judge every single tool on what I call Total Sound. Total Sound is like a blue print of the original sound. When I audition sets from 'new' clients, at shows or at another audio shop in almost all situations it is what I call 'incomplete'.
In most 'new' sets I need to bring in parts of Total Sound to make it complete. At the end it is so much more addictive to listen to any set I 'repaired'.
Parts of Total Sound:
- Soundrealism: you want and need an instrument to sound like
in real. I use Pass labs amps to the max for this. It is the
focus on sound of each different instrument and voice. For
example: you want to hear the difference between 2 acoustic
guitars of a recording. I always want to hear the full
pallet in the mid freq. The timbre is an essential part
of listening to music
- 3 dimensional soundstage: this is the most exiting part of
audio in general. This sets your beloved music in full 3D
in front of you. During listening you can focus on each
individual part of a recording.
- Intimate sound: instruments and voices are very small in
dimension and very direct in sound. You want a realistic
proportion of instruments and voices. Intimate sound has
a very big influence on our emotion.
- Blacks: The space between the instruments and voices with
their acoustic information during the recording. This is
level of physical appearance. You want to touch every single
instrument and voice of the recording. Germans use the word
'darstellung'.
- timing and speed: it is a very important part for authority
and control of the overall sound. Better timing will give
you less acoustic limitaions. But also a more natural sound.
Biside this you also can reveal more layers of the low freq.
- Resolution: you want to hear all details of the recording.
And it needs to be physical apparent.
- Air: This part gives the instruments and voices the freedom
during listening. Separation makes your music so much more
appealing.
- A big freq. response: When your system goes deeper in freq.
response you will hear more information of a recoding. This
also has a big influence on our emotion. People can hear
till maximum 20 khz. But...the freq. response above it
influences our brains.
- articulation of voices: how clear you can hear word
endings, breathing of singers and moving lips.
- heights: When I received 2 sets of the Audioquest Wel
Signature xlr's it became more clear than ever. It makes
listening to music different and even more appealing.
I wanted to tell this information first before I start with the review of the Ultra 6. Because it makes it much more easy to understand how I work. By using tools for their properties you always will reach a superior endresult in sound. For a perfectionist like me you always go to the max. There is no room for error.
When you have done thousands of tests like me, you are aware of how important and unique the working of Stillpoints are in your set. I am a stillpoint dealer and use many of them in my set. They are an 'essential' part for the absolute sound. Why? Because they can add 'new' qualities I could not create with other tools.
At this moment we speak I do a lot of research with new tools and systems. I call it creating a new 'statement' in sound. Because I want to reach a higher endresult than ever before regardless price in audio. It is a higher level of accuracy and realism than before.
Without Stillpoints I would not be there were I am at this moment. When you compare the Ultra 6 against the other Stillpoints you know how much better they are.
I put them under my Pass labs X350.5. They operate in a different league. They even bring your set into a new zone. Like it puts your set into pause and it sets your music free. Your stage becomes wider and deeper and you get more air around all instruments and voices.
The mid freq. becomes more involving than before. Also the authority and control of the mid freq. is more precise.
When you compare amps or sources which have a huge difference in price ( 2000 dollar against 10.000 dollar+) you will never have this difference in timing the Ultra 6 gives to you. It is mindblowing in what it does with the speed and timing. It becomes so much more accurate and refined.
I noticed that the sound of a piano and cello becomes so much more natural sounding.
In the high freq. you will reveal more details. And again the control and authority in the high freq. gets to a much higher level.
The low freq. go deeper than before with a much higher level of authority again. You hear more layers but beside this the natural sound of a bass drum has never sounded this 'real'.
I am the first person who bought then in the Netherlands. And I am thrilled to own them. They are a crucial part of my set. They will have an important part for me to be able to create a new 'statement'in sound.
When you ask me the question; are they expensive? You know they are even rather cheap for the quality and level they bring. I'll love them till death!
Sound&Vision Consulting 16-2-2015
I started to work in audio in july 1998. I remember that the first day I started I had a blocknote with me. I started in room 1 of the loudspeakers. Here it all started to write down properties of each individual tool. For a long time I was addicted to audio. I was busy with audio for 80 hours a week. It was never enough for me.
Almost 17 years later I have done thousands of tests in audio. From the mid level till highend. I became aware that I could judge and understand audio a lot more easy than all my collegues. But I never understood why. Untill in 2012 I became aware that I have a photographic memory in sound. I trained this part of my brain for a long time. Every single audition I can recall. So a second audition I see in front of me and the first one is on the left side. Within a few tenths of a second I know already the difference between them.
When you are aware of all the properties of each individual 'tool' you will see and understand the patterns between them. And you will understand the connections between them. This means you understand how the stage and overall sound has been created. I can see 3-4 steps further than other people in audio can.
I judge every single tool on what I call Total Sound. Total Sound is like a blue print of the original sound. When I audition sets from 'new' clients, at shows or at another audio shop in almost all situations it is what I call 'incomplete'.
In most 'new' sets I need to bring in parts of Total Sound to make it complete. At the end it is so much more addictive to listen to any set I 'repaired'.
Parts of Total Sound:
- Soundrealism: you want and need an instrument to sound like
in real. I use Pass labs amps to the max for this. It is the
focus on sound of each different instrument and voice. For
example: you want to hear the difference between 2 acoustic
guitars of a recording. I always want to hear the full
pallet in the mid freq. The timbre is an essential part
of listening to music
- 3 dimensional soundstage: this is the most exiting part of
audio in general. This sets your beloved music in full 3D
in front of you. During listening you can focus on each
individual part of a recording.
- Intimate sound: instruments and voices are very small in
dimension and very direct in sound. You want a realistic
proportion of instruments and voices. Intimate sound has
a very big influence on our emotion.
- Blacks: The space between the instruments and voices with
their acoustic information during the recording. This is
level of physical appearance. You want to touch every single
instrument and voice of the recording. Germans use the word
'darstellung'.
- timing and speed: it is a very important part for authority
and control of the overall sound. Better timing will give
you less acoustic limitaions. But also a more natural sound.
Biside this you also can reveal more layers of the low freq.
- Resolution: you want to hear all details of the recording.
And it needs to be physical apparent.
- Air: This part gives the instruments and voices the freedom
during listening. Separation makes your music so much more
appealing.
- A big freq. response: When your system goes deeper in freq.
response you will hear more information of a recoding. This
also has a big influence on our emotion. People can hear
till maximum 20 khz. But...the freq. response above it
influences our brains.
- articulation of voices: how clear you can hear word
endings, breathing of singers and moving lips.
- heights: When I received 2 sets of the Audioquest Wel
Signature xlr's it became more clear than ever. It makes
listening to music different and even more appealing.
I wanted to tell this information first before I start with the review of the Ultra 6. Because it makes it much more easy to understand how I work. By using tools for their properties you always will reach a superior endresult in sound. For a perfectionist like me you always go to the max. There is no room for error.
When you have done thousands of tests like me, you are aware of how important and unique the working of Stillpoints are in your set. I am a stillpoint dealer and use many of them in my set. They are an 'essential' part for the absolute sound. Why? Because they can add 'new' qualities I could not create with other tools.
At this moment we speak I do a lot of research with new tools and systems. I call it creating a new 'statement' in sound. Because I want to reach a higher endresult than ever before regardless price in audio. It is a higher level of accuracy and realism than before.
Without Stillpoints I would not be there were I am at this moment. When you compare the Ultra 6 against the other Stillpoints you know how much better they are.
I put them under my Pass labs X350.5. They operate in a different league. They even bring your set into a new zone. Like it puts your set into pause and it sets your music free. Your stage becomes wider and deeper and you get more air around all instruments and voices.
The mid freq. becomes more involving than before. Also the authority and control of the mid freq. is more precise.
When you compare amps or sources which have a huge difference in price ( 2000 dollar against 10.000 dollar+) you will never have this difference in timing the Ultra 6 gives to you. It is mindblowing in what it does with the speed and timing. It becomes so much more accurate and refined.
I noticed that the sound of a piano and cello becomes so much more natural sounding.
In the high freq. you will reveal more details. And again the control and authority in the high freq. gets to a much higher level.
The low freq. go deeper than before with a much higher level of authority again. You hear more layers but beside this the natural sound of a bass drum has never sounded this 'real'.
I am the first person who bought then in the Netherlands. And I am thrilled to own them. They are a crucial part of my set. They will have an important part for me to be able to create a new 'statement'in sound.
When you ask me the question; are they expensive? You know they are even rather cheap for the quality and level they bring. I'll love them till death!
Sound&Vision Consulting 16-2-2015
90 responses Add your response
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From what I read Lumin needs a wired ethernet connection and an iPad. I personally don't like anything made by "Apple." Have they worked out the app for an Android yet? My direct ethernet connection is in a room more than 50 yards (46 meters) from my stereo. I can't move it because the needs of the home office are more important and I won't run a 50 yard ethernet cable through my house. |
Wellcome in the ’real’ world. I am working in the world of sound&vision of over 18 years of time. What influenced me most were the people who were screwed by other audio shops. These situations have become more regulary than in the past. This made me aware that the world of audio world needs to change. This way audio is being sold these days within 10 years the market in audio will become so much smaller. It is not the question if it should be changed and done differently. But when it will be done differrently. This is the only option. Because at the end you cannot life anymore of the older getting audio users. The younger people are not that interested anymore. There is only one way to change it and that is more and better quality. Emotion is something we all like and prefer. When people hear music played at a much higher level in emotion the interest becomes a lot bigger. I have seen this when I let people hear the difference between 2d and 3d sound. The way people react and respond to 3 dimensional sound says it all. Beside this audio needs a better control about the acoustics. Because this is the biggest limitation. Spending thousands of dollars on audio does not garantee you anything. It does not solve the acoustic problems. Like all the acoustic pannels will not make a huge improvement. First you need to give people a superior level in sound qualtiy for a price many people can afford. Most people are not able to look further. Most people are thinking and working at short distance. This is why things don’t change that fast. It needs to change because there is no other option. You cannot run away from it. At the end it will catch you and then it is too late. You need to do it now!! |
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Yes, I saw Lumin products on your facebook page. I’m confused. What’s the difference between the media library, a universal network player, a universal audiophile network player, a universal network renderer/streamer, and a universal network player system? And since you don’t connect these streamers by USB, how are they connected in your system? Maybe that’s why I had little interest because they seem so much more complicated. Are all the Lumin products good products. I see their prices span from $1200 - $12,500. What makes one better than the others? Does each model come with a Lumin power supply or do you have to pay extra for that? |
It is very easy to explain. I am perfectionist, this means I compare everything and only the best counts. In my world you can throw away all the rest. Because it does not add anything. Why you would choose for less? When I sold my Meridian 800Daxv4 in 2012 I wanted to buy a networkplayer/streamer. But....in the beginning I only auditoned players with a seperate dac. They all had the same kind of sound. No diversity in the middle freqeuncies. I thought; this is not what I want. It took time to understand why I hated all the networkplayers/streamers. When I auditoned one with an inbuild dac I learend that diversity is possible. I bought an Olive 06HD in 2013. In 2014 I had contact with some developers in dacs and audio. And they told me that USB is a big laugh in audio. And that it is not the best way to connect a networkplayer. And this is the reason why you hear the clinical sound without the layers. Like you transport 0/1 but at the the end you miss some 0/1. People think a standalone dac is the best way to go ( Like I thought in the past as well) and it will give you the best sound. In my world what matters is what I can hear and audition. What I heard is an awefull sound without emotion. Based on the fact that most people have no reference frame you can sell them everything you want. Ans you can say what ever you want. But based on my knowledge and insight this will never work. I know what I hear and what I miss. And loser sound is only made for F. Losers by F. Losers. I hate any kind of inferior sound. You can see a standalone dac as a ship with fugitives from Syria to Greece. In the beginning there are 100 fugitives. At the end only 80 will come to Greece at the end of the trip. I am a Lumin dealer, and for me it is very easy to outperform the loser dacs. Because each person will choose for the most convincing and emotional sound. This makes it so easy what diversity in the middle frequencies does with your emotion. This is what audio makes so easy. Creating the best sound, it always will win. |
bo1972, you would never have seen anyone at a show carrying my DAC around because it weighs a few ounces less than 45 pounds (20 kg). Like I said earlier, I don't stream music. I've either replaced my vinyl albums with their CD counterpart or ripped my vinyl to my computer as FLAC files with "Audacity." As I mentioned above, all of my music is stored on my computer and JRiver Media Center makes it very easy to listen to what I want, when I want, how I want.
I was a teenager in the 70's when vinyl was king but I don't miss the crackles and pops. And I was floored when you said you spend 200 euro's ($223 US dollars) every month on music. That is not an option for me. With my computer I can listen to the music I choose to hear, not what some server thinks I might want to hear. I'm very happy with my DAC and I don't see myself replacing it unless it stops working. Contentment. That's where I am right now and with burn-in it's only going to get better. |
Music is my biggest passion in life. I spend about 200 euro’s on new music each month Most music I buy at Qobuz ( biggest website for hi-res audio in the world) And I also buy music at other websites like : Acoustic Sounds, Prostudiomaster, HDtracks and HighResaudio. But.....most people make the same mistake these days. They use a separate dac often with USB. You will loose diversity in the middle freqencies. This means you will loose most of the emotion of the music. At shows many times you see peple with laptops or Imac with a dac. In all these situations ( NO ONE ACCEPTED) you hear a sound without emotion. You need a networkplayer with an inbuild dac to be able to hear all the diversity and layers of the music. |
My MA 300's are now connected to the Primare A32 (no subwoofer). The MA's have almost 20 hours burn-in and sound so good already I can barely imagine the upper and mid level getting much better. But I definitely hear where the bass could improve. I'm waiting for the Pre32 to be delivered then I'll connect the sub through the pre-out. Presently using the DAC as a temporary preamp. It's going to be a LONG time before I get 400 hours of listening on the MA's, but I know I'm going to love every second of it. bo1972, you were also right, there's no more warm, veiled sound and I'm loving the clarity and realistic timbre of the speakers and power amp combination. |
I sold many Gold speakers already. The speaker even sound good out of the box. But after about 400 hours ( my clints always play as much as possible even during the night) the low freq. will become tighter and faster. I can promiss you that even with my Pl-500 and 2 times 700 watt out of my Pass you still need a subwoofer. Because stealth low frequency makes the stage wider and deeper. And 16hz is a lot deeper than how deep the Pl-500 gan go. The biggest difference is that is goes a lot deeper even at very low volume. The Pl-500 only can play at 22hz when you play at extreme volumes. With stealth low frequency instruments become more palpable as well. You hear more decay. The soudn becomes more musical. I use my Platinum sub from 16-140hz. When you use lasers and a S.A.P.-measurement you create a superior timing. This makes it able to use the sub till a much higher frequency range like 140hz. When I switch off my sub, you go to a much lower level of quality. This is why almost all my stereo clients play with a subwoofer. Because when you auditioned stealth low freqency, this is what you want. |
Received the MA Gold 300's today and they are burning in. Won't do any critical listening until they've run 100 hours. Out of the box the bass is impressive (who needs a subwoofer when you can hear and feel this)? The mid range and highs definitely will need time to develop. Expecting the Primare A32 Thursday & Pre32 within the next 2 weeks. |
When you don't like a too warm sound, the Primare sound you will like. It has a lot more details compared to Marantz. But it still has a musical sound. And a dood 3D sound. I think the older Pre 30 and 33.2 is a combo. And when you have more money an A32 is an option. Don't focus too much on my S.A.P. I think the older Primare is the best option for you. I hope you can find it overthere for good prices. goodluck |
Okay, bo1972, it seems no power amp + pre amp combo you've mentioned has a pre out or subwoofer out (something that is a "must have" for me). Onkyo does but you say it's no good without your S.A.P. measurements. Each time I listen to the Marantz I realize just how warm it sounds." Guess I chose to ignore all the reviews that described it as "warm."
I sold a pair of Audeze LCD-X's because they sounded to me like the music was being played under a blanket. I don't like warm. I realize that now. And yes, I still want a 3-D sound stage. So
I guess I'll be doing a lot of headphone listening for the next few
months until your marketing specialist markets your knowledge. |
The I32 is very poor in sound. I don't sell the new Primare products. When you compare the older and the new Primare products you can hear that they went a big step back. Their class D amps sounds dead. What you see often these days is that manufacturers use different and often cheaper parts which don't improve the sound. At the end audio is all about quality and diversity in the middle frequencies. When you go from this path you will loose. Primare is having a difficult times, this is also based on the fact that they choose the wrong path to choose for class D. I have spoken to several Primare delers and they all think the older Primare was better. It is difficult to understand why they go on with class D. They lost a lot of their sales compared to the past. And shops loose their interest in Primare. |
I sold many Gold 200 as well. These are a lot more easy to place in a room compared to the Gold 300. That is why I said: test it out yourself. And you will findout if it works. When we compared the first Platinum series en old Gold series of MA with Pathos, Primare and tubes we prefered the Pathos to be the best option of 2 worlds. But the Primare was in controle, dynamics en details the best. But we prefered the sound of the Pathos. I also could create stage depth with tubes amps. But I missed the timing en details we could achieve with the Pathos and Primare. |
I only have experience with the GX300 monitor audio speakers but I find them very easy to drive and are not extremely sensitive to placement. You can put them almost anywhere, not up against the wall of course. I have tried them in several rooms and with 4 different amps, from 40 to 270 watts, both SS and tube. They just sound great. |
I did run an audio shop and I had over 30 pairs of different Monitor Audio loudspeakers. And we also had different tube amps. I did found the best combination in timing and control in the low frequencies. However I loved the combination with some Pathos amps. They better controled the Monitor Audio louspeakers. I think you should bring your loudspeaker to find out if the combination will work out. The Gold 300 is one of the more difficult Monitor Audio loudspeakers to control and adapt in a room. You need space and power. I created the best results with Gold 300 when I had a lot of current. Goodluck |
mewsickbuff, i own the Monitor Audio GX300's and it might be worth while for you to listen to the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL40. It is a David Berning OTL design. I see you are talking about Pass Labs so maybe not looking for tubes but this is so fast, it sounds like the best solid state I've ever heard. Plenty of power for the 90db 300's. |
In my world a subwoofer is only an option when you use S.A.P.-measurement. In all situations I never heard a full integration like we create with S.A.P. Beside this we are able to create the energy were it is at the recording. I always use a few songs to proof the integration and timing is not perfect. In my world there is no room for errors. Audio is my world is only focussed on the best possible. Second best is for losers in my world. You need us, but I am on the other side of the ocean. You will get a much lower result in sound. Soon we will have a website as well. With videoblogs. Also in english. We will show how big the differences are in the way we work, And the fact that we create a much higer level in sound compared to any other companyin the world. Audio needs to be played by shootouts. Because the best and most convincing sound always will be chosen over any inferior level in sound! |
Music without a subwoofer doesn't sound realistic to me. Even though the MA Gold 300's can play 30Hz the dB level is too soft. Rec out is not an option because the subwoofer doesn't tie in with the other speakers. So can you recommend a 3-D amp with a pre-out or subwoofer-out connection on the back panel? |
Rec out. To be honest I would never want to use a subwoofer without S.A.P-measurement. Because you will never get a perfect integration with your speakers. Even when you buy a subwoofer with roomcorrection it only can adjust the subwoofer a little to the room. But it still does not integrate like we do with S.A.P.-measurement. This is a totally different level of integration. I hated subwoofers for stereo use for a long time. Until I created stealth low frequency. This is the only way to create stealth low frequency with a subwoofer. In other sitations you easily can audition that it does not integate perfectly. This is F irritating during listening. And not relaxt! |
Don’t buy a Pass Labs integrated. I tested them a few times. I didn’t like them. This has nothing to do with the sound or stage. But based on the fact that the individual focus of instruments and voices is not as real and intimate as it should be. I had many conversations about this with Desmond of Pass Labs. In real instruments and voices are a lot more intimate and direct. I owned the Pass Labs XP-20, it was not good enough. Pass Labs creates stunning amps and good Pre amps. But not stunning ones. Audio is in my world only about the best ones, the rest doesn't matter. The primare I30 has not enough power for your speakers. Even the 11S3 is not enough. The Gold 300 also need space from the wall. |
I think the best option for you is to sell the Marantz. You need power for the Pl-300. You need to spend some extra money on an amp. Based on the fact that you do not have a lot of knowledge I will give you some advice you can use for yourself. Primare A32 and Pre30 is a very good option. To contol the Pl-300 and to create a deep and wide stage. Pathos Inpol-2 is also an option. You need to see for a used one. This one cab also create a 3D stage with the Pl-300 |
The 11S3 is an exeptional poor 2D amp. I have a shootout of the 11S3. I invited 2 of my clients who play with the Pl-200 at this moment. They played both with Marantz 2D amps. I wanted to bring them to a 3 dimensional stage. So we did a shootout. You have to translate the text. After the shootout they both directly sold their Marantz amps. This is what 3 dimensional sound does with people. The 11S3 plays a full flatt 2D stage with the GX-200. The Onkyo TX-NR3010 with a S.A.P. measurment outperformed the 11S3 in stereo use with ease. The 11S3 is e 2D hifi stereo amp. This is F insane to be used with any Monitor Audio loudspeaker. You must be a fool to use this combination. https://www.facebook.com/bobby.kingma/media_set?set=a.10155458418710083.1073741874.588405082&typ... https://www.facebook.com/bobby.kingma/media_set?set=a.10155460238350083.1073741875.588405082&typ... Audio always need to used by it’s properties. The Marantz has the d.n.a. of a 2D stage. You cannot change this. Each Monitor Audio loudspeaker goes to a much higher level when you use a 3D amp. That is why I only use amps which are able to create a deep and wide stage. |
Deal for the PL 300’s fell through (beaten by a higher bidder). I’ll be receiving a new pair of MA Gold 300’s (2015 edition) instead. They’ll be paired with a Marantz 11S3 integrated which I bought last year. b01972, I believe you said Marantz’s are 2D. Are you 100% sure? If so, what would you recommend as a replacement in it’s price range? |
When you work and think by Tru-Fi you can reach a superior level out of audio compared to the limited trial and error way everybody is using. By working by Tru-Fi you can use all the properties/talents the MA speakers own. I create a much higher level and quality out of any Monitor Audio speaker. You cannot compare it with the sound and quality all other shops are able to reach. This level I can create has no competition. I has a higher level of emotion and intensity. We create and sell a sound instead of brands. Monitor Audio is only a part of our sound. The main focus is always the sound. All the different parts in a set are only used by their properties. We are only interested in properties, the rest doesn’t matter. We collect properties with them we build our sound. This is a totally different approach in audio. But in endresult and quality superior to any system you could create by trial and error. |
I own the Pl-500 as well, but Monitor Audio make many great speakers. I have sold hundreds of MA speakers in over 9 years of time. In the last 7 years I sold them all with a 3 dimensional stage. This is what the MA speakers make so special compared to all other brands. Most shops do not have the knowledge to think in properties. They really don’t F know which brands are able to create a 3 dimensional stage. The most dissapointing part is that in most shops in the world MA speakers are demoed always in 2D. This way they never can demo why they are so much more special compared to all the other brands. |